The Value Of Monarchy

[Australian]

Do you think that the concept of royalty these days is relevant? Do you think that in this day and age, there should be such things as royal families?

 

[wymanda]

Australian,
I think it depends on each individual country and its people. Mind you, the Monarch's and their families provide a continuity that isn't there with elected presidents/prime ministers ect. Take for example when the American President came to Australia some years ago. He was told that he and his wife would be the guests of Mr Hawke & his lovely wife, Hazel. Instead he arrives to find his host to be Mr Keating & his non Australian wife, Anita.
When visiting Britain a foreign head of state/President knows that his hostess will be HM Queen Elizabeth & her husband the Duke of Edinburgh and he/she won't get any nasty surprises.

 

[gogm]

European monarchies are symbols of nationality and of social contract. The social contract the men show adherance to is attribted, if my memory is correct, to Chateaubriand (but I won't guarantee it). In that contract, a ruling class was given leisure to train for war and property to raise war horses. The people below got leadership and defense.

Louis XIV breached the contract to avoid a repitition of the Fronde where nobles attempted to overthrow the monarchy. The nobles had no function left so they weren't holding up their end of the contract, but they kept their wealth and privilege. The French people cancelled that contract in 1789.

This is why most royal men are seen in uniform, aboard men of war, or flying Panavia Tornado attack jets. Prince Charles or Prince Felipe is holding up his end of the contract. The European social contracts became very nice in the late 20th century, although they may be becoming more austere due to competition from lower wage nations. The social contract included higher educations for kids who passed the exams, help with medical care, and retirement. For us rugged individualist Americans, these ideas are strange, but they are de rigeur in Europe. The monarch symbolizes nationhood and much more.

I'll get off the soap box after saying something about nationhood. The Dutch set an environmental policy where enterprises were left free to meet the environmental policies set by the country as a whole. That is also strange in America where each group is out for its interest first and where environmental laws are prescriptive and created after bitter political winner-take-all duels and enterprises attempt to duck obligations and deny the obvious. The non-partisan monarch symbolizes a people who can work together — nationhood.

 

[Dennism]

This is why most royal men are seen in uniform, aboard men of war, or flying Panavia Tornado attack jets.

Well, this is something I hope will end soon.

 

[wymanda]

Well, this is something I hope will end soon.

Are you saying that Princes like Charles, Andrew, Frederick & Felipe who have earned rank in the armed forces should be stopped wearing uniform??

 

[Humera]

Countries like Canada are in a precarious position. We have a queen but ask most Canadians and they'll tell you that she doesnt play any significant, if any, role in their lives. Some will say its nice to maintain traditional ties with the "mother country" others want the link severed. We've even had politicians who refused to take the oath of allegiance to the Queen while being sworn in as members of parliament. Since there's a large population of Canadians of non-European decent, many of them simply dont feel an attachment to Queen Elizabeth. I was watching a story on the news a couple of months ago about a guy who was raised in Canada but refused to take his citizenship oath because he felt that the British monarchy symbolized exploitation and oppression of millions of people around the world. (you have to swear allegiance to Queen Elizabeth in your canadian citizenship oath)
Australian you'd probably relate to this. How do most Australians feel about it?

 

[saxon]

here in Australia its very similar to Canada in that most young people don't feel an attachment to Queen Elizabeth and the Royal Family, although we failed to become a republic in the last referendum that was mainly to do with the model of a republic we were asked to vote on and not an underlaying loyalty to the Monarchy, its only a matter of time before we drop the Monarchy. I think swearing allegiance to the Queen has been taken out of the Australian Citizen Oath, though I could be wrong

 

[Dennism]

Are you saying that Princes like Charles, Andrew, Frederick & Felipe who have earned rank in the armed forces should be stopped wearing uniform??

No, if they want to that is up to them.

 

[Australian]

Well yes, this issue has been a very popular one. We had a referendum a few years ago and it turned out that most Aussies wanted the Queen. Not because they wanted to keep the monarchy but because of other policies that came along with it. But now, it is safe to say that most Australains want a republic, with a new flag minus the union jack. We are independant in every sense of the word but technically, we arent. Some aussies want to keep their ties with Britain becuase of history, The results are borderline to eachother on whether the monarchy stays or goes. A lot of Aussies(not all) think Queen Elizabeth doesnt play a big role and i guess she doesnt- how can you be head of state of a country that is lightyears away? She gets informed of the goings on but you need to actually be here to understand. It is predicted by a credible source that within the next 5 years, Australia will become a republic.
Most of us want an Aussie to open Olympic games and to be head of state, not a non-aussie. But i also think we should not lose all ties with britian if we do become a republic because of the jistory factor.

