Royal Cyphers, Coronets, Arms and Monograms

[Beryl]

Hello all,
I have been wondering if the Markle family would be given a Coat of Arms? I recall that Mr. Middleton was granted a coat of arms prior to Kate's marriage and then her Coat of Arms was derived from his. I did read that he had to request it, though. Family Coats of Arms are not a tradition in America and since Mr. Markle is not a British subject I don't know if he would be eligible. Perhaps they might be granted one through their Irish heritage? It would be interesting to see what design elements they would use to represent California/L.A./the US.

[Osipi]

Seeing that both of Meghan's parents are American, its highly unlikely that they would be granted a British coat of arms. Its just not feasible from my understanding of how things work.

[Curryong]

As a member of the BRF Meghan will have to have a coat of arms, which is quartered with her husband's . Everyone does. Queen Letizia of Spain and Crown Princess Mary of Denmark were foreigners who had coats of arms granted to them. Sophie Wessex has a cost of arms I believe and Sarah of York certainly did.

She might have American or Californian symbols on it, or the classic drama mask, something like that.

[Osipi]

Would Meghan's family then be able to use that coat of arms? I kind of figured Meghan would have one but didn't think it would then be able to be used by her family.

Getting ready to check off my "learn something new everyday" box.

[Curryong]

It depends on who applies and who in the family it is granted to, I would guess. Didn't Sarah York have her own, with a bee in it as a symbol? Can't remember now, off to check!

Later: She did have a bee, but it was on her father's coat of arms first!

[Osipi]

Found it.

Grants of honorary arms to American citizens

American citizens may be granted honorary arms. They must meet the same criteria for eligibility as subjects of the Crown, and in addition must record in the official registers of the College of Arms a pedigree showing their descent from a subject of the British Crown. This may be someone living in the north American colonies before the recognition of American independence in 1783, or a more recent migrant.

My Arms - Am I entitled to a coat of Arms?

[AdmirerUS]

Originally Posted by Osipi

Would Meghan's family then be able to use that coat of arms? I kind of figured Meghan would have one but didn't think it would then be able to be used by her family.

Getting ready to check off my "learn something new everyday" box.

Well, there is "being able to use" and then there is "having a right to use." It's not as if there are US police for this who knock on your door if you have a needlepoint a pillow with an unofficial Coat of Arms on it. I doubt if the local mass market printing store bothers to check for rights when they do a print job with a coat of arms on it.

And here in the US, the vast majority of people have no idea that there is a process to get a Coat of Arms. We are the land of Lord Disick, for heavens sake!

[wyevale]

Small anecdote on the pitfalls and misunderstandings about Titles/Heraldry amongst 'non-natives' -

When I worked for the Private Bank Division of Citibank London, I had an American client who purchased a House which came with 'Manorial Rights' attached. He INSISTED on being called [in correspondence, and in person] Lord X.
I pointed out that he was NOT a Peer of the Realm, and being 'Lord of the Manor of X', carried NO rights to be Titled, or addressed as if he were...
He'd write to me as 'Lord X', and i'd respond to 'Mr X'... It drove him NUTS, but was 'the correct form' of address...

[AdmirerUS]

Originally Posted by wyevale

Small anecdote on the pitfalls and misunderstandings about Titles/Heraldry amongst 'non-natives' -

When I worked for the Private Bank Division of Citibank London, I had an American client who purchased a House which came with 'Manorial Rights' attached. He INSISTED on being called [in correspondence, and in person] Lord X.
I pointed out that he was NOT a Peer of the Realm, and being 'Lord of the Manor of X', carried NO rights to be Titled, or addressed as if he were...
He'd write to me as 'Lord X', and i'd respond to 'Mr X' It drove him NUTS, but was 'the correct form' of address...

Thanks - this made my morning and good for you!

[Curryong]

Yes, I believe David Matthews, Pippa's father in law, has a worthless lairdship attached to his Highland estate, which he never uses.

However, if Meghan becomes a member of the BRF she would have to have her own coat of arms. They all have them. So either Garter Herald is going to have to write to Mr Markle in Mexico suggesting he apply as of day of engagement, or else, in the name of gender equality they might grant Meghan her own without her father's involvement. Don't know how that would be done though!

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by Curryong

Yes, I believe David Matthews, Pippa's father in law, has a worthless lairdship attached to his Highland estate, which he never uses.

However, if Meghan becomes a member of the BRF she would have to have her own coat of arms. They all have them. So either Garter Herald is going to have to write to Mr Markle in Mexico suggesting he apply as of day of engagement, or else, in the name of gender equality they might grant Meghan her own without her father's involvement. Don't know how that would be done though!

The more I read, the more I'm leaning towards Meghan being granted her own coat of arms in her own right. According to the link I posted:

"While arms and crest are personal to their bearers the badge may be used by others wishing to show connection or allegiance to the individual or corporation to whom it belongs. Thus it is appropriate for the employees of a company to wear a tie bearing the company's badge, but not the company's arms. The grandchildren in the female line of a man entitled to arms may not use his arms or crest but can quite properly wear his badge, and often do so in the form of a brooch."

