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Old 10-12-2021, 08:04 PM
Gentry
 
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Cases where a claim to a non-existent throne passed to distant cousins?

Which cases have there been--or will there be--where a claim to a non-existent throne will passed onto distant cousins?

I can think of the Orleanists inheriting the Legitimist claim to the non-existent French throne after the 1883 death of Henri, Count of Chambord as well as the Savoy-Aosta branch inheriting the Legitimist/agnatic claim to the non-existent Italian throne after the male line of the House of Savoy will die out sometime this century (Emanuele Filiberto was born in 1972, and he has only daughters, so his line should die out in the 2070s or 2080s at the very latest, and more likely earlier than that--possibly in the 2050s and/or 2060s). (Yes, I know that the elder branch of the House of Savoy claimed to have recently changed the line of succession to the Italian throne to include females, but the fact of the matter remains that the Savoy-Aosta branch as well as various Italian monarchists have refused to recognize this change, arguing that such a change to the line of succession should await a monarchical restoration or something along those lines.)

Anyway, which additional examples of this have there been or, alternatively, will there likely be in the future based on our current knowledge?
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Old 10-12-2021, 08:11 PM
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The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The Carlist claim was also passed on distantly when the current Duke of Parma's grandfather became the Carlist pretender.
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Old 10-12-2021, 08:35 PM
Gentry
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The Carlist claim was also passed on distantly when the current Duke of Parma's grandfather became the Carlist pretender.
Are you talking about the former Two Sicilies throne? If so, it looks like Prince Gabriel's male line would have inherited the claim to this throne after Prince Carlo's death if he wouldn't have actually changed the succession laws (or if one accepts his claim to the throne but refuses to actually consider his changes to the succession laws to be binding):

https://zims-en.kiwix.campusafrica.g...e_Two_Sicilies

As for the Carlist claim, I see--Prince Xavier inherited this claim to the Spanish throne in 1936 from his distant cousin Infante Alfonso Carlos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince..._Bourbon-Parma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant...e_of_San_Jaime

I strongly suspect that they're both descended in the male line from French King Louis XIV's grandson, King Philip V of Spain, but I'll have to check to see if Philip V was their most recent common male-line ancestor.
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Old 10-12-2021, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist View Post
As for the Carlist claim, I see--Prince Xavier inherited this claim to the Spanish throne in 1936 from his distant cousin Infante Alfonso Carlos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince..._Bourbon-Parma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant...e_of_San_Jaime

I strongly suspect that they're both descended in the male line from French King Louis XIV's grandson, King Philip V of Spain, but I'll have to check to see if Philip V was their most recent common male-line ancestor.
I've no idea why the second article refers to him as Infante Alfonso Carlos, because it is extremely inconsistent. Either one accepts the Carlist claim and he was born as an Infante but died as King Alfonso Carlos I, or one does not accept the Carlist claim and he was Mr. Alfonso Carlos of Bourbon from birth to death.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurist View Post
Which cases have there been--or will there be--where a claim to a non-existent throne will passed onto distant cousins?

I can think of [...] the Savoy-Aosta branch inheriting the Legitimist/agnatic claim to the non-existent Italian throne after the male line of the House of Savoy will die out sometime this century (Emanuele Filiberto was born in 1972, and he has only daughters, so his line should die out in the 2070s or 2080s at the very latest, and more likely earlier than that--possibly in the 2050s and/or 2060s). (Yes, I know that the elder branch of the House of Savoy claimed to have recently changed the line of succession to the Italian throne to include females, but the fact of the matter remains that the Savoy-Aosta branch as well as various Italian monarchists have refused to recognize this change, arguing that such a change to the line of succession should await a monarchical restoration or something along those lines.)
For the Savoy-Aostas and the Italian monarchists who support their claim, the Savoy Aosta line has already inherited the claim from the elder branch. They argue that the current head of the elder branch married without the consent of his father (which he disputes) and was excluded from the succession.




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The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.
The claimant who has two daughters uses Duke of Castro. His elder daughter and heiress is the Duchess of Calabria for those who recognize his claim.

https://realcasadiborbone.it/en/
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Old 10-12-2021, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The claimant who has two daughters uses Duke of Castro. His elder daughter and heiress is the Duchess of Calabria for those who recognize his claim.

https://realcasadiborbone.it/en/
Thanks! He indeed now uses the Duke of Castro title. Previously he was known as the Duke of Calabria. Got them mixed up. Thanks for the correction!
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Old 10-13-2021, 12:17 AM
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Depending what claimant lineage for Russian throne you are following you might end really far from last tsar of Russia.
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Old 10-13-2021, 02:11 AM
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When Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Stadtholder of the United Provinces and King of England, Scotland and Ireland died in 1702, his far-related cousin Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz became his claimant.

But there was a "Stadtholder-less Era" which lasted 35 years for Holland, Zealand, Utrecht, Guelders and shorter for other Provinces.

Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King William III of Great Britain) was a grandson of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Both grandmothers of Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Prince of Orange (coincidentally the closest shared ancestor to all current reigning European monarchies!) were granddaughters of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

So this fits the bill: a claim to a non existant throne passed to a distant cousin. The son of this distant cousin (Willem IV of Orange-Nassau) would become hereditary Stadtholder in all provinces (the second time that the Stadtholdership was declared hereditary) and with that effectively preluding on today's monarchy in the Netherlands as Willem-Alexander descends from this Johan Willem Friso.
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Old 10-13-2021, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Stadtholder of the United Provinces and King of England, Scotland and Ireland died in 1702, his far-related cousin Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz became his claimant.

But there was a "Stadtholder-less Era" which lasted 35 years for Holland, Zealand, Utrecht, Guelders and shorter for other Provinces.

Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King William III of Great Britain) was a grandson of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Both grandmothers of Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Prince of Orange (coincidentally the closest shared ancestor to all current reigning European monarchies!) were granddaughters of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

So this fits the bill: a claim to a non existant throne passed to a distant cousin. The son of this distant cousin (Willem IV of Orange-Nassau) would become hereditary Stadtholder in all provinces (the second time that the Stadtholdership was declared hereditary) and with that effectively preluding on today's monarchy in the Netherlands as Willem-Alexander descends from this Johan Willem Friso.
Interesting.
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  #9  
Old 10-13-2021, 03:25 PM
Gentry
 
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Originally Posted by Friedrich Karl II View Post
Depending what claimant lineage for Russian throne you are following you might end really far from last tsar of Russia.
AFAIK, the current male-line Romanov dynasty descendants have no claim to the Russian throne due to them being descendants of morganatic marriages. However, I do think that it was rather cynical for the Vladimirovichi branch to refuse to approve of morganatic marriages when it was their distant cousins who were doing it while being willing to approve of a morganatic marriage when one of their own (Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia) was extremely recently doing it.
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