 

[Australian]

i think it could be taken out, saxon, im not sure, but i know that at citizenship ceremonies, the Aussie national anthem is played and so is the British one.

 

[Humera]

I was actually surprised that Australia still has the union jack on the its flag. Canada got its own flag during the 1960s. It was a huge debate ofcourse between traditionalits who were pro-British and those who wanted a flag that was uniquely Canadian. We got our own anthem long before that. We, however, have had no referendums regarding the monarchy issue. Canada's also in a unique position because of French-Canadians. France and Britain are technically the two "founding nations" of Canada. There are French Canadians who'd like to see the link with the British monarchy severed. When the Queen was last here in 2002, there was a group of French Canadians who showed up to protest her visit.
But it sounds to me like there's a lot of debate taking place in Australia. Nothing so serious is happening here. Perhaps because most Canadians feel that we are a fully independent nation as it is. Ofcourse that doesnt mean that we dont have people who'd like the Queen to go. I dont think, however, that Canada would become a republic if we were to drop the queen. Our style of government is closer to the British Parliamentary system than the American republic. I think most Canadians would like it to stay that way.

 

[Australian]

Well today Australia votes for the election. If Labor wins, we get rid of John howard and welcome Mark Latham. If Latham wins election, we would most probably say goodby to Queen Elizabeth. We find out results tonight

 

[hillary_nugent]

here in Australia its very similar to Canada in that most young people don't feel an attachment to Queen Elizabeth and the Royal Family, although we failed to become a republic in the last referendum that was mainly to do with the model of a republic we were asked to vote on and not an underlaying loyalty to the Monarchy, its only a matter of time before we drop the Monarchy. I think swearing allegiance to the Queen has been taken out of the Australian Citizen Oath, though I could be wrong

I took the Australia citizen oath this year and i do not recall anything in reference to the Queen so i think they have indeed removed such allegiance from the oath we pledge before God or whatever religious leader you believe in...Being an Australian i feel absolutely NO attachment ot the Queen sometimes i forget she is head of this country altogether! hahaha

I want to get rid of John Howard! ^___^

 

[Australian]

Yeah i want Howard out as well, I dont like Latham but he is the lesser of the two evils hahaha

 

[HRH Kanga]

I would say no, but then again, I'm an American. Therefore, it is hard for me to understand since I don't live in a country that has a monarchy.

However, I do enjoy learning about the royal families of the world.

 

[Sean.~]

Australian,
I think it depends on each individual country and its people. Mind you, the Monarch's and their families provide a continuity that isn't there with elected presidents/prime ministers ect. Take for example when the American President came to Australia some years ago. He was told that he and his wife would be the guests of Mr Hawke & his lovely wife, Hazel. Instead he arrives to find his host to be Mr Keating & his non Australian wife, Anita.
When visiting Britain a foreign head of state/President knows that his hostess will be HM Queen Elizabeth & her husband the Duke of Edinburgh and he/she won't get any nasty surprises.

Yes, they do provide a continuity, and in more ways than one. More specifically, I think that with increased homogenization in the 'global culture', and the push towards more and more economic, political, and social integration, (eg. European Union), the existing monarchies will become even more relevant. They will serve a huge 'cultural' purpose, and people will help provide people with a sense of national idenity in the age of disappearing borders & chaning identies. A sense of cutural and national continuity, if you will.

 

[wymanda]

Yeah i want Howard out as well, I dont like Latham but he is the lesser of the two evils hahaha

Thank the Lord that isn't going to happen! Howard & the Liberal Party returned by an increased majority.

 

[hillary_nugent]

Yeah i want Howard out as well, I dont like Latham but he is the lesser of the two evils hahaha

He's going to win...DAMN! Another more years for him to unleash his evilness hahahaha...oh well at least Rove can continue to hassle him to go on his show...hahaha...by the way this may seem irrelevant but does the Queen vote for our prime minister? does that woman do anything related to the election???

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

Do you think that the concept of royalty these days is relevant? Do you think that in this day and age, there should be such things as royal families?

The only thing that matters is that I care about royalty (JK!)

