Royal Cyphers, Coronets, Arms and Monograms

[SydneyUni]

Hello, would someone please help me to decipher the letters on this monogram? I can see X M and possibly smaller J and C under a coronet.
It is unlikely of royal provenance.

The piece is a work of a Dutch silversmith, dated 1734, probably commissioned by a Jewish (Sephardi) family.

I would also appreciate any literature reference concerning deciphering 18th century monograms.

Thank you.
SydneyUni, Australia

[Duc_et_Pair]

That will be very difficult because -despite the immense looting during WWII- there is still a lot of silverwork left from earlier centuries. Look at this picture (http://www.portugesesynagoge.nl/beel.../_DSC8511a.jpg), showing the museal display of the Silver Chamber belonging to the breathtaking beautiful 17th C Portuguese-Israelite Synagogue in Amsterdam (which is completely in original 17th C state, even without electric light, see picture.)

There were (are) also very rich Jewish merchant families and even families belonging to the nobility like Lopes Suasso, Teixeira de Mattos, Von Günzburg, Van Rosenthal or belonging to the Patriciate like Asser, De Miranda, etc. All of them had their family silver. I think you need to contact the Jewish Historic Museum in Amsterdam: Joods Historisch Museum - Joods Cultureel Kwartier | Home

[SydneyUni]

Thank you, Duc-et-Pair, for the suggested names and links. I will follow up.

I agree with you about the Portuguese Synagogue silver and textile collection - and the candlelight music concerts - I visited a few months ago - unforgettable indeed.

I would still like to be able to learn how to properly decipher the letters on (any) 18th c monogram. Is there any website or source that provides that kind of advice?

Best regards,
SydneyUni

[Duc_et_Pair]

The bicycles sponsored by Curtea Veche, the foundation Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth-Mills works for have his monogram. The frame says: "Under high patronage of His Royal Highness Prince Nicolae of Romania" (picture).

[2fat2slow]

Hello & good day everyone,

i think i browsed all internet regarding this royal monogram which i want to identify..

Any ideas dear members?

P.S. I do apologize for posted pictures that way..for some reason i was unable to post it properly.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5S...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1t...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1t...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1t...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1t...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1t...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1t...ew?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1t...ew?usp=sharing

[Suzzanah]

This sounds like a book wanting to be written. All the royal initials, monagrams, nic names and how they were designed. Think time life movies or a Royal documentary. Now,who might be willing to write it?

[Noble Consort Ming]

French language wiki pages for Jacques and Gabriella show their monograms now. The ones I posted before were grainy and cropped from their baptismal cakes.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Monaco

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriella_de_Monaco

[aaochsner]

Hello!

I have recently gained possession of a champagne bucket (looks like maybe mid 20th century) with an interesting coat of arms printed on it.

The bucket says "Made in England" on the bottom, but I would really like to know the significance of the coat of arms (or even the bucket itself if anyone knows).

I thought that consulting this forum would be a good place to start.

Does anyone know anything specific about this particular coat of arms? (see attached photos)

Apologies if I did not place this thread in the correct forum, I couldn't tell where it might fit best.

Thanks in advance for any help!

[Von Schlesian]

Hello Aaochsner;

Thank you for posting the pictures. If we begin by identifying the basic elements of the arms, that will give some indication.

The supporters are the Lion and Unicorn (as appear in the Great Arms of the United Kingdom), the helm is without a coronet to identify rank and the lion crest above is an uncrowned version of that which also appears on the UK Great Arms.
The shield consists of a saltire cross and four keeps, encircled by a faux Garter.

My humble conclusion is that this is a coat of arms of a corporate, or theatrical nature, with no significance in heraldic terms. It is an approximation of a coat of arms, but is just a pleasant illustration on a fine looking item.

I may be wrong, but I hope you are not disappointed by my modest observation.

[aaochsner]

Von Schlesian,

Thank you for your speedy response!

I spent some time searching through Google Images for British Royal Coat of Arms variations, and found nothing like this, so your conclusions and observations make sense.

