Cases where a claim to a non-existent throne passed to distant cousins?

Futurist · #1 10-12-2021, 09:04 PM

Which cases have there been--or will there be--where a claim to a non-existent throne will passed onto distant cousins?

I can think of the Orleanists inheriting the Legitimist claim to the non-existent French throne after the 1883 death of Henri, Count of Chambord as well as the Savoy-Aosta branch inheriting the Legitimist/agnatic claim to the non-existent Italian throne after the male line of the House of Savoy will die out sometime this century (Emanuele Filiberto was born in 1972, and he has only daughters, so his line should die out in the 2070s or 2080s at the very latest, and more likely earlier than that--possibly in the 2050s and/or 2060s). (Yes, I know that the elder branch of the House of Savoy claimed to have recently changed the line of succession to the Italian throne to include females, but the fact of the matter remains that the Savoy-Aosta branch as well as various Italian monarchists have refused to recognize this change, arguing that such a change to the line of succession should await a monarchical restoration or something along those lines.)

Anyway, which additional examples of this have there been or, alternatively, will there likely be in the future based on our current knowledge?

**Somebody** · #2 10-12-2021, 09:11 PM

The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The Carlist claim was also passed on distantly when the current Duke of Parma's grandfather became the Carlist pretender.

Futurist · #3 10-12-2021, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody

The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The Carlist claim was also passed on distantly when the current Duke of Parma's grandfather became the Carlist pretender.

Are you talking about the former Two Sicilies throne? If so, it looks like Prince Gabriel's male line would have inherited the claim to this throne after Prince Carlo's death if he wouldn't have actually changed the succession laws (or if one accepts his claim to the throne but refuses to actually consider his changes to the succession laws to be binding):

https://zims-en.kiwix.campusafrica.g...e_Two_Sicilies

As for the Carlist claim, I see--Prince Xavier inherited this claim to the Spanish throne in 1936 from his distant cousin Infante Alfonso Carlos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince..._Bourbon-Parma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant...e_of_San_Jaime

I strongly suspect that they're both descended in the male line from French King Louis XIV's grandson, King Philip V of Spain, but I'll have to check to see if Philip V was their most recent common male-line ancestor.

Tatiana Maria · #4 10-12-2021, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futurist

As for the Carlist claim, I see--Prince Xavier inherited this claim to the Spanish throne in 1936 from his distant cousin Infante Alfonso Carlos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince..._Bourbon-Parma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant...e_of_San_Jaime

I strongly suspect that they're both descended in the male line from French King Louis XIV's grandson, King Philip V of Spain, but I'll have to check to see if Philip V was their most recent common male-line ancestor.

I've no idea why the second article refers to him as Infante Alfonso Carlos, because it is extremely inconsistent. Either one accepts the Carlist claim and he was born as an Infante but died as King Alfonso Carlos I, or one does not accept the Carlist claim and he was Mr. Alfonso Carlos of Bourbon from birth to death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futurist

Which cases have there been--or will there be--where a claim to a non-existent throne will passed onto distant cousins?

I can think of [...] the Savoy-Aosta branch inheriting the Legitimist/agnatic claim to the non-existent Italian throne after the male line of the House of Savoy will die out sometime this century (Emanuele Filiberto was born in 1972, and he has only daughters, so his line should die out in the 2070s or 2080s at the very latest, and more likely earlier than that--possibly in the 2050s and/or 2060s). (Yes, I know that the elder branch of the House of Savoy claimed to have recently changed the line of succession to the Italian throne to include females, but the fact of the matter remains that the Savoy-Aosta branch as well as various Italian monarchists have refused to recognize this change, arguing that such a change to the line of succession should await a monarchical restoration or something along those lines.)

For the Savoy-Aostas and the Italian monarchists who support their claim, the Savoy Aosta line has already inherited the claim from the elder branch. They argue that the current head of the elder branch married without the consent of his father (which he disputes) and was excluded from the succession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody

The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The claimant who has two daughters uses Duke of Castro. His elder daughter and heiress is the Duchess of Calabria for those who recognize his claim.

https://realcasadiborbone.it/en/

**Somebody** · #5 10-12-2021, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

The claimant who has two daughters uses Duke of Castro. His elder daughter and heiress is the Duchess of Calabria for those who recognize his claim.

https://realcasadiborbone.it/en/

Thanks! He indeed now uses the Duke of Castro title. Previously he was known as the Duke of Calabria. Got them mixed up. Thanks for the correction!

Friedrich Karl II · #6 10-13-2021, 01:17 AM

Depending what claimant lineage for Russian throne you are following you might end really far from last tsar of Russia.

Duc_et_Pair · #7 10-13-2021, 03:11 AM

When Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Stadtholder of the United Provinces and King of England, Scotland and Ireland died in 1702, his far-related cousin Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz became his claimant.

