Nobility and Titles

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Though Eduard von (Sachsen-)Anhalt might be tempted to agree with the Sachsen-Gesaphe situation, because in his case, the inheritance and the Headship of his House will go either to his daughter Katharina or the House becomes extinct.


As for the Sachsens: I am not sure how to feel about that. If they had accepted Timo's marriage, they could have had an able Head of the House, even though his mother was just a butcher's daughter. But then Alexander von Gesaphe was the closer relative as nephew of the late Margrave of Meissen.

Eduard of Anhalt has declared that the house will continue through his daughter and grandson but they're members of the House of Ascania not of the House of Wettin. Hmm, doesn't he carry the title of Duke of Saxony though?

Yes, it's a pity about Timo who seems very passionate about his heritage. He did get some property back didn't he?

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by JR76

Eduard of Anhalt has declared that the house will continue through his daughter and grandson but they're members of the House of Ascania not of the House of Wettin. Hmm, doesn't he carry the title of Duke of Saxony though?

Yes, it's a pity about Timo who seems very passionate about his heritage. He did get some property back didn't he?

Timo is dead, it's his son Ruediger who has been given back a bit of land and rented other properites near Moritzburg, where he works as a farmer and nature conserver.
The only thing standing between Rüdiger's line is the fact that neither his father nor he were married equal. Though seeing as no one is doing that anymore and these marriages are declared dynastic nowadays eg by the Habsburg-Lorraine or the Wittelbachs, the Welfs or the reigning Royal families of other countries, it shouldn't count as much as the law of the Wettins which does not allow adoptions at all. Because the descendants of unequal marriages at least are blood members of the family in the salic line, while Alexander von Sachsen-Gessaphe is only a blood member through his mother.


The Heads of the three remaining lines of the House of Wettin declared AvS-G's adoption as void and that he is no member of the former Royal House for them (apart from being his mother's son, so a family member).
Wiki says there is still the final judgment out there...

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by JR76

Eduard of Anhalt has declared that the house will continue through his daughter and grandson but they're members of the House of Ascania not of the House of Wettin. Hmm, doesn't he carry the title of Duke of Saxony though?

Thank you for reminding me of that - somehow because of the political naming of the Federal Stae of today I put the Prince of Anhalt in the wrong box. I'm sorry. But you are right, at one point in their history the Anhalts held the title of a sub-dukedom of Saxony.

I found it interesting that while Eduard of Anhalt is the last of the Askanians in the purely male line, he is recognized as the first Head of a House to introduce the female inheritance successfully. Not sure though if he chose semi-salic or equal inheritance. But it seems Katharina and her son will find no problems to claim the family's titles once her father dies. Not sure though if that counts for the officially democratic Federal Republic, though (meaning: name in passport).

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

Thank you for reminding me of that - somehow because of the political naming of the Federal Stae of today I put the Prince of Anhalt in the wrong box. I'm sorry. But you are right, at one point in their history the Anhalts held the title of a sub-dukedom of Saxony.

I found it interesting that while Eduard of Anhalt is the last of the Askanians in the purely male line, he is recognized as the first Head of a House to introduce the female inheritance successfully. Not sure though if he chose semi-salic or equal inheritance. But it seems Katharina and her son will find no problems to claim the family's titles once her father dies. Not sure though if that counts for the officially democratic Federal Republic, though (meaning: name in passport).

Yes, it is their official name for the federal republic. Germany permits family names, as which titles are legally acknowledged, to be inherited maternally.

https://www.familienrecht.net/familiennamen/

Eduard chose equal inheritance, and the children of his firstborn daughter have always borne their mother's title (name). He indeed claims the title Duke of Saxony.

Aktualisierung des Hausgesetzes der Familie Anhalt-Askanien | Anhalt-Askanien

Aktualisierung des Hausgesetzes der Familie Anhalt-Askanien

In January 2010 HH Prince Eduard Duke of Anhalt, Duke of Saxony, Head of the Ducal House and Master of the Order Albrecht the Bear, added and modernized the “Hausgesetz der Familie Anhalt-Askanien für das 21. Jahrhundert” (Family Laws of the Ducal House of Anhalt-Ascania for the 21rst Century).

[…]

- The Salic or Semi-Salic laws are no longer valid and no longer executed by the Ducal House of Ascania.

[…]

- With her succession – either at the date of the death of her father, his written abdication or a mental health problem – Princess Julia Katharina will become Duchess of Anhalt, Head of the Ducal House of Ascania and Master of the Order Albrecht der Bär.

- Successor to Princess Julia Katharina, future Duchess of Anhalt will be, at present, her eldest child Prince Julius MAXIME Lazllo b at Munich 21 Dec 2010 as future Duke of Anhalt and his lineage of children according to earlier birth, not to gender.

[…]

- Accepted family members and successors as Head of the Ducal House of Anhalt-Ascania can only be male and female decendants in the direct lineage from the late Duke Joachim Ernst of Anhalt, Duke of Saxony, Count of Ascania etc. (1901 – 47).

