Cases where a claim to a non-existent throne passed to distant cousins?


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Futurist

Gentry
Joined
Jul 6, 2019
Messages
100
City
Los Angeles area
Country
United States
Which cases have there been--or will there be--where a claim to a non-existent throne will passed onto distant cousins?

I can think of the Orleanists inheriting the Legitimist claim to the non-existent French throne after the 1883 death of Henri, Count of Chambord as well as the Savoy-Aosta branch inheriting the Legitimist/agnatic claim to the non-existent Italian throne after the male line of the House of Savoy will die out sometime this century (Emanuele Filiberto was born in 1972, and he has only daughters, so his line should die out in the 2070s or 2080s at the very latest, and more likely earlier than that--possibly in the 2050s and/or 2060s). (Yes, I know that the elder branch of the House of Savoy claimed to have recently changed the line of succession to the Italian throne to include females, but the fact of the matter remains that the Savoy-Aosta branch as well as various Italian monarchists have refused to recognize this change, arguing that such a change to the line of succession should await a monarchical restoration or something along those lines.)

Anyway, which additional examples of this have there been or, alternatively, will there likely be in the future based on our current knowledge?
 
The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The Carlist claim was also passed on distantly when the current Duke of Parma's grandfather became the Carlist pretender.
 
The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The Carlist claim was also passed on distantly when the current Duke of Parma's grandfather became the Carlist pretender.

Are you talking about the former Two Sicilies throne? If so, it looks like Prince Gabriel's male line would have inherited the claim to this throne after Prince Carlo's death if he wouldn't have actually changed the succession laws (or if one accepts his claim to the throne but refuses to actually consider his changes to the succession laws to be binding):

https://zims-en.kiwix.campusafrica....mer_throne_of_the_Kingdom_of_the_Two_Sicilies

As for the Carlist claim, I see--Prince Xavier inherited this claim to the Spanish throne in 1936 from his distant cousin Infante Alfonso Carlos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Xavier_of_Bourbon-Parma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infante_Alfonso_Carlos,_Duke_of_San_Jaime

I strongly suspect that they're both descended in the male line from French King Louis XIV's grandson, King Philip V of Spain, but I'll have to check to see if Philip V was their most recent common male-line ancestor.
 
As for the Carlist claim, I see--Prince Xavier inherited this claim to the Spanish throne in 1936 from his distant cousin Infante Alfonso Carlos:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Xavier_of_Bourbon-Parma

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infante_Alfonso_Carlos,_Duke_of_San_Jaime

I strongly suspect that they're both descended in the male line from French King Louis XIV's grandson, King Philip V of Spain, but I'll have to check to see if Philip V was their most recent common male-line ancestor.

I've no idea why the second article refers to him as Infante Alfonso Carlos, because it is extremely inconsistent. Either one accepts the Carlist claim and he was born as an Infante but died as King Alfonso Carlos I, or one does not accept the Carlist claim and he was Mr. Alfonso Carlos of Bourbon from birth to death.


Which cases have there been--or will there be--where a claim to a non-existent throne will passed onto distant cousins?

I can think of [...] the Savoy-Aosta branch inheriting the Legitimist/agnatic claim to the non-existent Italian throne after the male line of the House of Savoy will die out sometime this century (Emanuele Filiberto was born in 1972, and he has only daughters, so his line should die out in the 2070s or 2080s at the very latest, and more likely earlier than that--possibly in the 2050s and/or 2060s). (Yes, I know that the elder branch of the House of Savoy claimed to have recently changed the line of succession to the Italian throne to include females, but the fact of the matter remains that the Savoy-Aosta branch as well as various Italian monarchists have refused to recognize this change, arguing that such a change to the line of succession should await a monarchical restoration or something along those lines.)

For the Savoy-Aostas and the Italian monarchists who support their claim, the Savoy Aosta line has already inherited the claim from the elder branch. They argue that the current head of the elder branch married without the consent of his father (which he disputes) and was excluded from the succession.




The Duke of Calabria (well, one of them) also has 2 daughters, so it seemed that might solve the dispute but more recently he decided to make his daughters his heirs as well.

