The Queen, the Obamas and the G20 Summit: April 2, 2009

[Moonmaiden23]

Charming response Johnnie, thank you.

And I'd undoubtedly share your view if Mrs Obama had been the one to initiate the contact but she did not...it was Lilibet herself who got got the ball rolling, as it were.

Of course I'd prefer if Mrs Obama had kept her hands to herself...but only because I knew the tiresome media hacks would blow this thing up into some type of international incident.

 

[pamk]

My Dear California Dreamin', it's simply a matter of good graces. And as for Mr. Bush, well, he is quite another matter, altogether. One blessed with any sense of intelligence could rightly observe that Mr. Bush was quite without class of any sort.

I do believe the "nitpicking" as you deem it, is a result of the fact that one must ALWAYS remember who they are, where they are, and with whom they are interacting with, regardless of the circumstances of the interaction.

And do be more positive about yourself; after all, not all Americans are peons. There are some well bred ones, to be sure.

"one must overlook the social differences of the Americans."

Johnnie: As an American, I am absolutely dumbfounded at these two highlighted statements which you made ...

My thoughts on the social graces of Canadians? I won't give you the satisfaction of knowing ...

 

[kbear]

It was, and is, the perrogative of Her Majesty to interact with a guest in her presence as She wishes. Granted, She did in fact reach out and initiate the physical contact. That said, Mrs. Obama (or anyone, for that matter) MUST exercise both caution and common sense when the aformentioned occurs.

While some may argue no disrespect was intended, and I concur, one must realize that a certain level of respect was absent.

Hmm failing to return the gesture would have lead to a media frenzy about the cold unfeeling woman who snubbed her Majesty the Queen of England when she made a gesture of warmth and friendship.... Cannot believe this is still an issue there was no tongue kissing lets get over it

 

[Russophile]

.... there was no tongue kissing

Psst! Warren says that's on YouTube curtosey of the National Enquirer. . . .

 

[kbear]

Oooohhh does he have a link????? That I will watch

 

[Russophile]

Oooohhh does he have a link????? That I will watch

That's Off the record, on the QT, and very hush-hush. . . .

 

[platinum69]

No matter what, the protocol was breached. Her Majesty can do whatever she wishes, She is The Queen. We are talking about centuries-old tradition and Michelle Obama's action was simply a mistake, she should not have touched the Queen. The whole thing shows disrespect to the Queen and the Institution of the Monarchy.

 

[Madame Royale]

Having read through this thread, and having myself expressed an opinion, I tend to agree with Skydragon's reasoning. My initial reaction was 'how sweet an expression' and I viewed the situation as many typical commoners would. Of course.

From outside the fish bowl, however, we gaze with enthusiasm and generally delight in such things, though 'inside' there are ways to express oneself in adherence to the protocols and etiquette of the established concurrence and they should be, imo, observed. It's why they are instituted in the first place, afterall.

I don't think we'll see Mrs Obama do it again.

 

[Roslyn]

No matter what, the protocol was breached. Her Majesty can do whatever she wishes, She is The Queen. We are talking about centuries-old tradition and Michelle Obama's action was simply a mistake, she should not have touched the Queen. The whole thing shows disrespect to the Queen and the Institution of the Monarchy.

Just because something is a "centuries-old tradition" does not make it right or mean we should continue to act in accordance with that tradition merely because it is centuries-old. Some are worth keeping and observing but that is because they are inherently worthy. Some, however, are now illegal as being in breach of anti-discrimination or other legislation and contemporary social standards.

HM is a much-loved, much respected monarch, but I feel very, very uneasy about the Queen being accorded some sort of special status over and above that which is due to the democratically elected Head of State of a modern Republic like the United States of America and his wife.

 

[Madame Royale]

Special status?

Respective Heads of State they may be, though obide by the same styles of protocol and etiquette? Not necessarily, no. Such dictates of what is the norm vary, and have always varied between monarchy and republic. They are generally observed and esteemed by the other in view of what has been culturally established. Whether it be a thousand years or a few hundred.

These are but a few of the differences which for which they are known and for which make them, respectively, diverse.

I still find the moment quite endearing, regardless of what I think should have been the appropriate response of Mrs Obama.

 

[Skydragon]

Just because something is a "centuries-old tradition" does not make it right or mean we should continue to act in accordance with that tradition merely because it is centuries-old. Some are worth keeping and observing but that is because they are inherently worthy. Some, however, are now illegal as being in breach of anti-discrimination or other legislation and contemporary social standards.

HM is a much-loved, much respected monarch, but I feel very, very uneasy about the Queen being accorded some sort of special status over and above that which is due to the democratically elected Head of State of a modern Republic like the United States of America and his wife.

Who gets to pick which centuries old traditions are discarded though? The Monarch has been accorded a special status throughout history, why should that be changed. Should we do away with the protocols asked of every person who meets HM, to accommodate the wife of the present US president? Will it be acceptable when the next president of the US or his/her spouse manhandles HM, or an unpopular HoS. Where do we stop, should everyone meeting HM be allowed to be touchy feely, if not, why not?

