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  #321  
Old 08-29-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is true that The Queen has to taken the counsel of the Prime Minister. But this Prime Minister has no majority on his own and only with support of the DUP they have a majority of ONE vote. Taking into account the highly controversial time-path and the October 31 deadline, the Queen could have delayed it by holding it into Her Most Excellent Majesty's gracious consideration indeed and request to receive other politicians in audience.

Most likely this would not have changed anything, but at least it would have given the impression the Queen has held it in serious consideration and has finally approved with the Motion to prorogue Parliament.

But this: on her holiday destination, waiting in the library, buzzzzz, three gentlemen come forward, the Queen nods and says "approved" and that was it. In Spain, the Netherlands or Norway, the King could have requested to see the Leader of the Opposition at the palace, to hear his/her opinion. They can command a special Council. They can discuss it with the Prime Minister in a second audience. But just approve like this: it is as if she has just hired a new cleaner for the bathrooms at Balmoral. A nod and "approved".
I do not agree with you, in Spain what is happening in Britain is not possible, because in Spain, a change of political leader in the conservatives, does not grant him the right to be president of government. The succession Teresa May by Boris Jhonson, as Prime Minister derived from a change of leadership in conservatives, would not be possible in Spain.

The king is the one who proposes in the parliament, from among the leaders of the political parties, to the politician who aspires to be Prime Minister, who should receive the vote of the parliament. But in case, as it happens today, that no candidate obtains that vote of confidence, the King can: - To call elections or- can proposes a neutral candidate, to the parliament, in attention to the general interest. The state cannot constantly be holding general elections, when the result does not vary from one election to another, it is spending the money, and damaging the stability of the country. Many experts have demanded that the King exercise that competence," to proposes a neutral candidate", in last year's elections and now also. But King Felipe has opted for not exercising those powers, to ingest as little as possible, he has also been criticized for that attitude . Queen Elizabeth has done the same, she has powers that she can exercise, but she as King Felipe chooses to avoid that constitutional intervention. In Britain there has been a referendum, the BREXIT is a decision of the British people, this must be taken into account, Labor wants the queen to prevent the fulfillment of the will of the people expressed in a referendum. Queen Elizabeth has acted correctly, because that referendum cannot be forgotten, it must be the British people who revoke it, she does not. She has acted constitutionally
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  #322  
Old 08-29-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Alastair Bruce described the meeting on Sky news.

He said Jacob Rees-Mogg and the two other privy councillors were picked up at the airport and brought to the castle. Theyre met by the Queens equerry and lady in waiting. The Queen is in the library waiting and when shes ready she presses a buzzer and the politicians are brought in.

They stand before a table with a red cloth over it and a candle in the centre. The Lord President of the Council reads out the motion and The Queen nods her head and says approved.

Thats it. The politicians fly back to London and the Queen goes back to enjoying her holiday.
I was skeptical about this (presumably the meeting would have been very private) so I tracked down the video. Alastair Bruce described what may have happened, not what did happen. At one point he even states "the Queen would probably have been waiting in the library" [boldfacing mine].

https://twitter.com/i/status/1166739607469383680

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
When does the Prime Minister make the traditional trip to Balmoral for the weekend?

In some ways I can't help but wonder if the Queen and her aides would rather it was all kept quite low key this time around.
I suspect there will be an early frost at Balmoral this year.
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  #323  
Old 08-29-2019, 11:54 AM
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SLV SLV is offline
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A very clear explanation about how this works. Thank you for posting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
I was skeptical about this (presumably the meeting would have been very private) so I tracked down the video. Alastair Bruce described what may have happened, not what did happen. At one point he even states "the Queen would probably have been waiting in the library" [boldfacing mine].

https://twitter.com/i/status/1166739607469383680
  #324  
Old 08-29-2019, 12:27 PM
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We have seen videos (not fora long while now tbf) of Privy Council meetings and we have seen and heard plenty about the Queen's holidays at Balmoral. Given that Alastair Bruce is also an extra equerry to The Earl of Wessex his thought on what happened is probably the closest we are going to get to "inside info".
  #325  
Old 08-29-2019, 12:49 PM
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The queen may have stayed in the lines regarding her position but people are blaming her as well as Johnson for this suspension. #abolishthe monarchy is trending on Twitter and the queen is getting dragged. Andrew's mess is being conflated into this too. The extravagant lives of the royals are tossed in for good measure. People are upset when unsure what's going to happen but it's scary when references to the Romanovs and Oliver Crommell pop up in posts.
  #326  
Old 08-29-2019, 12:54 PM
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^ I think its likely to be a mistake to take 'Twitter' outbursts to be an accurate measure of the political temperature of a Nation.
  #327  
Old 08-29-2019, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARG View Post
I find myself thinking how hard HM must have found this. She is perfectly aware of the consequences of this action and I think political pundits would be hard pressed to find a situation or political machinations that she couldn't see coming and has seen all the vainglorious plots and counter-plots before in one way or another.