[…]

Given in Berlin January 1st 2010
Julius Eduard Duke of Anhalt

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Eduard chose equal inheritance, and the children of his firstborn daughter have always borne their mother's title (name). He indeed claims the title Duke of Saxony.

Thank you!

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

I found it interesting that while Eduard of Anhalt is the last of the Askanians in the purely male line, he is recognized as the first Head of a House to introduce the female inheritance successfully. Not sure though if he chose semi-salic or equal inheritance. But it seems Katharina and her son will find no problems to claim the family's titles once her father dies. Not sure though if that counts for the officially democratic Federal Republic, though (meaning: name in passport).

It was of course easier for Eduard to change the House Laws as he was the only dynast so no need to consider the opinion of others like in Saxony. I think there also a reason who played in was that Timo and Rüdiger etc. had no contact to the main line and where consedered as black sheep by them not only because of their marriages but also of other reasons.

What i wonder at first Prince Johannes Heinrich of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha anotehr nephew of the late Margrave of Meißen was choosen as Heir but he died at an climbing accident in 1987. I wonder if hew ould have been accepted by the other Family membes. After all he was also a Wettine in the male line albeit not from the albertine line.

[ImKevin]

Good day everyone. I was just curious to know if there has been any individual or a group of people who've had, for starters, been of nobility and somehow was able to climb up the latter into Royalty? I'm really interested for personal project mine and well, for future reference.

I really appreciate your time and Apologizes if this is the wrong place!

[Al_bina]

The first nobility that comes to mind is Polish magnates.

Some magnates were also elected as kings of the Commonwealth; namely Michał Korybut Wiśniowiecki and Stanisław August Poniatowski (a relative of the Czartoryski family)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnat..._and_Lithuania

The Romanovs, the boyars of the Grand Duchy of Moscow, were elected by the Zemskoy Sobor to rule Russia.

[Countessmeout]

In reality royals started out as nobles/land lords and eventually elevated to the title of kings/royals. In France, in the days of the 'king of Franks' the dynasties started with election of a noble house. The Robertians for instance were the Counts of worm before they took the throne. Charles Martel's family were 'mayors of the palace', power behind the throne, who eventually took power. But if we are talking already established kingdoms:

-William the conqueror-William wasn't royalty, he was the Duke of Normandy. He was a bastard son of Robert the Magnificent, Duke of Normandy. He came to the throne due to his relationship with Queen Emma. Emma was the sister of William's grandfather Richard II (both children of Richard the fearless). Emma was wife of 2 kings of England, mother of 2 and stepmother of 2. When her son Edward was childless, he named the son of his maternal cousin, heir. The Dukes of Normandy were powerful rulers, but nobility, not kings.

-his opponent was also a noble not royal born king. Harold was an Earl of Wessex (not same as kingdom of Wessex). His grandfather was a thegn (an old noble title). His father was raised to Earl. Harold was chosen due to the fact his sister Edith was the widow of King Edward.

[Troy Thompson]

Yeah, all of the presently regnant royal houses of Europe, and the vast majority—if not all—of the European houses that continue to hold royal titles in pretense, were formed from noble houses.

Though, it should be noted that it's an entirely different matter outside of Europe. The Arab countries in particular never really developed such a concept as titled nobility, so, except where their ancestors might have held Ottoman noble titles, it's not likely that you're going to find many Arabic royals who are descended from nobles. Additionally, in North America, the House of Iturbide (if I'm not mistaken) did not become a noble house until after it was an imperial house, and the Haitian imperial and royal houses never held any noble titles.

[chinmoypborah]

If you're literally only looking for names, a quick starting point:

House of Bourbon

The Habsburgs

The House of Hannover

The first two are especially crucial to the 16th thru late 18th century history of Europe as a whole, not even just Western Europe. The third was rather important to British history, giving it the various King Georges.

[Denville]

There were the Bonapartes who were minor coriscan nobility I suppose and one of them made it to being Emperor...

[Tatiana Maria]

As Troy Thompson and Countessmeout pointed out above, the vast majority of European royal houses originated from what we would deem "nobility". One exception is the reigning royal house of Sweden, the House of Bernadotte, the first sovereign of which was born as a commoner.

Originally Posted by Troy Thompson

Though, it should be noted that it's an entirely different matter outside of Europe. The Arab countries in particular never really developed such a concept as titled nobility, so, except where their ancestors might have held Ottoman noble titles, it's not likely that you're going to find many Arabic royals who are descended from nobles. Additionally, in North America, the House of Iturbide (if I'm not mistaken) did not become a noble house until after it was an imperial house, and the Haitian imperial and royal houses never held any noble titles.

Thank you for the reminder that European concepts are not always applicable to countries and systems elsewhere.

[theroyalfly]

Originally Posted by Troy Thompson

Yeah, all of the presently regnant royal houses of Europe, and the vast majority—if not all—of the European houses that continue to hold royal titles in pretense, were formed from noble houses.