 

[timtonruben359]

I was actually surprised that Australia still has the union jack on the its flag. Canada got its own flag during the 1960s. It was a huge debate ofcourse between traditionalits who were pro-British and those who wanted a flag that was uniquely Canadian. We got our own anthem long before that. We, however, have had no referendums regarding the monarchy issue. Canada's also in a unique position because of French-Canadians. France and Britain are technically the two "founding nations" of Canada. There are French Canadians who'd like to see the link with the British monarchy severed. When the Queen was last here in 2002, there was a group of French Canadians who showed up to protest her visit.
But it sounds to me like there's a lot of debate taking place in Australia. Nothing so serious is happening here. Perhaps because most Canadians feel that we are a fully independent nation as it is. Ofcourse that doesnt mean that we dont have people who'd like the Queen to go. I dont think, however, that Canada would become a republic if we were to drop the queen. Our style of government is closer to the British Parliamentary system than the American republic. I think most Canadians would like it to stay that way.

Getting rid of the monarchy here in Canada is really a non-issue at the moment. Most Canadians don't care one way or another. In 2002 polls showed that about 50% of the population wished the monarchy to continue and about 42% wished Canada to become a republic, however, 82% felt that debating the future of the monarchy in Canada was not an important issue.

Some say Canadians still tend to like the pomp and ceremony associated with the monarchy. A few months back there was a scandal in the Governor General's office, the Queen's representative in Canada, when it was discovered that under the present Governor General, Adrienne Clarkson, the office's budge rose by 200% since she took office. Many Canadians called for the end of the office, yet there was no real calls to remove the Queen as head of state.

Is the monarchy relevant in Canada today? Probably not. God Save the Queen is only sung on extreemly formal occassions, the Queen has been stripped of most of her official duties, and the Governor General performs almost all of the duties of the Queen. However, the Queen is still well liked in Canada and her visits, which occur every 2 to 5 years, still draw large crowds. The biggest asset of the monarchy in Canada is that it draws attention to one of the few differences between us and the United States.

There is one massive hurdle Canada would have to overcome if it were to become a republic. The Queen's role, as Queen of Canada, and the office of the Governor General has been entrenched in our constitution since 1982. The only way we now can remove the Queen as head of state is if ALL levels of government are in agreement, meaning the Senate, Federal House of Commons and all the provincial governments. Plus they're would have to be a referendum, which are extreemly rare in Canada there has only been 4 I think in the whole history of Canada, where a clear majorty I think about 60% of the total population and 50% of the population of each provonce and territories would have to say yes to removing the Queen even before the provincial governments could begin to propose a bill to remove the monarchy. In Canada that level of agreement is nearly impossible, at least in this day and age.

The other problem is who would come up with a new system that ALL canadians could agree upon? And who would we make the head of state? Some old politician who has outserved his or her usefullness for anything else? One of the reasons our system works so well is that the Head of State and Head of Government are seperate.

 

[wymanda]

My viewpoint is "If it ain't broken, why fix it"!
All of the talk about a republic is fine but there are a lot of what might seem trivial things to consider if we were to make the change. There would be the cost of redrafting & reprinting legislation, government stationery, etc. The waste would be astronomical when you consider that all existing stationery would have to be shredded and legislation repealed, Parliament (both state & federal) would be tied up for years debating new legislation, etc, etc, etc.
Seems like a very expensive exercise to me when there is basically nothing wrong on a day to day basis with the current system.

 

[Humera]

Getting rid of the monarchy here in Canada is really a non-issue at the moment. Most Canadians don't care one way or another. In 2002 polls showed that about 50% of the population wished the monarchy to continue and about 42% wished Canada to become a republic, however, 82% felt that debating the future of the monarchy in Canada was not an important issue.

Some say Canadians still tend to like the pomp and ceremony associated with the monarchy. A few months back there was a scandal in the Governor General's office, the Queen's representative in Canada, when it was discovered that under the present Governor General, Adrienne Clarkson, the office's budge rose by 200% since she took office. Many Canadians called for the end of the office, yet there was no real calls to remove the Queen as head of state.

Is the monarchy relevant in Canada today? Probably not. God Save the Queen is only sung on extreemly formal occassions, the Queen has been stripped of most of her official duties, and the Governor General performs almost all of the duties of the Queen. However, the Queen is still well liked in Canada and her visits, which occur every 2 to 5 years, still draw large crowds. The biggest asset of the monarchy in Canada is that it draws attention to one of the few differences between us and the United States.

There is one massive hurdle Canada would have to overcome if it were to become a republic. The Queen's role, as Queen of Canada, and the office of the Governor General has been entrenched in our constitution since 1982. The only way we now can remove the Queen as head of state is if ALL levels of government are in agreement, meaning the Senate, Federal House of Commons and all the provincial governments. Plus they're would have to be a referendum, which are extreemly rare in Canada there has only been 4 I think in the whole history of Canada, where a clear majorty I think about 60% of the total population and 50% of the population of each provonce and territories would have to say yes to removing the Queen even before the provincial governments could begin to propose a bill to remove the monarchy. In Canada that level of agreement is nearly impossible, at least in this day and age.