The claimant who has two daughters uses Duke of Castro. His elder daughter and heiress is the Duchess of Calabria for those who recognize his claim.

https://realcasadiborbone.it/en/
 
Depending what claimant lineage for Russian throne you are following you might end really far from last tsar of Russia.
 
When Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Stadtholder of the United Provinces and King of England, Scotland and Ireland died in 1702, his far-related cousin Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz became his claimant.

But there was a "Stadtholder-less Era" which lasted 35 years for Holland, Zealand, Utrecht, Guelders and shorter for other Provinces.

Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King William III of Great Britain) was a grandson of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Both grandmothers of Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Prince of Orange (coincidentally the closest shared ancestor to all current reigning European monarchies!) were granddaughters of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

So this fits the bill: a claim to a non existant throne passed to a distant cousin. The son of this distant cousin (Willem IV of Orange-Nassau) would become hereditary Stadtholder in all provinces (the second time that the Stadtholdership was declared hereditary) and with that effectively preluding on today's monarchy in the Netherlands as Willem-Alexander descends from this Johan Willem Friso.
 
Last edited:
When Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange, Stadtholder of the United Provinces and King of England, Scotland and Ireland died in 1702, his far-related cousin Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz became his claimant.

But there was a "Stadtholder-less Era" which lasted 35 years for Holland, Zealand, Utrecht, Guelders and shorter for other Provinces.

Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange (King William III of Great Britain) was a grandson of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

Both grandmothers of Johan Willem Friso of Nassau, Prince of Orange (coincidentally the closest shared ancestor to all current reigning European monarchies!) were granddaughters of Frederik Hendrik of Nassau, Prince of Orange.

So this fits the bill: a claim to a non existant throne passed to a distant cousin. The son of this distant cousin (Willem IV of Orange-Nassau) would become hereditary Stadtholder in all provinces (the second time that the Stadtholdership was declared hereditary) and with that effectively preluding on today's monarchy in the Netherlands as Willem-Alexander descends from this Johan Willem Friso.

Interesting.
 
Depending what claimant lineage for Russian throne you are following you might end really far from last tsar of Russia.

AFAIK, the current male-line Romanov dynasty descendants have no claim to the Russian throne due to them being descendants of morganatic marriages. However, I do think that it was rather cynical for the Vladimirovichi branch to refuse to approve of morganatic marriages when it was their distant cousins who were doing it while being willing to approve of a morganatic marriage when one of their own (Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia) was extremely recently doing it.
 
So, what happens to the succession?

Her son is still the Heir. When he is the Head of the House, he can declare his alliance to Rebecca Bettarini perfectly acceptable and create her an Imperial Highness and a Grand-Princess of Russia.

But in the situation that this couple has no heirs, the succession will continue in the princely House zu Leiningen.

The father of Maria Vladimirovna Romanova was Vladimir Kyrillovitch Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia (1917-1992).

When this line becomes without heirs, the closest line is that of his sister (Maria's aunt) Maria Kyrillovna Romanova, Fürstin zu Leiningen born Grand-Princess of Russia (1907-1951). The Zu Leiningens are her descendants.
 
Her son is still the Heir. When he is the Head of the House, he can declare his alliance to Rebecca Bettarini perfectly acceptable and create her an Imperial Highness and a Grand-Princess of Russia.

But in the situation that this couple has no heirs, the succession will continue in the princely House zu Leiningen.

The father of Maria Vladimirovna Romanova was Vladimir Kyrillovitch Romanov, Grand-Prince of Russia (1917-1992).

When this line becomes without heirs, the closest line is that of his sister (Maria's aunt) Maria Kyrillovna Romanova, Fürstin zu Leiningen born Grand-Princess of Russia (1907-1951). The Zu Leiningens are her descendants.

I guess that's the advantage of becoming the Head of the House yourself.

