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  #21  
Old 09-19-2020, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
What...SERIOUSLY? Then why was he dressed in traditional baptismal robes? When did the "real" event take place and why wasn't it announced?

I find this difficult to understand or believe. The RTL newscaster stated very specifically that the baby has "TODAY received the Holy Sacrament" and that " the future Head of State was TODAY welcomed into the Catholic Faith".

For a Catholic there is only one Sacrament of Baptism not two. A candidate for Baptism is never anointed separately from his/ her baptism.

It all takes place at the same time. I think the baby was baptized DURING the Mass, which is what happened with the Monaco twins.

The other explanation of a prior, secret baptism for the Heir simply makes no sense imo.
On social networks of the Luxembourg Monarchy it is written that the photos are of the baptism of Prince Charles. It doesn't make sense that he had a secret christening before.

Video:



More information, photos and video on the website of the Luxembourg Monarchy:
http://www.monarchie.lu/fr/actualite...les/index.html
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  #22  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:16 PM
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Thank you for further discussion and clarification. So this was obviously the Baptism, as the anointing with oil seen in the video. Christening or "naming" could have been included or not with today's Baptism. Of course, none of this should detract from the beauty of today's ceremony. Again, so happy for Guillaume and Stephanie and adorable baby Prince Charles!
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  #23  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
She is not a nun but an oblate or a consecrated virgin. Therefore she is entitled to civilian clothes.
How does that exactly work? Typically it is stated that she is 'a religious sister'; I assumed Roman Catholic Religious Sisters would be nuns but look forward to learn more about this phenomenon.
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  #24  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:21 PM
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How does that exactly work? Typically it is stated that she is 'a religious sister'; I assumed Roman Catholic Religious Sisters would be nuns but look forward to learn more about this phenomenon.
Quote:
A Catholic nun is a woman who lives as a contemplative life in a monastery which is usually cloistered (or enclosed) or semi-cloistered. Her ministry and prayer life is centered within and around the monastery for the good of the world. She professes the perpetual solemn vows living a life according to the evangelical counsels of poverty, celibacy, and obedience. Check out the Carmelite Nuns of Baltimore for example.
A Catholic sister is a woman who lives, ministers, and prays within the world. A sister's life is often called "active" or "apostolic" because she is engaged in the works of mercy and other ministries that take the Gospel to others where they are. She professes perpetual simple vows living a life according to the evangelical counsels of poverty, celibacy, and obedience. Check out the IHM Sisters of Monroe, Michigan for example.

https://anunslife.org/how-to-become-a-nun/sister-or-nun


The simplest explanation I could find for people.
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  #25  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Thank you for further discussion and clarification. So this was obviously the Baptism, as the anointing with oil seen in the video. Christening or "naming" could have been included or not with today's Baptism. Of course, none of this should detract from the beauty of today's ceremony. Again, so happy for Guillaume and Stephanie and adorable baby Prince Charles!
In the Catholic religion, christening and baptism are different words for the same event. There is also no separate naming ceremony.

The baby is anointed with oil, baptized with water, and called by his full given name all at the same ceremony.

I hope Stephanie and Gui will have at least one more child but even if they don't, they have every right to be thrilled. Their first born son is perfection.
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  #26  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Elektra View Post
Apologies for being slightly off topic: there is indeed an Abbaye de Clairvaux in France Confusion between Clervaux and Clairvaux might happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clairvaux_Abbey


So happy to see the family gathering for a joyful event! Charles is so precious and chubby.
Maybe we should use the name 'Clerf' in that case, as was done in the RTL-German version.
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  #27  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post

For a Catholic there is only one Sacrament of Baptism not two. A candidate for Baptism is never anointed separately from his/ her baptism.

It all takes place at the same time. I think the baby was baptized DURING the Mass, which is what happened with the Monaco twins.

The other explanation of a prior, secret baptism for the Heir simply makes no sense imo.
Indeed, there is only one Sacrament of baptism, but when an emergency baptism ("ondoiement", in French) takes place, the anointing can be done in a separate mass or celebration after the baptism. There are rules for this case.