 

[Elspeth]

Erm - manhandles? Mrs Obama just put her arm round HM in response to the Queen touching her; that doesn't strike me as manhandling. I'm sure she was given all sorts of protocol pointers, and I'm equally sure they didn't include what to do if the Queen initiated physical contact. She was probably at a complete loss about what to do, and I'm sure she wasn't trying to be offensive.

 

[Skydragon]

MO did not attempt to move or guide HM, that is true but what I asked was

Will it be acceptable when the next president of the US or his/her spouse manhandles HM, or an unpopular HoS. Where do we stop, should everyone meeting HM be allowed to be touchy feely,

Can anyone imagine the 1000s of people HM meets every year, are they all allowed to hold HM, if not, why not? Why should an exception be made for the spouse of the current president?

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Can anyone imagine the 1000s of people HM meets every year, are they all allowed to hold HM, if not, why not? Why should an exception be made for the spouse of the current president?

Exactly. The Obamas are popular and media favourites, the "couple of the hour", just imagine Sarah or even Gordon Brown, Berlusconi or Sarkozy had done a similar thing. We would have a similar coverage, but opposite way: not "how warm or refreshing" but "how does she / he dare".

And yes, where do we stop? If Michelle Obama can do it, why not everyone else who gets the opportunity. I can already imagine Bruce Forsyth swirling HM around when he finally receives his nighthood, or Joe Calzaghe lifting her up

There is a reason why there is a protocol and it should be respected by everyone, without exception.

 

[Empress]

Look, she broke protocol. I am sure she is not the first, nor will she be the last. In any event, the Queen herself has clearly moved on from this massive international incident and so should we.

 

[Odette]

Having seen that video more than once I disagree that the Queen reached out and hugged Mrs Obama. However this is up to everyone's interpretation. This is a lady who showed up for a reception in her own "house" wearing gloves to shake strangers' hands. This is the same lady who did not hug her own grown children in public. I highly doubt she instantly fell under the spell of Mrs Obama and broke her rules.
In any case I am sure the Queen moved on and perhaps Mrs Obama's handlers can have her clasp a handbag next time she feels like hugging someone.
For someone who loathes being hugged by strangers I can understand how someone not used to these public expressions of affection may feel.
Still there is an upside to all this. The Queen may have had received a neck rub instead of the famous by now hug..........

 

[Johnnie]

Pamk wrote: "Johnnie: As an American, I am absolutely dumbfounded at these two highlighted statements which you made ... My thoughts on the social graces of Canadians? I won't give you the satisfaction of knowing ..."

My, quite the tempest in the teapot! Well, first of all, Pamk, I'll have you know that I myself am not a Canadian, thank you. Secondly, I am dumbfounded as to your being dumbfounded. Furthermore, I very much doubt that I shall be unsatisfied by not reading your opinions of the social graces (or lack of, judging from your "tone") of the fine Canadian people.
I adore my adopted land of the Maple Leaf. Canada is a brilliant country; quite unique on the world stage, if I do say so myself.

There, now, back to Her Majesty and that Mrs. Obama person.

There will always be an England!

Good day to you, Pamk. Cheers!

 

[Johnnie]

Platinum69 wrote: "No matter what, the protocol was breached. Her Majesty can do whatever she wishes, She is The Queen. We are talking about centuries-old tradition and Michelle Obama's action was simply a mistake, she should not have touched the Queen. The whole thing shows disrespect to the Queen and the Institution of the Monarchy."

Thank you. It would seem that logical heads do prevail. My, but it's amusing how it would appear that it is primarily the non-British who are getting their knickers in a twist over the matter of this issue being discussed. Bless them.

But I do concur that this topic is getting, like a Yorkshire Pudding in the oven too long - rather overdone.

Her Majesty looked radiant during the receptions and during the photo calls.

Cheers.

 

[Al_bina]

It is truly refreshing to see the voices of reason among the mass hysteria. I fully agree with Duke of Marmalade stating:

There is a reason why there is a protocol and it should be respected by everyone, without exception.

Protocol is protocol, don't touch, full stop. The whole handling only shows HM's class and larger-than-life personality.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Having seen that video more than once I disagree that the Queen reached out and hugged Mrs Obama. However this is up to everyone's interpretation. This is a lady who showed up for a reception in her own "house" wearing gloves to shake strangers' hands. This is the same lady who did not hug her own grown children in public. I highly doubt she instantly fell under the spell of Mrs Obama and broke her rules.
In any case I am sure the Queen moved on and perhaps Mrs Obama's handlers can have her clasp a handbag next time she feels like hugging someone.
For someone who loathes being hugged by strangers I can understand how someone not used to these public expressions of affection may feel.
Still there is an upside to all this. The Queen may have had received a neck rub instead of the famous by now hug..........

No Odette HM did NOT hug Mrs Obama. She reached out and put her hand on the small of the First Lady's back...and Mrs Obama responded.

If protocol is defined as no touching of the Royal person, then it is only polite and correct that the Royal Person not reach out and touch anyone else, particularly if the other person is not a subject. That person herself might have an aversion to being touched after all. This is not the Middle Ages nor pre-Revolutionary France. Like it or not these are democratic times and while I've nothing against protocol(I'm actually rather a stickler for it) I think it should apply both ways.