Trying to get a better understanding of the line of succession (I checked the marriages but not whether they are Russian Orthodox as apparently that can be arranged if needed).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
Note: I assume his other 2 children don't meet the requirements because their mother is either untitled or a countess)
4. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
5. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 4 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
6. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 5 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia
7. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 4; however, in unequal marriage, so his children won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
8. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
9. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
10. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 10; also in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 12)
14. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
15. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 14; in unequal marriage)
16. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 14; married to countess)


LINE OF KIRA
17. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
18. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (nephew to 17; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
19. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)
20. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)
 
Last edited:
The Zu Leiningens have a lot of alliances which are "equal" I must say.

Karl Emich zu Leiningen x Margarita von Hohenlohe

Andreas zu Leiningen x Alexandra von Hannover

Ferdinand zu Leiningen x Viktoria Luise von Preußen

But when Georg von Preußen / Georgy Mikhailovich Romanov and Rebecca Bettarini have a child, this whole whole Leningen-clan is on a distance again. We will see if the couple (not the youngest anymore) are able to build a family.
 
Also in the House of Wittelsbach the claim to the bavarian Thrpone will pass to a altthough not so distant Cousin as Duke Franz and his brother Max Emanuel have no sons.
The heir is Prince Luitpold. They are double related as his mother, the late Princess Irmingard was a halfsister of their father, the late Duke Albrecht.

Through the paternal line he is their second cousin and through the maternal line he is their cousin.


And in the House of Württemberg after the death of the last King Wilhelm II. in 1921 (it just 100 years ago) the Headship of the royal House passed to his distant cousin Duke Albrecht from the so called catholic line, which are the descendants of Duke Alexander, the youngest brother of King Friedrich I., of Württemberg.

However the next Head of the Royal House, Duke Wilhelm will also be a descendant of King Wilhelm II., as his mother Duchess Marie, née Princess zu Wied is a great-great-granddaugher of King Wilhelm II. through his daugther Pauline, who married into the House of Wied.
 
Last edited:
The claim to the throne of Portugal was inherited by the current duke Dom Duarte Pio's father after the death of King Manuel in 1932. Thereby he ended the struggle (sometimes an open war) for the throne that had been ongoing between the descendants of King Joao VI since 1828 and brought the united claim back into the House of Braganca.
 
In Romania, according to the last Constitution before the Communist dictatorship, the headship of the House should have passed from King Michael of Romania, Prinz von Hohenzollern to his cousin Karl Friedrich Fürst zu Hohenzollern.

As we know, on New Year's Eve 2007 King Michael issued the Normele Fundamentale ale Familiei Regale a României and created his daughters his Heirs.

Had he not done this, we would have seen the topic of this thread: the headship of a House going to a distant cousin. By the way: neither Karl Friedrich Fürst von Hohenzollern nor his son Alexander Erbprinz von Hohenzollern have shown interest in their Romanian "claim".
 
Last edited:
LINE OF KIRA
17. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
18. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (nephew to 17; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
19. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)
20. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)




What about Prince Georg Friedrich and his sons?
 
What about Prince Georg Friedrich and his sons?
That's what I was thinking as well. If the reason behind their exclusion is that they're heads of the House of Prussia one should remember that up until the death of Grand Duke Vladimir the claimant to the throne of Russia was also the Head of the House of Holstein-Gottorp proving that you can be the head of two houses at once.
 
I guess that's the advantage of becoming the Head of the House yourself.

Trying to get a better understanding of the line of succession (I checked the marriages but not whether they are Russian Orthodox as apparently that can be arranged if needed).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
Note: I assume his other 2 children don't meet the requirements because their mother is either untitled or a countess)
4. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
5. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 4 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
6. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 5 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia
7. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 4; however, in unequal marriage, so his children won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
8. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
9. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
10. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 10; also in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 12)
14. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
15. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 14; in unequal marriage)
16. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 14; married to countess)


LINE OF KIRA
17. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
18. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (nephew to 17; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
19. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)
20. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (sister of 18; in unequal marriage)


I believe the Russian succession is primogeniture with the younger son having preference over an elder sister. That means Cecilie zu Leiningen comes after her younger brother Emich. But indeed: is Emich's mother, a Gräfin von und zu Egloffstein, an acceptable partner?