The french title for this video is "Messe d'action de grâce" (Thanksgiving mass) : https://www.rtl.lu/lifestyle/news/a/1577167.html

And the paper states :

Quote:
Fir 3 Auer Mëttes ware si op Clierf an d’Abtei bestallt, fir eng "Messe d'action de grâce pour le baptême de SAR le Prince Charles avec les rites complémentaires du baptême", sou deen offiziellen Titel vun de Feierlechkeete vun e Samschdeg de Mëtteg, gedeeft ass de Prënz Charel nämlech schonn, vum Kardinol.
No baptistery was seen on the pictures, so there was definitely no christening today.
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  #28  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:42 PM
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Monarchie.lu uses the phrase 'Bapteme' - and includes several pictures both outside and inside the church (including a GD family picture).
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  #29  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Monarchie.lu uses the phrase 'Bapteme' - and includes several pictures both outside and inside the church (including a GD family picture).
Indeed, but RTL states it was a "Messe d'action de grâce pour le baptême de SAR le Prince Charles avec les rites complémentaires du baptême", as it was written on the mass booklet. As it was a mass, it took place, in a logical way, in a church.
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  #30  
Old 09-19-2020, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
Indeed, but RTL states it was a "Messe d'action de grâce pour le baptême de SAR le Prince Charles avec les rites complémentaires du baptême", as it was written on the mass booklet. As it was a mass, it took place, in a logical way, in a church.
Yes, I don't think anyone suggested otherwise?! I was just pointing out that pictures taken within the church were include as the press only had pictures from outside...

Can you share a picture of the mass booklet?
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  #31  
Old 09-19-2020, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Yes, I don't think anyone suggested otherwise?! I was just pointing out that pictures taken within the church were include as the press only had pictures from outside...
I misunderstood your post. I am sorry for that.

Quote:
Can you share a picture of the mass booklet?
Unfortunately, I don't have any, just the quote from the Luxembourgish paper I shared.
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  #32  
Old 09-19-2020, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sancia View Post
Indeed, there is only one Sacrament of baptism, but when an emergency baptism ("ondoiement", in French) takes place, the anointing can be done in a separate mass or celebration after the baptism. There are rules for this case.

The french title for this video is "Messe d'action de grâce" (Thanksgiving mass) : https://www.rtl.lu/lifestyle/news/a/1577167.html

And the paper states :



No baptistery was seen on the pictures, so there was definitely no christening today.
But the Abbey obviously contains a baptistry. Just because no photos of it appeared yet in the media you have concluded that no baptism took place even though 1) the infant was dressed in the Nassau christening robes 2) Both sets of families including the godparents were present 3) The news media and more importantly the Official website of the Grand Ducal Court specifically stated that the child has RECEIVED THE SACRAMENT AND BEEN WELCOMED INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY, and 4) Never at no time has the Grand Ducal Court indicated that Charles was baptized in secrecy earlier?

Why are today's events being called the baby'actual Baptism and NOT simply a blessing as you indicate? None of the media or official websites report that the baby was not baptized but only blessed.

Not one.

I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree with it. The announcement in Luxembourg is that Prince Charles was actually baptized today.

The baptism took place within a Mass of Thanksgiving to God for the birth of the prince. I don't find it confusing at all.
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  #33  
Old 09-19-2020, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
But the Abbey obviously contains a baptistry. Just because no photos of it appeared yet in the media you have concluded that no baptism took place even though 1) the infant was dressed in the Nassau christening robes 2) Both sets of families including the godparents were present 3) The news media specifically stated that the child has RECEIVED THE SACRAMENT AND BEEN WELCOMED INTO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY, and 4) Never at no time has the Grand Ducal Court indicated that Charles was baptized in secrecy earlier?

Why are today's events being called the baby'actual Baptism and NOT simply a blessing as you indicate? None of the media or official websites report that the baby was not baptized but only blessed.

Not one.

I respect your opinion but I strongly disagree with it. The announcement in Luxembourg is that Prince Charles was actually baptized today.

The baptism took place within a Mass of Thanksgiving to God for the birth of the prince. I don't find it confusing at all.
RTL, the Luxemburgish media which has access to the best information from the court, writes that it was a "Messe d'action de grâce pour le baptême de SAR le Prince Charles avec les rites complémentaires du baptême". French is my native language and in French, "rites complémentaires du baptême" refer to the anointing, the giving of the candle and the white garnment. It nevers refers to the gesture with water. I have looked at every pic the medias have published : not a single one is showing little Charles receving water on his forehead. Not a single one. However, there are plenty of pics with the anointing, the white garnment and the candle. Here are some with the candle.

https://www.wort.lu/de/politik/die-t...135b92363fcf63

Usually, the date on the candle is the baptism date. On this pic, the date on the candle is his birth date. As we know HGD had an emergency C-section, my hypothesis is that there was some fear for his life or his health at birth, which have quickly disappeared as he was said to do well in the birth announcement. However, I stand with my take : he was not christened today but earlier. I thought on why the medias and the court used to word "baptism" : that was Charles's big day, a feast around him. Usually, when there is an ondoiement, as we say in French, there is a traditional feast, the same for any other baptism, the day the complementary rites are performed. A friend knew this for one of her sons.