I would even venture to say she gave Boris a serious talking to before she was finally able to leave for Balmoral. Unlike many MP's, I wouldn't mind betting that her boxes are well read and, on occasion discussed with Charles who also is in receipt of boxes.

What is the purpose of reading boxes if she has zero comma zero room to have anything to say about it at all? Do you really believe the Queen has any snippet of influence on the Agreement on Cooperation and Mutual Administrative Assistance in Customs Matters, on the National flood and coastal erosion risk management strategy for England, on the Additional Protocol to the Convention on the Contract for the International Carriage of Goods by Road (CMR) concerning the Electronic Consignment Note, and other most enjoyable lecture for a holiday at Balmoral?

The Queen just puts some ink out of a stylo on the dotted line, marked by the Secretary. The sheer size of all daily papers would make that the Queen has to read more hours than there are in a day to have one red box "done". Away with the myth that Her Most Excellent Majesty truly reads ALL her red boxes with her Very Own Most Gracious Eyes to form Her Most Royal Opinion about it. Every simple soul can calculate that this is im-pos-si-ble.

And it has no any purpose: "Prime Minister, in my opinion the obliged profile depth of rubber tyres on lorries should be 2 mm more."
The PM: "Ma'am, I truly am grateful for Your Most Excellent Observation indeed, which the Cabinet surely will take into consideration"
  #328  
Old 08-29-2019, 12:59 PM
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A Labour Member of Parliament tweeted this, either from ignorance or mischief:
Quote:
The Queen should look at what happened to her cousin Tino ex King of Greece when you enable a right wing coup!
Monarchy abolished!
  #329  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
We have seen videos (not fora long while now tbf) of Privy Council meetings and we have seen and heard plenty about the Queen's holidays at Balmoral. Given that Alastair Bruce is also an extra equerry to The Earl of Wessex his thought on what happened is probably the closest we are going to get to "inside info".
An educated guess but a guess nonetheless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
What is the purpose of reading boxes if she has zero comma zero room to have anything to say about it at all? Do you really believe the Queen has any snippet of influence on the Agreement on Cooperation and Mutual Administrative Assistance in Customs Matters, on the National flood and coastal erosion risk management strategy for England, on the Additional Protocol to the Convention on the Contract for the International Carriage of Goods by Road (CMR) concerning the Electronic Consignment Note, and other most enjoyable lecture for a holiday at Balmoral?

The Queen just puts some ink out of a stylo on the dotted line, marked by the Secretary. The sheer size of all daily papers would make that the Queen has to read more hours than there are in a day to have one red box "done". Away with the myth that Her Most Excellent Majesty truly reads ALL her red boxes with her Very Own Most Gracious Eyes to form Her Most Royal Opinion about it. Every simple soul can calculate that this is im-pos-si-ble.

And it has no any purpose: "Prime Minister, in my opinion the obliged profile depth of rubber tyres on lorries should be 2 mm more."
The PM: "Ma'am, I truly am grateful for Your Most Excellent Observation indeed, which the Cabinet surely will take into consideration"
This whole affair and the events leading up to it have exposed the weaknesses in the British political system, just as the 2016 presidential election revealed flaws in the American system. What a pity the Queen has been dragged into it.
  #330  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
^ I think its likely to be a mistake to take 'Twitter' outbursts to be an accurate measure of the political temperature of a Nation.
Yes and no. Often times social media can be well ahead of the curve in sensing undercurrents that turn into full blown tidal waves.

If more analysts had paid attention to where the energy and conversation was happening on social media, lots of "political surprises" like Trump or Brexit wouldn't have been so seemingly out of right field.

Which is all to say that while Twitter isn't the country, not paying attention to where the chatter and energy is is a dangerous thing. It is certainly a fine balance, of course.

