The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
View Poll Results: Guess the sex of Guillaume and Stéphanie's first baby!
Boy 38 55.88%
Girl 25 36.76%
Twins - Boy/Boy 0 0%
Twins - Boy/Girl 3 4.41%
Twins - Girl/Girl 2 2.94%
Voters: 68. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #141  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:57 AM
SLV's Avatar
SLV SLV is offline
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 1,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Apparently, the Catholic Church only permits a maximum of one man and one woman in the role of baptismal sponsor. Baptismal sponsors are required to be confirmed Catholics.

Non-Catholics who were baptized as Christians are permitted to serve as witnesses to the baptism.

Code of Canon Law - IntraText

Judging from a quick search, it seems there are arguments amongst Catholics as to if it it is appropriate to label the non-sponsor baptismal witnesses as "godparents" or not. My guess is that this is the reason why some Catholic royals are said to have two "godparents" while others are said to have several.
But how strickt is this rule?
My husband is catholic and my girls are baptised. We chose the godparents but the priest didn't check if they were catholic too. In each case one of them was, the other wasn't. No problems at all. So, technically they could choose whoever they wanted, as long as the godparents themselves can accept the role.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:24 AM
kathia_sophia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: South, Portugal
Posts: 2,766
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV View Post
But how strickt is this rule?
My husband is catholic and my girls are baptised. We chose the godparents but the priest didn't check if they were catholic too. In each case one of them was, the other wasn't. No problems at all. So, technically they could choose whoever they wanted, as long as the godparents themselves can accept the role.
I agree with you. Wasn't that what happened with Crown Princess Victoria on the baptism of Princess Eleonore of Belgium? They had two "sponsors" as godparents, and Victoria was a godparent "witness".



Besides, on a different perspective. Isn't Guillaume a godparent of one of WA and Maxima's daughters? (was it Ariane?). He is catholic and still was a godfather of someone from a different faith. The same with King Felipe and his godchild Prince Vincent.
__________________

__________________
♫A man is not old until regrets take the place of dreams.♥
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:11 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV View Post
But how strickt is this rule?
My husband is catholic and my girls are baptised. We chose the godparents but the priest didn't check if they were catholic too. In each case one of them was, the other wasn't. No problems at all. So, technically they could choose whoever they wanted, as long as the godparents themselves can accept the role.
From what I can see, your choice complied with the Catholic church's rule of choosing either one or two baptismal sponsors (872-873) who are required to be Catholic (874 §1), so naturally there were no problems.

Code of Canon Law - IntraText

Apparently your non-Catholic godparent was either recognized as a "witness of the baptism" (874 §2), if they were a baptized non-Catholic Christian, or not recognized by the Catholic church, if they were not a baptized Christian.

Their rules, strictly speaking, apply to "sponsors" and "witnesses". The term of "godparent" is not in the English translation, so I am assuming that Catholic parents can indeed interpret the term any way they want but godparents who are not sponsors or witnesses will not be given any recognition by their church.

Can. 872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.

Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.

Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

§2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
Besides, on a different perspective. Isn't Guillaume a godparent of one of WA and Maxima's daughters? (was it Ariane?). He is catholic and still was a godfather of someone from a different faith. The same with King Felipe and his godchild Prince Vincent.
In those cases, the requirements for godparents were determined by the Calvinist and Lutheran churches respectively, as those were the churches into which those children were being baptized, not by the Catholic church.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:25 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,426
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathia_sophia View Post
I agree with you. Wasn't that what happened with Crown Princess Victoria on the baptism of Princess Eleonore of Belgium? They had two "sponsors" as godparents, and Victoria was a godparent "witness".



Besides, on a different perspective. Isn't Guillaume a godparent of one of WA and Maxima's daughters? (was it Ariane?). He is catholic and still was a godfather of someone from a different faith. The same with King Felipe and his godchild Prince Vincent.
King Felipe of Spain is also godparent of Princess Ingrid Alexandra of Norway
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:25 AM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 5,676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In those cases, the requirements for godparents were determined by the Calvinist and Lutheran churches respectively, as those were the churches into which those children were being baptized, not by the Catholic church.
Exactly; and for the Protestant Church of the Netherlands, it's rather simple: there is no requirement for baptismal sponsors. The only formally relevant people at the baptism beside the baby itself are the parents; at least one needs to be able to answer the questions asked - to do so that parent needs to be 'confirmed' (a public confession of faith - typically after age 18) but in the Dutch Reformed Church previously the requirement was only being baptized yourself.