But there was a "Stadtholder-less Era" which lasted 35 years for Holland, Zealand, Utrecht, Guelders and shorter for other Provinces.

Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King William III of Great Britain) was a grandson of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Both grandmothers of Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Prince of Orange (coincidentally the closest shared ancestor to all current reigning European monarchies!) were granddaughters of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

So this fits the bill: a claim to a non existant throne passed to a distant cousin. The son of this distant cousin (Willem IV of Orange-Nassau) would become hereditary Stadtholder in all provinces (the second time that the Stadtholdership was declared hereditary) and with that effectively preluding on today's monarchy in the Netherlands as Willem-Alexander descends from this Johan Willem Friso.

Futurist · #8 10-13-2021, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

When Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Stadtholder of the United Provinces and King of England, Scotland and Ireland died in 1702, his far-related cousin Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz became his claimant.

But there was a "Stadtholder-less Era" which lasted 35 years for Holland, Zealand, Utrecht, Guelders and shorter for other Provinces.

Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King William III of Great Britain) was a grandson of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Both grandmothers of Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Prince of Orange (coincidentally the closest shared ancestor to all current reigning European monarchies!) were granddaughters of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

So this fits the bill: a claim to a non existant throne passed to a distant cousin. The son of this distant cousin (Willem IV of Orange-Nassau) would become hereditary Stadtholder in all provinces (the second time that the Stadtholdership was declared hereditary) and with that effectively preluding on today's monarchy in the Netherlands as Willem-Alexander descends from this Johan Willem Friso.

Interesting.

Futurist · #9 10-13-2021, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Friedrich Karl II

Depending what claimant lineage for Russian throne you are following you might end really far from last tsar of Russia.

AFAIK, the current male-line Romanov dynasty descendants have no claim to the Russian throne due to them being descendants of morganatic marriages. However, I do think that it was rather cynical for the Vladimirovichi branch to refuse to approve of morganatic marriages when it was their distant cousins who were doing it while being willing to approve of a morganatic marriage when one of their own (Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia) was extremely recently doing it.

Tatiana Maria · #10 10-28-2021, 07:44 PM

Most likely, Maria Vladimirovna has not approved her son's marriage as being a dynastic one. She has recognized her daughter-in-law only with the lower title of HSH Princess, in line with the treatment of non-dynastic wives by previous pretenders.

http://www.imperialhouse.ru/en/allne...bettarini.html

Futurist · #11 10-29-2021, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Most likely, Maria Vladimirovna has not approved her son's marriage as being a dynastic one. She has recognized her daughter-in-law only with the lower title of HSH Princess, in line with the treatment of non-dynastic wives by previous pretenders.

http://www.imperialhouse.ru/en/allne...bettarini.html

So, what happens to the succession?

Duc_et_Pair · #12 10-29-2021, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futurist

So, what happens to the succession?

Her son is still the Heir. When he is the Head of the House, he can declare his alliance to Rebecca Bettarini perfectly acceptable and create her an Imperial Highness and a Grand-Princess of Russia.

But in the situation that this couple has no heirs, the succession will continue in the princely House zu Leiningen.

The father of Maria Vladimirovna Romanova was Vladimir Kyrillovitch Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia (1917-1992).

When this line becomes without heirs, the closest line is that of his sister (Maria's aunt) Maria Kyrillovna Romanova, Fürstin zu Leiningen born Grand-Princess of Russia (1907-1951). The Zu Leiningens are her descendants.

**Somebody** · #13 10-29-2021, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Her son is still the Heir. When he is the Head of the House, he can declare his alliance to Rebecca Bettarini perfectly acceptable and create her an Imperial Highness and a Grand-Princess of Russia.

But in the situation that this couple has no heirs, the succession will continue in the princely House zu Leiningen.

The father of Maria Vladimirovna Romanova was Vladimir Kyrillovitch Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia (1917-1992).

When this line becomes without heirs, the closest line is that of his sister (Maria's aunt) Maria Kyrillovna Romanova, Fürstin zu Leiningen born Grand-Princess of Russia (1907-1951). The Zu Leiningens are her descendants.

I guess that's the advantage of becoming the Head of the House yourself.

Trying to get a better understanding of the line of succession (I checked the marriages but not whether they are Russian Orthodox as apparently that can be arranged if needed).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
Note: I assume his other 2 children don't meet the requirements because their mother is either untitled or a countess)
4. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
5. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 4 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
6. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 5 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia
7. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 4; however, in unequal marriage, so his children won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
8. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
[I]9. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
10. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 10; also in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 12)
14. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
15. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 14; in unequal marriage)
16. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 14; married to countess)

LINE OF KIRA
17. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
18. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (nephew to 17; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
19. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)
20. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)

Duc_et_Pair · #14 10-30-2021, 04:54 AM

The Zu Leiningens have a lot of alliances which are "equal" I must say.