The monarchy will be tested in the coming months and years. Brexit will be a seismic shift in British life. During such moments, even seemingly sacrosanct norms and institutions come under questioning as people begin to cast blame, fear, and etc. Boris Johnson has truly placed the Queen in a hard position---and I imagine he rather knew exactly what he was doing too.

My point is that no one, not the Queen, not monarchists, not even us "just in for the fun" royal watchers, should assume that the monarchy's support is so rigid that hurricane force winds can't snap it.
  #331  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:13 PM
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There are some claims that the Defence Secretary's admission as to the real reasons for proroguing parliament mean that the Queen has been misled.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1167066029106876416
  #332  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:14 PM
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A relevant article from the House of Commons Library itself.

https://t.co/4jBOnSBRCZ?amp=1
  #333  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:32 PM
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It’s not up to the Queen to decide whether a reason to prorogue Parliament is ‘legitimate’. That’s for her ministers to decide. HM’s role is to follow the advice of her PM.
  #334  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:49 PM
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The Member of Parliament for Edinburgh SW has referred the matter to a legal team.
Quote:
I’ve drawn this admission to the attention of our legal team. Defence Secretary backs up what we contend - that #prorogation of Parliament is for an improper purpose & therefore unlawful
https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/st...69450232881152
  #335  
Old 08-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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I think people use social media to vent. So it's to be expected many of the comments are negative. But I'm surprised and troubled that so many people misunderstand the Queen's role and blame her in addition to the PM. Having entangled her in this controversy it would nice if Johnson would publicly clarify the Queen was only performing her constitutional duty when she assented to his request.
  #336  
Old 08-29-2019, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
I think people use social media to vent. So it's to be expected many of the comments are negative. But I'm surprised and troubled that so many people misunderstand the Queen's role and blame her in addition to the PM. Having entangled her in this controversy it would nice if Johnson would publicly clarify the Queen was only performing her constitutional duty when she assented to his request.
It suits Johnson better if people believe the Queen agrees with his actions.
  #337  
Old 08-29-2019, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
It’s not up to the Queen to decide whether a reason to prorogue Parliament is ‘legitimate’. That’s for her ministers to decide. HM’s role is to follow the advice of her PM.

Exactly ! It looks like many commentators here, especially from continental Europe, don't fully understand the Westminster system, especially prorogation, which is a normal procedure in several Commonwealth jurisdictions.



Besides, nothing prevents the House of Commons from passing a motion of no confidence in the government next week, or the Commons and Lords from passing legislation before Parliament is prorogued requiring that the PM seek an extension of the October 31 deadline if no deal is reached until then. So, there is no "fascist coup" or "Reichstag fire" as mentioned here.


Personally I am glad Elizabeth II is still the British monarch in a moment like that. If Charles were king, I am afraid he would be tempted to play an activist role and act in a partisan way, which would then put the monarchy at risk.
  #338  
Old 08-29-2019, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
The Member of Parliament for Edinburgh SW has referred the matter to a legal team.

https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/st...69450232881152
I’m not a lawyer but the royal prerogative doesn’t have caveats as to what’s ‘improper’ or ‘proper’.

There’s no doubt the prerogative exists. Parliament has been prorogued countless times. I don’t think the courts even have standing. But that’s my non expert opinion.
  #339  
Old 08-29-2019, 03:31 PM
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^ I'm no Lawyer either, but that's my understanding, also..
  #340  
Old 08-29-2019, 04:31 PM
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A summary of today's proceedings before Lord Doherty in 𝘊𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘳𝘺 𝘷 𝘈𝘥𝘷𝘰𝘤𝘢𝘵𝘦 𝘎𝘦𝘯𝘦𝘳𝘢𝘭 𝘧𝘰𝘳 𝘚𝘤𝘰𝘵𝘭𝘢𝘯𝘥, prepared by a Session Cases reporter, can now be downloaded here:

https://twitter.com/SessionCases/sta...53465963028480

An extract:
A motion for interim orders was heard by Lord Doherty, a judge of the Court of Session, in Edinburgh in the petition brought by Joanna Cherry QC MP and others for judicial review of the UK Ministers' advice to HM Queen to prorogue the UK Parliament. (...)

The petitioners invoked the constitutional jurisdiction of the court, and argued that the advice given was unlawful, and that it was the court's duty to provide an effective remedy in order to ensure that the rule of law was maintained.
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