I can see why Maria is so adamant on equality. After all, when Rebecca is acceptable, she has no hold against the more senior line of Roman Petrovich which married blue bloods:

Tsar Nicholas I x Princess Charlotte of Prussia
|
Peter Nicholaevich Romanov x Princess Milica Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro
|
Roman Petrovich Romanov x Countess Praskiova Dmitrievna Sheremeteva
|
Nicholas Romanovich Romanov x Countess Sveva della Gherardesca
|
Their issue all married Italian non-blue-bloods. If the Italian non-blue-blooded Rebecca is acceptable, why then not the Italian non-blue-blooded spouses to the daughters of Nicholas Romanovich Romanov and Sveva della Gherardesca?

:whistling:
 
Last edited:
I believe the Russian succession is primogeniture with the younger son having preference over an elder sister. That means Cecilie zu Leiningen comes after her younger brother Emich. But indeed: is Emich's mother, a Gräfin von und zu Egloffstein, an acceptable partner?
It is. The claim of Maria vladimirovna rests partly on her father being the last male dynast who passed his claim on to his closest female relative in accordance with the Pauline laws.
The Egloffsteins aren't a mediatized family, but I think that if the Leiningens accept the match as equal other families will do so as well. For instance was Dona of Schleswig-Holstein able to marry a future German emperor in spite of her grandmother being a mere Danish countess for the reason that her grandparent's marriage was in accordance with her family's house laws and therefore acceptable.
Their issue all married Italian non-blue-bloods. If the Italian non-blue-blooded Rebecca is acceptable, why then not the Italian non-blue-blooded spouses to the daughters of Nicholas Romanovich Romanov and Sveva della Gherardesca?

:whistling:
We see examples of that all the time in both reigning and non-reigning houses. Accepting that current generations marry unequally doesn't automatically mean that the dynastic status of the descendants of those in previous generations who did the same change. Unless, of course, it's decreed that so is the case. We've seen examples of that as well.
 
Last edited:
It is. The claim of Maria vladimirovna rests partly on her father being the last male dynast who passed his claim on to his closest female relative in accordance with the Pauline laws.

We see examples of that all the time in both reigning and non-reigning houses. Accepting that current generations marry unequally doesn't automatically mean that the dynastic status of the descendants of those in previous generations who did the same change. Unless, of course, it's decreed that so is the case. We've seen examples of that as well.

That is true, the sisters of Carl XVI Gustaf come to mind as an example, but here the claim is based on marrying dynastically acceptable partners or not. Maria Vladimirovna only outmanoeuvred Roman Petrovich because his marriage to Countess Praskiova Dmitrievna Sheremeteva was not dynastic, in contrary to her father's marriage to Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration (with all the yes - no - yes - no).

Her whole stand is solely based on that presumption. Let me word it differently: had Georgy married Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, to name an example, most likely all riddles about would fade out. A child of Georgy and Theodora would have 4 royal grandparents. Who would then still stand the claim of dynastically acceptable or not, the child being more royal than any other future monarch in all reigning Houses?

So this marriage with Rebecca, whom whom he seems to love to bits, is helpful for Georgy's personal happiness but not so for the case his mother fights for, her whole life long.
 
Last edited:
What about Prince Georg Friedrich and his sons?

As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.

That's what I was thinking as well. If the reason behind their exclusion is that they're heads of the House of Prussia one should remember that up until the death of Grand Duke Vladimir the claimant to the throne of Russia was also the Head of the House of Holstein-Gottorp proving that you can be the head of two houses at once.

So, no, it had nothing to do with being the Head of the house of Prussia; the Prince of Leiningen for example was included - if that would have been reason for exclusion, he wouldn't have been.
 
As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.


But Georg Friedrich's mother was a Countess from a mediatized Family and her father was a Fürst just like in the case of Cecile's maternal grandfather. Just that in the Castell Family all junior members are Count/Countess not Prince/Princess like in the different Hohenlohe branches.

The mother of Cecile's brother Emich is not from a mediatized Family
 
As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.



So, no, it had nothing to do with being the Head of the house of Prussia; the Prince of Leiningen for example was included - if that would have been reason for exclusion, he wouldn't have been.