Thanks again for entertaining my curiosity! :)

[Jacknch]

I'm afraid I will only add the the mystery, because the saltire cross and four castles are reminiscent of the coat of arms for Plymouth, in Devon:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymou...f_Plymouth.png

Further, I have found links showing similar antique objects (there are quite a few if you google antique fire bucket and check out the images) with the same coat of arms made by George G. Bussey and Co:

blue cardinal: July 2013 - scroll down the page a little.

A Pair of Oak Fire Buckets - Bushwood Antiques

So it may be a fire-bucket rather than a champagne bucket and perhaps the coat of arms relates to a local fire service or, as Von Schlesian suggests, a corporation.

[Von Schlesian]

Excellent hunting Jack - I shall revise my theory and nail my colours firmly to the mast of - the arms used by a theatre. (Old theatres being constructed primarily of wood, lit by candle and gaslight) posted a considerable fire risk and hence many fire buckets could be found around the building, back stage and front of house.

[aaochsner]

Thank you both for your excellent input!

I think you are right about it being a fire bucket, especially comparing it to the similar ones you've found, Jack.

Although the exterior is leather (I see that these other ones are too), and the interior SEEMS like some sort of (very thin) papery faux-leather, although I really have no idea what I'm talking about. Could such material really handle water? Was there a metal bucket insert or something? This one certainly has no evidence of water, but everything you're saying definitely fits.

I'm off to do some more digging...Thanks again, both of you :)

(edited: I originally thought you meant they were used to BURN things in them for light or something, but see that they were used for water. Still wondering if the internal material was actual suitable for water, though. Back to digging, super interesting; some of these appear to be quite valuable)

[Curryong]

Leather fire buckets were waterproofed inside with products like brewer's pitch or Stockholm tar. However, not all fire buckets held water. Some contained sand, which was used to smother fires.

[aaochsner]

By the way, I do realize that this topic is becoming somewhat beyond the scope of this forum, so I do not want to impose on the type of content/discussion on which The Royal Forums is centered.

If anyone has anything to add, however I of course welcome it :)

Cheers

[aaochsner]

Originally Posted by Curryong

Leather fire buckets were waterproofed inside with products like brewer's pitch or Stockholm tar. However, not all fire buckets held water. Some contained sand, which was used to smother fires.

Thanks Curryong. I really do not know enough to comment on the composition of the interior material. All I can say is that it appears to have been cut from a sheet and wrapped around the interior. It is almost paper-thin (thick paper), and has a leathery texture and pattern. Considering that, sand would make sense.

Thanks for your input

[Von Schlesian]

Originally Posted by aaochsner

By the way, I do realize that this topic is becoming somewhat beyond the scope of this forum, so I do not want to impose on the type of content/discussion on which The Royal Forums is centered.

If anyone has anything to add, however I of course welcome it :)

Cheers

Not at all, it is just as important to act as a process of elimination (I hope the Moderators agree).
I concur with Currayong, that rather than water, they would have contained sand. With regard to the lining - it may be that the bucket was adapted for some other purpose following the original, which may be the reason for the papery leatherette you describe.

[CyrilVladisla]

As the Duchess of York, Sarah Ferguson knew she was entitled to a crest. She designed one with a bumblebee and thistle.
Has any other Princess designed a crest?

[Countessmeout]

Sarah didn't design it. Sarah's family had a crest. Her married is Andrew on the left and father's on right. It is a version of Clan Ferguson's which is one thistle and a bee.

Clan Ferguson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_F..._Fergusson.svg

Fergie/Ronald
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah,...h_Ferguson.svg

The change is the shape and ribbon after divorce. Her sisters used the original.

Kate on the other hand her family didn't. Instead of Kate applying, her dad did so all his kids could use it. It is said all 5 had a hand in designing it. Like Sarah, Kate now combines her husband and family crests.

[HRHPrinceD.J.H.W.G]

Originally Posted by sara1981

I love that monograms of Her Majesty the Queen 2 like as EII2 its SO neat! when i visit to England last year mostly police use that on coat and shirt beside of EII2 and cap also!

Sara Boyce

The cypher is EIIR
It is also on Royal Mail vans, on our post boxes, and on military uniforms. And on all our banknotes too!

Our coins include the letters: Elizabeth II D.G. REG. F.D. which means Elizabeth II Dei Gratia Regina, Fidei Defensor. (Elizabeth II By the Grace of God, Queen and Defender of the Faith.)