The other problem is who would come up with a new system that ALL canadians could agree upon? And who would we make the head of state? Some old politician who has outserved his or her usefullness for anything else? One of the reasons our system works so well is that the Head of State and Head of Government are seperate.

Yeah I agree that most Canadians are probably indifferent about the whole royalty issue. Obviously because we feel that we're a fully independent nation. But I do think that we dont exactly need a Queen to differentiate us from Americans. Over the last couple of years we've had an immense opportunity to observe the many differences between Canada and our neighbours to the south. The two countries have different social, political, and religious values. Thats not to say that we dont have much in common ofcourse.
Its funny that you mentioned the Governor General. With the pomp and ceremony that sometimes surrounds her, you'd think she was a queen herself and I dont mean it in a bad way. I dont have anything against her really.

 

[wymanda]

Canada has a female Govenor General????

You really are ahead of Australia!

 

[timtonruben359]

Canada has a female Govenor General????

You really are ahead of Australia!

This actually our second female governor general our first female government was appointed in the late 1980s.

We also have a female Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada.

 

[Sancia]

In my opinion the notion of monarchy is irrelevant. I will explain: I'm fond of all kind of monarchies but I wouldn't live in a monarchist country. for me, the concept of equality is valuable for the head of state: even if the head of state has no power, he must be chosen for his qualities and not for his birth (born in a royal family).
Why am I also interested in royalty? Because I'm fond of genealogy and glittering. But I'm seeing royalty as something superficial, and I don't like the idea of being bound to a kind of life and value by the only fact your ancestors are royal. And I would add that I live in a republican country where most of the royalists support values I can't stand.

 

[Claire]

Living in South Africa, we do not see royalty that often. But when we do it is an event. I guess you might say that the royals do not need us as much as we need them.

I have attended many functions were people recieve praise for their work, and be the thanks coming from the mayor or president - nothing brightens someones day if they are recieving an award from a royal. Its as if soemone special has touched their lives, even if it was only for a moment, they were part of soemthing bigger than themselves. I suppose it is the fairy tale in us that still places a greater significence on royals than on other people - but I thank them for carrying on their work despite all the crap they have to go through simply to live their lives.

I think the greatest thing about royals is they unite us in ways that treaties and such can never. Just think of the Commonwealth - now there is a bunch of people who would never think of coming together for anything if they were not tied together under the British crown. Call it subjugation, or colonialism, we are united through history to the monarchy. And ties like that can never be removed.

The thing I like most of royals is that everyone appears to have their favourite or the one they relate most to. I once met an elderly gentleman who had specifically asked the British Embassy if Prince Edward could have a walkabout in South Africa, so that he could see him and tell him that he had met his parents and his grandparents and his great grand father when he was in England during the war and to tell him that he was proud of him. I suppose we taken our royals into our heart - they became part of our family.

 

[DKgirls]

We don't really know if it's that important!! But we like the Royal families a lot more than having for an example presidents!

But we're very happy that we have a Royal family here in Denmark...it's a great thing for the whole country to "admire" and they're a good image of the country in other countries

 

[mgrant]

Wow! This is very interesting. I've learned a lot from this thread.

The only countries where I think royalty is most likely to cease to exsist eventually is Canada and Australia mainly because of geographical location. I've read the discussions from the Canadians and Australians in this thread and it seems that this might happen sooner than later. I can see where some would want to maintain ties to the monarchy and I can also understand why some want to break away. Both are great countries and I hope for the best for both of them.

Meanwhile, here in the good ole USA, we continue to struggle along with one issue after the other but we're up the each and every challenge. I want to make everyone one laugh. There are bumper stickers on some cars that say: "Somewhere in Texas, there is a village missing an idiot."

 

[Australian]

haha thats funny, yes i have also learnt alot in this thread, and i cant believe i started the thread lol, ive never started any thread where it goes to 2 pages lol

 

[Humera]

I do have to say that when the Queen was in Canada on her Golden Jubilee tour in 2002, she was warmly received. She received flowers from thousands of children all over the country. But I suppose she wouldn't have been received any less warmly had she not been Queen of Canada anymore. The symbolic connection with the monarchy would still be there. It is said that the late Queen Mother had a special fondness for Canada and she must've made dozens of visits here. She also received very warm welcomes from most people here. Aside from these occasional visits though, the people of Canada have very little contact with the monarchy.