Even His Holiness the Pope has no such rules against touching him, for crying out loud.

I realize we are all never going to agree on this.

 

[Elspeth]

MO did not attempt to move or guide HM, that is true but what I asked was

Will it be acceptable when the next president of the US or his/her spouse manhandles HM, or an unpopular HoS. Where do we stop, should everyone meeting HM be allowed to be touchy feely,

Can anyone imagine the 1000s of people HM meets every year, are they all allowed to hold HM, if not, why not? Why should an exception be made for the spouse of the current president?

The exception was made because the Queen touched her first. That being the case, I don't see where it sets any sort of precedent. Given the usual sorts of protocol instructions about taking one's lead from the behaviour of the royal personage, Mrs Obama was put in a position where she probably didn't have any protocol instructions to help her, just the (in this case) contradictory "don't be over-familiar with the Queen" and "take your cue from the Queen's behaviour" guidelines.

Honestly, from the outrage expressed by some of the people here, you'd think the Queen had been standing there in splendid isolation, minding her own business, and Mrs Obama had bounded up like an out-of-control labrador puppy and given her a big bear hug.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Well put Elspeth..I agree 100%. The Queen broke her OWN protocol, and in that case while Mrs Obama's response might have been unusual, it was not a real breach at all, in my opinion.

She didn't gallop across the room and tackle her or anything like that.

It's all so silly.

 

[Skydragon]

The exception was made because the Queen touched her first. That being the case, I don't see where it sets any sort of precedent. Given the usual sorts of protocol instructions about taking one's lead from the behaviour of the royal personage, Mrs Obama was put in a position where she probably didn't have any protocol instructions to help her, just the (in this case) contradictory "don't be over-familiar with the Queen" and "take your cue from the Queen's behaviour" guidelines.

As far as I can ascertain, there is no 'take your cue from HMs behavior' and she certainly blew the 'don't be over familiar with HM'. It was simply protocol that others have managed to stick to and know about without having it written out on the back of their hand. It was an unfortunate mistake by MO, that a simple guiding hand is seen as a reason for an arm around the shoulders.

Mrs Obama had bounded up like an out-of-control labrador puppy

 

[COUNTESS]

Hardly a mistake. Just a human reaction. Too bad you don't consider the queen human. That's all she is. Everything else is man made silliness, to evoke power. That power is long gone. She just a nice old lady, who represents her nation as a titular head. She is not a goddess. She is touchable.

 

[kbear]

and we are all still TOUCHY FEELY on the subject.... This was not the formal presentation and by God let no one assume a Precedent has been set this was an informal gesture in a conversation between two intelligent women. (I know Hm is a smart lady am assuming M OBama is from education) I still get mad thinking about that Keating SOB daring to assume to touch HM but I believe this was different in so many ways. So still waiting for more damning utube evidence Im sure someone will manufacture what wasnt real at some point.. If HM had stepped slightly away held herself rigid or if the Palace had responded with a diplomatic "Mrs obama was probably unaware of the protocol" I would be offended for HM. Instead we get "a mutual gesture of affection" Probably as close to kiss me honey as BP will ever get

 

[Skydragon]

She is touchable.

Not according to the protocol of the country that was hosting MO. Some from the US need to realise they cannot change the rules of another country, as and when it suits them.

and we are all still TOUCHY FEELY on the subject....

Some more so than others it would seem who see any justified criticism of the (at the moment) popular presidents wife as a personal attack.

I still get mad thinking about that Keating SOB daring to assume to touch HM but I believe this was different in so many ways.

I keep asking this WHY is it different?

If HM had stepped slightly away

She disengaged herself pretty damn quick.

or if the Palace had responded with a diplomatic "Mrs obama was probably unaware of the protocol"

And cause an international incident, when Brown is busy playing a poodle?

 

[Roslyn]

I still get mad thinking about that Keating SOB daring to assume to touch HM but I believe this was different in so many ways.

I keep asking this WHY is it different?

Because it was Keating.

 

[Warren]

Oh Roslyn, are you inferring that Paul Keating may have been a somewhat polarising PM?

It is truly refreshing to see the voices of reason among the mass hysteria.

It's not an effective debating tactic to accuse the other side of "mass hysteria".
There has been no hysteria in this discussion, mass or otherwise, and there's no need for excessive hyperbole.

 

[Skydragon]

I got the distinct impression Roslyn was not that keen on the man!

 

[kbear]

Not according to the protocol of the country that was hosting MO. Some from the US need to realise they cannot change the rules of another country, as and when it suits them.
Now this we agree completely on
Some more so than others it would seem who see any justified criticism of the (at the moment) popular presidents wife as a personal attack.
Ahh not American so far have no problem with the Obamas (anything was going to be a trade up) but not a particular fan.
I keep asking this WHY is it different?
Hmm yep its the Keating thing up to a point, possibly because it was a woman and probably because it was mutual

She disengaged herself pretty damn quick.
To be fair neither was holding on
And cause an international incident, when Brown is busy playing a poodle?

Got me on the last HM is a lady but I dont recall her defending Keating