Karl Emich zu Leiningen x Margarita von Hohenlohe

Andreas zu Leiningen x Alexandra von Hannover

Ferdinand zu Leiningen x Viktoria Luise von Preußen

But when Georg von Preußen / Georgy Mikhailovich Romanov and Rebecca Bettarini have a child, this whole whole Leningen-clan is on a distance again. We will see if the couple (not the youngest anymore) are able to build a family.

**Stefan** · #15 10-30-2021, 05:21 AM

Also in the House of Wittelsbach the claim to the bavarian Thrpone will pass to a altthough not so distant Cousin as Duke Franz and his brother Max Emanuel have no sons.
The heir is Prince Luitpold. They are double related as his mother, the late Princess Irmingard was a halfsister of their father, the late Duke Albrecht.

Through the paternal line he is their second cousin and through the maternal line he is their cousin.

And in the House of Württemberg after the death of the last King Wilhelm II. in 1921 (it just 100 years ago) the Headship of the royal House passed to his distant cousin Duke Albrecht from the so called catholic line, which are the descendants of Duke Alexander, the youngest brother of King Friedrich I., of Württemberg.

However the next Head of the Royal House, Duke Wilhelm will also be a descendant of King Wilhelm II., as his mother Duchess Marie, née Princess zu Wied is a great-great-granddaugher of King Wilhelm II. through his daugther Pauline, who married into the House of Wied.

JR76 · #16 10-30-2021, 06:09 AM

The claim to the throne of Portugal was inherited by the current duke Dom Duarte Pio's father after the death of King Manuel in 1932. Thereby he ended the struggle (sometimes an open war) for the throne that had been ongoing between the descendants of King Joao VI since 1828 and brought the united claim back into the House of Braganca.

Duc_et_Pair · #17 10-30-2021, 06:29 AM

In Romania, according to the last Constitution before the Communist dictatorship, the headship of the House should have passed from King Michael of Romania, Prinz von Hohenzollern to his cousin Karl Friedrich Fürst zu Hohenzollern.

As we know, on New Year's Eve 2007 King Michael issued the Normele Fundamentale ale Familiei Regale a României and created his daughters his Heirs.

Had he not done this, we would have seen the topic of this thread: the headship of a House going to a distant cousin. By the way: neither Karl Friedrich Fürst von Hohenzollern nor his son Alexander Erbprinz von Hohenzollern have shown interest in their Romanian "claim".

**Stefan** · #18 10-30-2021, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody

LINE OF KIRA
17. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
18. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (nephew to 17; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
19. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)
20. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)

What about Prince Georg Friedrich and his sons?

JR76 · #19 10-30-2021, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stefan

What about Prince Georg Friedrich and his sons?

That's what I was thinking as well. If the reason behind their exclusion is that they're heads of the House of Prussia one should remember that up until the death of Grand Duke Vladimir the claimant to the throne of Russia was also the Head of the House of Holstein-Gottorp proving that you can be the head of two houses at once.

Duc_et_Pair · #20 10-30-2021, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Somebody

I guess that's the advantage of becoming the Head of the House yourself.

Trying to get a better understanding of the line of succession (I checked the marriages but not whether they are Russian Orthodox as apparently that can be arranged if needed).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
Note: I assume his other 2 children don't meet the requirements because their mother is either untitled or a countess)
4. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
5. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 4 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
6. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 5 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia
7. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 4; however, in unequal marriage, so his children won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
8. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
[I]9. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
10. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 10; also in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 12)
14. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
15. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 14; in unequal marriage)
16. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 14; married to countess)

LINE OF KIRA
17. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
18. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (nephew to 17; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
19. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)
20. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)

I believe the Russian succession is primogeniture with the younger son having preference over an elder sister. That means Cecilie zu Leiningen comes after her younger brother Emich. But indeed: is Emich's mother, a Gräfin von und zu Egloffstein, an acceptable partner?

I can see why Maria is so adamant on equality. After all, when Rebecca is acceptable, she has no hold against the more senior line of Roman Petrovich which married blue bloods:

Tsar Nicholas I x Princess Charlotte of Prussia
|
Peter Nicholaevich Romanov x Princess Milica Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro
|
Roman Petrovich Romanov x Countess Praskiova Dmitrievna Sheremeteva
|
Nicholas Romanovich Romanov x Countess Sveva della Gherardesca
|
Their issue all married Italian non-blue-bloods. If the Italian non-blue-blooded Rebecca is acceptable, why then not the Italian non-blue-blooded spouses to the daughters of Nicholas Romanovich Romanov and Sveva della Gherardesca?