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  #21  
Old 10-30-2021, 08:02 AM
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I believe the Russian succession is primogeniture with the younger son having preference over an elder sister. That means Cecilie zu Leiningen comes after her younger brother Emich. But indeed: is Emich's mother, a Gräfin von und zu Egloffstein, an acceptable partner?
It is. The claim of Maria vladimirovna rests partly on her father being the last male dynast who passed his claim on to his closest female relative in accordance with the Pauline laws.
The Egloffsteins aren't a mediatized family, but I think that if the Leiningens accept the match as equal other families will do so as well. For instance was Dona of Schleswig-Holstein able to marry a future German emperor in spite of her grandmother being a mere Danish countess for the reason that her grandparent's marriage was in accordance with her family's house laws and therefore acceptable.
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Their issue all married Italian non-blue-bloods. If the Italian non-blue-blooded Rebecca is acceptable, why then not the Italian non-blue-blooded spouses to the daughters of Nicholas Romanovich Romanov and Sveva della Gherardesca?

We see examples of that all the time in both reigning and non-reigning houses. Accepting that current generations marry unequally doesn't automatically mean that the dynastic status of the descendants of those in previous generations who did the same change. Unless, of course, it's decreed that so is the case. We've seen examples of that as well.
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  #22  
Old 10-30-2021, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
It is. The claim of Maria vladimirovna rests partly on her father being the last male dynast who passed his claim on to his closest female relative in accordance with the Pauline laws.

We see examples of that all the time in both reigning and non-reigning houses. Accepting that current generations marry unequally doesn't automatically mean that the dynastic status of the descendants of those in previous generations who did the same change. Unless, of course, it's decreed that so is the case. We've seen examples of that as well.
That is true, the sisters of Carl XVI Gustaf come to mind as an example, but here the claim is based on marrying dynastically acceptable partners or not. Maria Vladimirovna only outmanoeuvred Roman Petrovich because his marriage to Countess Praskiova Dmitrievna Sheremeteva was not dynastic, in contrary to her father's marriage to Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration (with all the yes - no - yes - no).

Her whole stand is solely based on that presumption. Let me word it differently: had Georgy married Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark, to name an example, most likely all riddles about would fade out. A child of Georgy and Theodora would have 4 royal grandparents. Who would then still stand the claim of dynastically acceptable or not, the child being more royal than any other future monarch in all reigning Houses?

So this marriage with Rebecca, whom whom he seems to love to bits, is helpful for Georgy's personal happiness but not so for the case his mother fights for, her whole life long.
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  #23  
Old 10-30-2021, 09:19 AM
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What about Prince Georg Friedrich and his sons?
As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.

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That's what I was thinking as well. If the reason behind their exclusion is that they're heads of the House of Prussia one should remember that up until the death of Grand Duke Vladimir the claimant to the throne of Russia was also the Head of the House of Holstein-Gottorp proving that you can be the head of two houses at once.
So, no, it had nothing to do with being the Head of the house of Prussia; the Prince of Leiningen for example was included - if that would have been reason for exclusion, he wouldn't have been.
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  #24  
Old 10-30-2021, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.



But Georg Friedrich's mother was a Countess from a mediatized Family and her father was a Fürst just like in the case of Cecile's maternal grandfather. Just that in the Castell Family all junior members are Count/Countess not Prince/Princess like in the different Hohenlohe branches.

The mother of Cecile's brother Emich is not from a mediatized Family
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  #25  
Old 10-30-2021, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.



So, no, it had nothing to do with being the Head of the house of Prussia; the Prince of Leiningen for example was included - if that would have been reason for exclusion, he wouldn't have been.
I have the idea Castell-Rüdenhausen is a par with Leiningen.
From page 173, article 1250 (link below):

Bei den bayerische Standesherren im Sinne der Bundesakte handelt es sich um die Fürsten

Fugger-Babenhausen
Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst
Leiningen
Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg
Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg
Oettingen-Spielberg
Oettingen-Wallerstein
Thurn und Taxis

sowie um die Gräfen

Castell-Remlingen
Castell-Rüdenhausen
Fugger-Glött
Fugger-Kirchberg
Fugger-Kirchheim
Fugger-Weisenhorn
Giech
Orttenburg zu Trambach
Rechteren-Limburg
Schönborn
Waldbott-Bassenheim

[.....]

Allem voran sicherte es den Standesherren die Ebenbürtigkeit und denen weitere Zugehörigkeit zum hohen Adel zu.


Link:


https://books.google.nl/books?id=XBA...hausen&f=false
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  #26  
Old 10-30-2021, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
As you may have noticed I specifically added several times that someone was married to a countess - and therefore their children were not included (for example Emich, the younger brother of Cecile was not included). This applies to prince Georg Friedrich as well - his father may have been a prince but his mother was a countess; which is why he isn't included. Many others were left out for the same reason.

