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  #61  
Old 03-23-2020, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Friedrich Karl II View Post
[...]

Napoleon I

His empire fell already before his death but still he is one of greatest monarchs in history. He managed stabilise France after years lasted chaotic First French Republic. He developed French legistature and was pretty succesful military commander. He wasn't flawless but he put his mark to history.
Now that is an understatement for someone who pillaged, plundered, ravaged Europe, the Middle East and Russia, whose military campaigns left hundred thousands dead, wounded and missing, caused famines, diseases, misery and deep impoverishment over the whole Continent.
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  #62  
Old 03-24-2020, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Now that is an understatement for someone who pillaged, plundered, ravaged Europe, the Middle East and Russia, whose military campaigns left hundred thousands dead, wounded and missing, caused famines, diseases, misery and deep impoverishment over the whole Continent.

His conquest wars clearly caused much of suffering but other great powers/rising powers weren't much better. UK was conquering India and establishing its oppressive empire, Spain was oppressing its own colonies and practised inhumane slave trade over Atlantic, Russia was conquering Caucasus and Central Asia and it had still serfdom and tsars treatened Jews much worsely than Napoleon and USA was expanding (read stealing lands from natives). Napoleon was pretty militaristic but not other powers were much lesser militaristic. And Napoleon too stabilised France and made much for legistature system and fixed many problems caused by radical revolutionariers.


And for me intention of this tread is not judge rulers by modern standards. If we would do that way, many of mentioned in this thread wouldn't be acceptable.
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  #63  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Friedrich Karl II View Post
His conquest wars clearly caused much of suffering but other great powers/rising powers weren't much better. UK was conquering India and establishing its oppressive empire, Spain was oppressing its own colonies and practised inhumane slave trade over Atlantic, Russia was conquering Caucasus and Central Asia and it had still serfdom and tsars treatened Jews much worsely than Napoleon and USA was expanding (read stealing lands from natives). Napoleon was pretty militaristic but not other powers were much lesser militaristic. And Napoleon too stabilised France and made much for legistature system and fixed many problems caused by radical revolutionariers.


And for me intention of this tread is not judge rulers by modern standards. If we would do that way, many of mentioned in this thread wouldn't be acceptable.



Why not judge them by modern standards? Why not judge them with regard to ethic and moral?


Why continue to let the murdereous, greeedy take a hallow of greatness?


If you judge them by the old rules; Hitler could also be called great ... he surely did a lot worth to remember..
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  #64  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:08 AM
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By the standards of the day Napoleon was more controversial than he is now. Many considered him the antichrist.
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  #65  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Come on. She was the worst. She can not even stand in the shadow of William III or Frederik Hendrik if we have to name any Orange. Fleeing to London is not exactly the heroïcism which hangs around great monarchs. Her Court was the dullest of Europe. She inspired nothing. Not in legislation like Willem I, not in gallantry or grandesse like Willem II, not in promoting arts, sciences and entrepreneurship like Willem III. Was it not for the War, Wilhelmina's Reign was one long yawn of a control-freaked Spinster-Queen.
Oh dear,one big yawn indeed..
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  #66  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Nice Nofret View Post
Why not judge them by modern standards? Why not judge them with regard to ethic and moral?


Why continue to let the murdereous, greeedy take a hallow of greatness?


If you judge them by the old rules; Hitler could also be called great ... he surely did a lot worth to remember..
We judge them by the standards of THEIR time. Where in 1930-40's would what Hitler did be considered good?? Great?? Memorable for good reasons. No where but in his own little corrupt following.

The fact is the morals and standards do play a huge role. Its like can we judge Eastern culture based on western morals? Not fairly no (unless they are torturing/murdering people and that goes the other direction in judging the western world). Cant judge a 16th century ruler on his view of womens rights when that wasn't something that existed for another four hundred years. No one would live up to it.

There were plenty of rulers who were seen as horrible tyrants and had lovely nicknames like The Cruel, which reflected that.
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  #67  
Old 03-24-2020, 04:43 AM
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Greatness,like beauty,is in the eye of the beholder only,I think.
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  #68  
Old 03-24-2020, 03:45 PM
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The greatest king should be the self declared King of the Jews, Jesus. All other reals have been crumbling or will in the future, but his realm was not of this world and will live on.
Handel wrote The Messiah.
One line states: Hallelujah, Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords.
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