Anything else is just personal preference. From my experience, attending christenings in a wide variety of local churches, the (only) honorary role at a christening is typically the one carrying the baby into the church (sometimes at the start of the service and having the baby on your lap the whole service; and sometimes when the child is to be christened). Many protestant children don't even have 'godparents'.

So, Willem-Alexander en Máxima could do as they pleased and only needed to make sure that the local vicar conducting the service was on board with the role they wanted to give some people during the service - but their names most likely weren't registered by the church.
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:43 PM
SLV's Avatar
SLV SLV is offline
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 1,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
From what I can see, your choice complied with the Catholic church's rule of choosing either one or two baptismal sponsors (872-873) who are required to be Catholic (874 §1), so naturally there were no problems.

Code of Canon Law - IntraText

Apparently your non-Catholic godparent was either recognized as a "witness of the baptism" (874 §2), if they were a baptized non-Catholic Christian, or not recognized by the Catholic church, if they were not a baptized Christian.

Their rules, strictly speaking, apply to "sponsors" and "witnesses". The term of "godparent" is not in the English translation, so I am assuming that Catholic parents can indeed interpret the term any way they want but godparents who are not sponsors or witnesses will not be given any recognition by their church.

Can. 872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.

Can. 873 There is to be only one male sponsor or one female sponsor or one of each.

Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

§2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.




In those cases, the requirements for godparents were determined by the Calvinist and Lutheran churches respectively, as those were the churches into which those children were being baptized, not by the Catholic church.
There was no difference made. No questions asked about their faith, at all. So in all three cases both godparents were registered as sponsors, not one as sponsor and one as witness.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 05-14-2020, 12:51 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV View Post
There was no difference made. No questions asked about their faith, at all. So in all three cases both godparents were registered as sponsors, not one as sponsor and one as witness.
Interesting, so there are apparently Catholic churches whose registries do not comply with their own church's rules (as I have checked that the above link is indeed the Vatican's official and current code).
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 05-14-2020, 01:04 PM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 10,302
There are a lot of liturgical abuses within individual dioceses. All bishops and priests are not created equal unfortunately.

Both John Paul II and Benedict XVI were trying to address these inconsistencies and abuses, but many of them are too deep rooted.

A sponsor/god parent should ideally be a Catholic. That is the entire point of having a god parent-to be a spiritual father/mother to a baptized person. And at the very very least they should be a practicing Christian.
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice". Martin Luther King Jr. 1929-1968
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 06-05-2020, 12:50 AM
theroyalfly's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: N/A, Australia
Posts: 1,423
I know this is wishful thinking but I hope Prince Charles' godparents are Leonor, Elisabeth and Amalia.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gender, names, and godparent guessing for Harry and Meghan's first child IloveCP The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family 1211 07-05-2019 06:04 AM
Gender, Name and Godparent Speculation for Mary's Second Pregnancy Zonk Crown Prince Frederik, Crown Princess Mary and Family 1185 07-01-2007 07:00 AM
Gender, Name and Godparent Speculation for Mary's First Pregnancy Jasl Crown Prince Frederik, Crown Princess Mary and Family 443 01-21-2006 06:47 AM




Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes anastasia 2020 archie mountbatten-windsor armstrong-jones background story british royal family canada china chinese commonwealth countries coronavirus customs daisy dna doll duke of sussex earl of snowdon emperor fantasy movie general news thread george vi gustaf vi adolf hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume house of windsor interesting introduction jack brooksbank jewellery jewelry king edward vii książ castle line of succession list of rulers maxima meghan markle monarchy nepal nepalese royal family prince charles of luxembourg princess ariane princess chulabhorn princess dita princess elizabeth princess laurentien princess of orange queen consort royal ancestry royal balls royal court royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royal wedding russian court dress spain speech stuart sussex suthida swedish queen taiwan thailand tips tradition united states of america von hofmannsthal wedding gown


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:35 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×