So, no, it had nothing to do with being the Head of the house of Prussia; the Prince of Leiningen for example was included - if that would have been reason for exclusion, he wouldn't have been.
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I have the idea Castell-Rüdenhausen is a par with Leiningen.
Somebody, you're partly right. You got me on some of the details. Though the Castell-Rüdenhausens are a mediatized family and as such an acceptable match for a Prussian prince. That said such a match would have been frowned upon during the days of both the Kingdom and the Empire. Although equal they would still have been considered much to insignificant for the future head of the house. An example of that is how the future Emperor Karl of Austria were allegedly not permitted to marry a Hohenlohe princess who was considered to insignificant to become empress while his brother, who had little chance to ascend the throne, was later allowed to marry into the same family.
Duc has written good posts explaining the difference between equal, acceptable and suitable marriages.
For those who wonder who the mediatized families are and what they are, The Almanach da Gotha offers an explanation in the link below:

http://www.almanachdegotha.org/id62.html

If you find it confusing it is. What was once disparagingly called "the royal stud farms of Germany" were guided by conventions and rules that could turn the head inside out on the best of us. Added to the concept of royal and mediatized were also the belief that all members of the Uradel were equal which added even more confusion when it came to which marriages were acceptable for some and which weren't.
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  #27  
Old 10-30-2021, 01:32 PM
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Thanks all. It definitely is confusing. The question, however, is not whether it is acceptable to the house of Leiningen, but whether it is acceptable to the Imperial House of Russia... However, (to keep it somewhat simple), if nobility is considered sufficient for a spouse (for their children to be included), several others would be included in the line of succession. N.B. I also noticed that I mistakenly left out princess Marie Cecile in the previous version (but included her children).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Prince Emich of Leiningen (only son of 2 by third wife countess Isabelle von und zu Egloffstein)
4. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
5. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
6. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 5 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
7. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 6 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia)
8. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 5; however, in unequal marriage, so any children he might have won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
9. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
10. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 11; also in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
14. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 13)
15. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
16. Alexander Friedrich Antonius Johannes, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (son of 15)
17. Princess Philippa Marie Carolina Isabelle of Hohenzollern (eldest daughter of 15)
18. Princess Flaminia Pia Eilika Stephanie of Hohenzollern (middle daughter of 15; married to Baron Károly von Stipsicz de Ternova)
19. Princess Antonia Elisabeth Georgina Tatiana of Hohenzollern (youngest daughter of 15)
20. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 15; in unequal marriage)
21. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 15; married to countess)

22. Prince Aloys Maria Friedrich Karl of Hohenzollern (eldest son of 21)
23. Prince Fidelis Maria Anton Alexis Hans (youngest son of 21)
24. Princess Victoria Margarita Sieglinde Johanna Isabella Maria (only daughter of 21)

LINE OF KIRA
25. Georg Friedrich, prince of Prussia (first cousin once removed to head; son of Louis Ferdinand, hereditary prince of Prussia and countess Donata of Castell-Rüdenhausen; himself a son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova and Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
26. Prince Carl Friedrich of Prussia (eldest son of 25)
27. Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (second son of 25)
28. Prince Heinrich of Prussia (youngest son of 25)
29. Princess Emma of Prussia (only daughter of 25)
30. Princess Cornelie-Cécile of Prussia (sister of 25)
31. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; married to a countess)
32. Prince Christian Ludwig Michael Friedrich Ferdinand of Prussia (only son of 31)
33. Princess Irina Maria Nina Kira of Prussia (only daughter of 31)
34. Princess Marie Cecile of Prussia (first cousin to head; eldest daughter of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; previously married to a duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg)
35. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (son of 34; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
36. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (eldest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)
37. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (youngest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)
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  #28  
Old 10-30-2021, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Thanks all. It definitely is confusing. The question, however, is not whether it is acceptable to the house of Leiningen, but whether it is acceptable to the Imperial House of Russia... However, (to keep it somewhat simple), if nobility is considered sufficient for a spouse (for their children to be included), several others would be included in the line of succession. N.B. I also noticed that I mistakenly left out princess Marie Cecile in the previous version (but included her children).