So I stand with my take : "baptism" is, in prince Charles' case, a shortcut word for people unfamiliar with Catholic rites for such a situation.
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  #34  
Old 09-19-2020, 05:53 PM
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Charles is such an adorable baby! He seems to have been well behaved at the christening too. He seemed particularly interested in the candle being lit

I agree that it doesn't seem like they already had another ceremony because the photos show that - there wouldn't be much point in having a private ceremony and then doing the whole thing again when they've been there already.
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  #35  
Old 09-19-2020, 06:01 PM
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It makes sense if he had an emergency baptism.

If he was sick or a complication during his emergency birth they may have given him a baptism right there. It may explain why they didn't worry about waiting four months for this, if he had already been baptized.

In that case they would still have a proper ceremony and celebration after. To include the other rituals and remind those gathered of the sacrament. You simply don't do the anointing with the waters twice as that can only be done once in the catholic faith.

And as said, when an emergency baptism is held and then a secondary ceremony, the baptism date listed is the one of the original baptism. Would explain the earlier date on the candle here.
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  #36  
Old 09-19-2020, 07:06 PM
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If the baby had been previously already baptized, the Grand Ducal Court would have simply announced this. This Royal family is not given to secrecy and subterfuge.

Especially not about something as important as this major milestone in the birth of the future ruler of the GD of Luxembourg.

Today's event would not have been announcement as a "Sacrament". Baptism itself is a sacrament. A Thanksgiving Mass, or Te Deum, is not one of the 7 sacraments of the Church.

Charles was born by C-section but he was not ill or premature, which would indeed have mandated an immediate baptism. And most importantly, the Court would have announced that some later event was going to take place.

Most Catholic Royal and even non Royal baptisms take place during a Mass. I have never heard of announcing a "bapteme"...in which everything takes place EXCEPT the baptism.

It sounds completely bizarre in fact.
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  #37  
Old 09-19-2020, 07:48 PM
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What are the consequences if a baby is not baptized? This is not a part of the faith I practice, so I am unsure. Thank you.
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  #38  
Old 09-19-2020, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
What are the consequences if a baby is not baptized? This is not a part of the faith I practice, so I am unsure. Thank you.
Baptism serves two purposes. To welcome a new soul into the church but also to cleanse our souls of original sin. The sin of Adam and Eve is born within every human.

It was taught for centuries that anyone who was not baptized, even infants, would go to limbo. A state neither heaven nor hell.

In recent years the Pope released documents saying that the church believes that infants who have died before they were able to receive baptismal rights would be shown the grace of god and entrance into heaven. But that is their prayer, and not undoubted knowledge. As a Catholic we would still think it important to baptize our child early.

https://ca.reuters.com/article/idUSL2028721620070420


Quote:
If the baby had been previously already baptized, the Grand Ducal Court would have simply announced this. This Royal family is not given to secrecy and subterfuge.

Especially not about something as important as this major milestone in the birth of the future ruler of the GD of Luxembourg.

Today's event would not have been announcement as a "Sacrament". Baptism itself is a sacrament. A Thanksgiving Mass, or Te Deum, is not one of the 7 sacraments of the Church.

Charles was born by C-section but he was not ill or premature, which would indeed have mandated an immediate baptism. And most importantly, the Court would have announced that some later even was going to take place.

Most Catholic Royal and even non Royal baptisms take place during a Mass. I have never heard of announcing a "bapteme"...in which everything takes place EXCEPT the baptism.

It sounds completely bizarre in fact.
Its not subterfuge.

If there was some concern (he may have been perfectly healthy but they just worried about covid) they may have done an emergent baptism. That doesn't mean that today's baptism was fake, its just the second part of the ceremony. They would have only performed the basic anointing of the waters the first time, the rest of the traditions like the candle were not performed. And we done today.

Its not lying. They may simply not have wished to worry the public about the health of the baby. The baptism of the future Grand duke is important and the people indeed did get to be a part of it.

There has been no modern need for a catholic heir to have an emergent baptism. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Just it hasn't happened.

May not have happened. This may be indeed be a misreport but there is grounds for it to be true as well.
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  #39  
Old 09-19-2020, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
On social networks of the Luxembourg Monarchy it is written that the photos are of the baptism of Prince Charles. It doesn't make sense that he had a secret christening before.

Video:



More information, photos and video on the website of the Luxembourg Monarchy:
Baptême de S.A.R. le Prince Charles - Cour Grand-Ducale de Luxembourg - Septembre 2020
Thanks a lot so nice to see this happiness !
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  #40  
Old 09-20-2020, 12:13 AM
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Thank you for the video iris so sweet. The priest is very human. The baby looks just like his mother. I was surprised at the gown, our children had a much more elaborate gown and are not princes
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