I have the idea Castell-Rüdenhausen is a par with Leiningen.
From page 173, article 1250 (link below):

Bei den bayerische Standesherren im Sinne der Bundesakte handelt es sich um die Fürsten

Fugger-Babenhausen
Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst
Leiningen
Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg
Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg
Oettingen-Spielberg
Oettingen-Wallerstein
Thurn und Taxis

sowie um die Gräfen

Castell-Remlingen
Castell-Rüdenhausen
Fugger-Glött
Fugger-Kirchberg
Fugger-Kirchheim
Fugger-Weisenhorn
Giech
Orttenburg zu Trambach
Rechteren-Limburg
Schönborn
Waldbott-Bassenheim

[.....]

Allem voran sicherte es den Standesherren die Ebenbürtigkeit und denen weitere Zugehörigkeit zum hohen Adel zu.


Link:


https://books.google.nl/books?id=XB...&q=ebenbürtigkeit castell rüdenhausen&f=false
 
As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.

So, no, it had nothing to do with being the Head of the house of Prussia; the Prince of Leiningen for example was included - if that would have been reason for exclusion, he wouldn't have been.
I have the idea Castell-Rüdenhausen is a par with Leiningen.

Somebody, you're partly right. You got me on some of the details. Though the Castell-Rüdenhausens are a mediatized family and as such an acceptable match for a Prussian prince. That said such a match would have been frowned upon during the days of both the Kingdom and the Empire. Although equal they would still have been considered much to insignificant for the future head of the house. An example of that is how the future Emperor Karl of Austria were allegedly not permitted to marry a Hohenlohe princess who was considered to insignificant to become empress while his brother, who had little chance to ascend the throne, was later allowed to marry into the same family.
Duc has written good posts explaining the difference between equal, acceptable and suitable marriages.
For those who wonder who the mediatized families are and what they are, The Almanach da Gotha offers an explanation in the link below:

http://www.almanachdegotha.org/id62.html

If you find it confusing it is. What was once disparagingly called "the royal stud farms of Germany" were guided by conventions and rules that could turn the head inside out on the best of us. Added to the concept of royal and mediatized were also the belief that all members of the Uradel were equal which added even more confusion when it came to which marriages were acceptable for some and which weren't.
 
Last edited:
Thanks all. It definitely is confusing. The question, however, is not whether it is acceptable to the house of Leiningen, but whether it is acceptable to the Imperial House of Russia... However, (to keep it somewhat simple), if nobility is considered sufficient for a spouse (for their children to be included), several others would be included in the line of succession. N.B. I also noticed that I mistakenly left out princess Marie Cecile in the previous version (but included her children).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Prince Emich of Leiningen (only son of 2 by third wife countess Isabelle von und zu Egloffstein)
4. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
5. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
6. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 5 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
7. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 6 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia)
8. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 5; however, in unequal marriage, so any children he might have won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
9. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
10. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 11; also in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
14. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 13)
15. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
16. Alexander Friedrich Antonius Johannes, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (son of 15)
17. Princess Philippa Marie Carolina Isabelle of Hohenzollern (eldest daughter of 15)
18. Princess Flaminia Pia Eilika Stephanie of Hohenzollern (middle daughter of 15; married to Baron Károly von Stipsicz de Ternova)
19. Princess Antonia Elisabeth Georgina Tatiana of Hohenzollern (youngest daughter of 15)
20. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 15; in unequal marriage)
21. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 15; married to countess)

22. Prince Aloys Maria Friedrich Karl of Hohenzollern (eldest son of 21)
23. Prince Fidelis Maria Anton Alexis Hans (youngest son of 21)
24. Princess Victoria Margarita Sieglinde Johanna Isabella Maria (only daughter of 21)