I don't know much about Mr. Markle's heritage but in order for him to apply and be granted a British coat of arms, I think he needs to be able to prove descent from a subject of the British Crown as stated in the post I made earlier.

I think most likely it will be just Meghan personally that will be granted a coat of arms. Will be interesting to see what it looks like.

I also found Sarah Ferguson's family coat of arms that she used prior to her marriage to Andrew.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...h_Ferguson.svg

It looks to be that it was modified at the time of her marriage to Andrew and this is the coat of arms that is shown for Sarah on her own thread here.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...4-a-36224.html

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Curryong

As a member of the BRF Meghan will have to have a coat of arms, which is quartered with her husband's . Everyone does. Queen Letizia of Spain and Crown Princess Mary of Denmark were foreigners who had coats of arms granted to them. Sophie Wessex has a cost of arms I believe and Sarah of York certainly did.

She might have American or Californian symbols on it, or the classic drama mask, something like that.

However, the question was whether her father would be given a Coat of Arms (to be used for 'her personal contribution' to her formal coat of arms) and that seems highly unlikely. For sure, they will create something for her if there is nothing readily available (as is the case for Meghan).

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Somebody

However, the question was whether her father would be given a Coat of Arms (to be used for 'her personal contribution' to her formal coat of arms) and that seems highly unlikely. For sure, they will create something for her if there is nothing readily available (as is the case for Meghan).

Yea, I don't see Meghan's father requesting a coat of arms unless he has to have one for her to get one.

[Jacknch]

Originally Posted by Osipi

Found it.

Grants of honorary arms to American citizens

American citizens may be granted honorary arms. They must meet the same criteria for eligibility as subjects of the Crown, and in addition must record in the official registers of the College of Arms a pedigree showing their descent from a subject of the British Crown. This may be someone living in the north American colonies before the recognition of American independence in 1783, or a more recent migrant.

My Arms - Am I entitled to a coat of Arms?

So if I am reading the link correctly, Meghan's father would have to show decendency from someone who was British?

In this link - Granting of Arms - College of Arms - it states that Arms are granted under Crown authority, which could mean whatever his dependancy is, if the Crown (i.e. the Queen) authorises it then it can be granted in any event.

I guess all this does indeed depend on whether Arms need to be granted first to Meghan's father in order for it to be used as a base for the Arms Meghan would have.

[jacqui24]

Originally Posted by Jacknch

So if I am reading the link correctly, Meghan's father would have to show decendency from someone who was British?

A tabloid did an article recently that traced their roots back to someone that used to work at Windsor castle as a maid. Apparently, the Markles have second cousins living in Britain today.

[Pranter]

If she were to create a coat of arms for herself I hope she puts something on there that is uniquely American too.


LaRae

[loonytick]

Originally Posted by Curryong

As a member of the BRF Meghan will have to have a coat of arms, which is quartered with her husband's . Everyone does. Queen Letizia of Spain and Crown Princess Mary of Denmark were foreigners who had coats of arms granted to them. Sophie Wessex has a cost of arms I believe and Sarah of York certainly did.

She might have American or Californian symbols on it, or the classic drama mask, something like that.

Wait-Letizia didn't come into her marriage as a foreigner, she was born and raised in Asturias; her parents were Spaniards; all of her grandparents but one spent their whole lives in Asturias or Madrid, and the one who didn't was born in the Philipines...to Spanish parents.

Her family didn't have a coat of arms because they were working/middle class, not because she wasn't Spanish.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by loonytick

Wait-Letizia didn't come into her marriage as a foreigner, she was born and raised in Asturias; her parents were Spaniards; all of her grandparents but one spent their whole lives in Asturias or Madrid, and the one who didn't was born in the Philipines...to Spanish parents.

Her family didn't have a coat of arms because they were working/middle class, not because she wasn't Spanish.

I guess that Curryong was thinking about Queen Máxima and she indeed has her own coat of arms, with the inescutcheon representing her family background (if I remember correctly this was created for Máxima but also used by/awarded to her father; see this previous post).

Another foreign queen was Queen Silvia of Sweden; looks like also in her case it is the inescutcheon that represents her background.

[Curryong]

Yes, Somebody, I was thinking of Queen Maxima and stupidly wrote Letizia, one of the penalties of posting things in the very early morning I guess!

However, to get back to British royalty. The Duchess of Gloucester is of course Danish, and on both sides of the family I would guess. Her father was a lawyer and I don't think he had his own coat of arms previous to her marriage. Birgette had rather a complex family history as I recall and used her mother's maiden name of Van Deurs before she married.

However, even if her maternal grandfather had a coat of arms, I doubt that she would have been able to use that, and in fact I have read today, from Wikii admittedly, that the Duchess has her coat of arms from her father quartered, as is usual, with her husband's.

Where did Mr Henrikson, Birgette's father, get his Arms from, I wonder. From the Danish College of Arms or was it granted by the College of Arms in London? In the case of the latter, did he have to prove descent from a subject of the Crown (of GB) and what would have happened if he couldn't? I guess the Coat of Arms was granted anyway.

[An Ard Ri]

The Royal Monogram of Queen Letizia of Spain.



The Royal Monogram of Queen Sofía of Spain.