Though, it should be noted that it's an entirely different matter outside of Europe. The Arab countries in particular never really developed such a concept as titled nobility, so, except where their ancestors might have held Ottoman noble titles, it's not likely that you're going to find many Arabic royals who are descended from nobles. Additionally, in North America, the House of Iturbide (if I'm not mistaken) did not become a noble house until after it was an imperial house, and the Haitian imperial and royal houses never held any noble titles.

1 Alaouite dynasty of Morocco descended from Al-Hassan Ad-Dakhil who was hoped to be a descendant of greatest Islamic Prophet Muhammad.
2 House of Saud of Saudi Arabia descended from Saud ibn Muhammad ibn Muqrin that traces its origin to the Arabian tribe of 'Amir ibn Saasaa--- a tribe that swore allegiance to Prophet Muhammad and his immediate successors.
3 The Hashemites of Jordan claim to trace their ancestry from Hashim ibn 'Abd Manaf the great-grandfather of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad.

And of course,

4 The deposed Bagrationi Dynasty of Georgia that claimes their descent from the Biblical King and Prophet David.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

As Troy Thompson and Countessmeout pointed out above, the vast majority of European royal houses originated from what we would deem "nobility". One exception is the reigning royal house of Sweden, the House of Bernadotte, the first sovereign of which was born as a commoner. Thank you for the reminder that European concepts are not always applicable to countries and systems elsewhere.

Yes this is so true. They descend from a Frenchman Jean Bernadotte, a commoner who had risen to be a general during the French Revolution; married Désirée Clary also a commoner who had a sister Julie who is married to Joseph Bonaparte (older brother of Napoleon Bonaparte) briefly King of Spain, Naples and Sicily. He was also made 'Prince of Pontecorvo' by Napoleon.

PS: The Bonaparte's are of Genoese noble descent.

Jean was created Crown Prince of Sweden by the elderly King Charles XIII of Sweden who didn't have heirs. Thus ending reign of the House of Holstein-Gottorp (Swedish line) and making it extinct.

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Queen of the Belgians born gravin/comtesse Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz
The Hereditary Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg born gravin/comtesse Stéphanie de Lannoy
Queen Paola, Princess of Belgium born Donna Paola dei principi Ruffo di Calabria
Lady Nicholas Windsor born Donna Paola Doimi de Lupis de Frankopan
Princess Amedeo of Belgium born Donna Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein
The Countess of Snowdon born Lady Serena Stanhope
The Duchess of Kent born Katharine (of the baronets) Worsley

These are non-royal but nevertheless noble partners in present reigning royal families which come to my mind.

[Tatiana Maria]

The current Queen of the Belgians was born Jonkvrouw Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz and raised to the rank of Countess on the day of her marriage.

In the communications to the media in relation to the engagement (a summary: Wie is Elisabetta, de verloofde van prins Amedeo? | Royalty | Showbizz | HLN), Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein and her father were called Nobile instead of Donna (I believe the latter was limited to certain ranking families within the Italian nobility). But it is only a title of pretense, as the 1948 Constitution of Italy abolished the country's nobility.

[theroyalfly]

20th Century Queen Consorts

Queen Geraldine of Albania born Countess Géraldine Margit Virginia Olga Mária Apponyi de Nagy-Appony

Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother born Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon

Queen Fabiola of the Belgians born Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón

Tsaritsa Margarita of Bulgaria born Doña Margarita Gómez-Acebo y Cejuela

[Troy Thompson]

Originally Posted by theroyalfly

1 Alaouite dynasty of Morocco descended from Al-Hassan Ad-Dakhil who was hoped to be a descendant of greatest Islamic Prophet Muhammad.
2 House of Saud of Saudi Arabia descended from Saud ibn Muhammad ibn Muqrin that traces its origin to the Arabian tribe of 'Amir ibn Saasaa--- a tribe that swore allegiance to Prophet Muhammad and his immediate successors.
3 The Hashemites of Jordan claim to trace their ancestry from Hashim ibn 'Abd Manaf the great-grandfather of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad.

This really does not contradict my statement that the Arab countries did not develop an indigenous system of titled nobility, and consequently there are not likely to be many Arab royals who are descended from nobility. Descendance from the Prophet Muhammad is not the same thing as the concept of nobility, nor is descendance from a particular tribe.

The closest thing to a concept of nobility that the Arab world developed indigenously is the concept of a sheikh, but a sheikh really is not a noble. Sheikhs are either members of the royal house, or tribal chieftains, or influential Islamic scholars.

[Denville]

I don't think that non royal but aristocratic wives of monarchs or princes is what the OP is askig about. Of course there are many European princes in the last century who have married wives who were of noble but not royal birth... but I think he's asking about noble families who "roes to royalty"...

[theroyalfly]

Originally Posted by Denville

I don't think that non royal but aristocratic wives of monarchs or princes is what the OP is askig about. Of course there are many European princes in the last century who have married wives who were of noble but not royal birth... but I think he's asking about noble families who "roes to royalty"...

The House of Savoy and the House of Romanov are two great examples.