LINE OF KIRA
25. Georg Friedrich, prince of Prussia (first cousin once removed to head; son of Louis Ferdinand, hereditary prince of Prussia and countess Donata of Castell-Rüdenhausen; himself a son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova and Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
26. Prince Carl Friedrich of Prussia (eldest son of 25)
27. Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (second son of 25)
28. Prince Heinrich of Prussia (youngest son of 25)
29. Princess Emma of Prussia (only daughter of 25)
30. Princess Cornelie-Cécile of Prussia (sister of 25)
31. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; married to a countess)
32. Prince Christian Ludwig Michael Friedrich Ferdinand of Prussia (only son of 31)
33. Princess Irina Maria Nina Kira of Prussia (only daughter of 31)
34. Princess Marie Cecile of Prussia (first cousin to head; eldest daughter of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; previously married to a duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg)
35. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (son of 34; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
36. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (eldest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)
37. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (youngest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)
 
Last edited:
Thanks all. It definitely is confusing. The question, however, is not whether it is acceptable to the house of Leiningen, but whether it is acceptable to the Imperial House of Russia... However, (to keep it somewhat simple), if nobility is considered sufficient for a spouse (for their children to be included), several others would be included in the line of succession. N.B. I also noticed that I mistakenly left out princess Marie Cecile in the previous version (but included her children).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Prince Emich of Leiningen (only son of 2 by third wife countess Isabelle von und zu Egloffstein)
4. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
5. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
6. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 5 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
7. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 6 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia)
8. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 5; however, in unequal marriage, so any children he might have won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
9. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
10. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 11; also in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
14. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 13)
15. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
16. Alexander Friedrich Antonius Johannes, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (son of 15)
17. Princess Philippa Marie Carolina Isabelle of Hohenzollern (eldest daughter of 15)
18. Princess Flaminia Pia Eilika Stephanie of Hohenzollern (middle daughter of 15; married to Baron Károly von Stipsicz de Ternova)
19. Princess Antonia Elisabeth Georgina Tatiana of Hohenzollern (youngest daughter of 15)
20. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 15; in unequal marriage)
21. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 15; married to countess)

22. Prince Aloys Maria Friedrich Karl of Hohenzollern (eldest son of 21)
23. Prince Fidelis Maria Anton Alexis Hans (youngest son of 21)
24. Princess Victoria Margarita Sieglinde Johanna Isabella Maria (only daughter of 21)

LINE OF KIRA
25. Georg Friedrich, prince of Prussia (first cousin once removed to head; son of Louis Ferdinand, hereditary prince of Prussia and countess Donata of Castell-Rüdenhausen; himself a son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova and Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
26. Prince Carl Friedrich of Prussia (eldest son of 25)
27. Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (second son of 25)
28. Prince Heinrich of Prussia (youngest son of 25)
29. Princess Emma of Prussia (only daughter of 25)
30. Princess Cornelie-Cécile of Prussia (sister of 25)
31. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; married to a countess)
32. Prince Christian Ludwig Michael Friedrich Ferdinand of Prussia (only son of 31)
33. Princess Irina Maria Nina Kira of Prussia (only daughter of 31)
34. Princess Marie Cecile of Prussia (first cousin to head; eldest daughter of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; previously married to a duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg)
35. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (son of 34; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
36. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (eldest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)
37. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (youngest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)

What about the surviving male-line Romanovs who would have to be reintroduced into the succession if their marriages would now be accepted retroactively as dynastic due to noble marriages now being acceptable? Do any surviving male-line Romanovs actually qualify for this? If so, which ones?
 
The closest is Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923) and he also descends from a noble union.

Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov (1866-1933) x Xenia Alexandrovna Romanova (1875-1960), sister of Tsar Nicholas II
|
Andrey Alexandrovich Romanov (1897-1981) x Donna Elisabetta dei duchi Ruffo Sasso di Sant' Antimo (1886-1940)
|
Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923)

Andrey himself and his descendants did not marry royals or aristocrats.
 
Last edited:
The closest is Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923) and he also descends from a noble union.

Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov (1866-1933) x Xenia Alexandrovna Romanova (1875-1960), sister of Tsar Nicholas II
|
Alexey Alexandrovich Romanov (1897-1981) x Donna Elisabetta dei duchi Ruffo Sasso di Sant' Antimo (1886-1940)
|
Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923)

Andrey himself and his descendants did not marry royals or aristocrats.

Have any male-line Romanovs married at least aristocrats non-stop up to the present-day?
 
Back
Top Bottom