LINE of VLADIMIR
1. Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Romanov (son of Head)

LINE of MARIA
2. Prince Karl Emich of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of Emich Kyrill - married to Duchess Eilika of Oldenburg, himself the eldest son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen)
3. Prince Emich of Leiningen (only son of 2 by third wife countess Isabelle von und zu Egloffstein)
4. Princess Cécilia of Leiningen (eldest daughter of 2 by his first wife princess Margarita of Hohenlohe-Öhringen)
5. Prince Andreas of Leiningen (brother of 2)
6. Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen (son of 5 by princess Alexandra of Hanover)
7. Princess Alexandra Ehrengard of Leiningen (daughter of 6 by princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia)
8. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger son of 5; however, in unequal marriage, so any children he might have won't be included - using the same logic as George remaining a heir)
9. Princess Olga of Leiningen (daughter of 4)
10. Princess Melita of Leiningen (sister of 2; however, in unequal marriage)
11. Prince Boris of Leiningen (first cousin once removed of Head; son of prince Karl of Leiningen & princess Marie Louise of Bulgaria; himself the second son of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
12. Prince Hermann of Leiningen (younger brother of 11; also in unequal marriage)
13. Prince Karl Vladimir Cyril Andrej of Yugoslavia (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Kira Melita of Leiningen & prince Andrej of Yugoslavia; herself the eldest daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; in unequal marriage)
14. Prince Dimitri Ivan Mihailo of Yugoslavia (younger brother of 13)
15. Karl Friedrich, prince of Hohenzollern (first cousin once removed of Head; son of princess Margarita of Leiningen and Friedrich Wilhelm, (hereditary) prince of Hohenzollern; herself the second daughter of Maria Kyrillovna Romanova - married to Prince Friedrich Karl zu Leiningen; married to countess).
16. Alexander Friedrich Antonius Johannes, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (son of 15)
17. Princess Philippa Marie Carolina Isabelle of Hohenzollern (eldest daughter of 15)
18. Princess Flaminia Pia Eilika Stephanie of Hohenzollern (middle daughter of 15; married to Baron Károly von Stipsicz de Ternova)
19. Princess Antonia Elisabeth Georgina Tatiana of Hohenzollern (youngest daughter of 15)
20. Prince Albrecht Johannes of Hohenzollern (younger brother of 15; in unequal marriage)
21. Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (youngest brother of 15; married to countess)

22. Prince Aloys Maria Friedrich Karl of Hohenzollern (eldest son of 21)
23. Prince Fidelis Maria Anton Alexis Hans (youngest son of 21)
24. Princess Victoria Margarita Sieglinde Johanna Isabella Maria (only daughter of 21)

LINE OF KIRA
25. Georg Friedrich, prince of Prussia (first cousin once removed to head; son of Louis Ferdinand, hereditary prince of Prussia and countess Donata of Castell-Rüdenhausen; himself a son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova and Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia)
26. Prince Carl Friedrich of Prussia (eldest son of 25)
27. Prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (second son of 25)
28. Prince Heinrich of Prussia (youngest son of 25)
29. Princess Emma of Prussia (only daughter of 25)
30. Princess Cornelie-Cécile of Prussia (sister of 25)
31. Prince Christian-Sigismund of Prussia (first cousin to head; 4th son of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; married to a countess)
32. Prince Christian Ludwig Michael Friedrich Ferdinand of Prussia (only son of 31)
33. Princess Irina Maria Nina Kira of Prussia (only daughter of 31)
34. Princess Marie Cecile of Prussia (first cousin to head; eldest daughter of Kira Kirillovna Romanova - married to Louis Ferdinand, prince of Prussia; previously married to a duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg)
35. Duke Paul-Wladimir Nikolaus Louis-Ferdinand Peter Max Karl-Emich of Oldenburg (son of 34; son of princess Marie Cecile of Prussia and Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg; in unequal marriage - his wife is the granddaughter of Karl, 8th Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg)
36. Duchess Rixa Marie-Alix Kira Altburg of Oldenburg (eldest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)
37. Duchess Bibiane Marie Alexandra Gertrud of Oldenburg (youngest daughter of 34; in unequal marriage)
What about the surviving male-line Romanovs who would have to be reintroduced into the succession if their marriages would now be accepted retroactively as dynastic due to noble marriages now being acceptable? Do any surviving male-line Romanovs actually qualify for this? If so, which ones?
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  #29  
Old 10-31-2021, 07:26 AM
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The closest is Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923) and he also descends from a noble union.

Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov (1866-1933) x Xenia Alexandrovna Romanova (1875-1960), sister of Tsar Nicholas II
|
Andrey Alexandrovich Romanov (1897-1981) x Donna Elisabetta dei duchi Ruffo Sasso di Sant' Antimo (1886-1940)
|
Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923)

Andrey himself and his descendants did not marry royals or aristocrats.
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  #30  
Old 10-31-2021, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The closest is Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923) and he also descends from a noble union.

Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov (1866-1933) x Xenia Alexandrovna Romanova (1875-1960), sister of Tsar Nicholas II
|
Alexey Alexandrovich Romanov (1897-1981) x Donna Elisabetta dei duchi Ruffo Sasso di Sant' Antimo (1886-1940)
|
Andrey Andreyevich Romanov (1923)

Andrey himself and his descendants did not marry royals or aristocrats.
Have any male-line Romanovs married at least aristocrats non-stop up to the present-day?
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