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  #261  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:03 AM
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Perhaps a vote of no confidence will be a solution? As I'm not British nor that informed on the workings of the government, I only know bits and pieces of what I've learned here. Wouldn't a vote of no confidence in Boris Johnson seek to resolve the problem without dragging HM, The Queen into it?

On one hand we have a 93 year old monarch that has had a stellar reign for 67 years. On the other hand, Parliament seems to go through Prime Minsters lately like toilet paper.

This conversation is not only interesting, but educational for me.
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  #262  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:09 AM
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The reality is the Queen has very little power, we are in a constitutional crisis now, but would have also been if the Queen had turned down the request from the PM.

The reality is, the only way we can get out of this now is for Parliament to take control. They could (and bear in mind the Speaker is on side as such) have a vote of no confidence, assuming Johnson lost that would leave 14 days to find a new government or the country face an election. As one constitutional expert said, the higher power in the land is really parliament, if given a choice of do what parliament vote for or what the PM asks her the Queen will do what parliament votes.
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  #263  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:12 AM
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The Queen approved the request, according to BBC.
  #264  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:20 AM
ACO ACO is online now
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NEW: The Queen has approved the order on Wednesday afternoon to prorogue Parliament. Order says it will be no earlier than September 9 and no later than September 12, until October 14.

https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/sta...16703679700993
  #265  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:20 AM
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HMQ has continued her 60 year 'habit' of abiding by the advice of her PM, and assented to the prorogation of her Parliament.

There has been a prorogation of Parliament pretty much every year before a Queen’s/King’s Speech since time immemorial.

But for some reason the media have never reported any previous prorogation as a “shutdown” or “suspension” of Parliament...

As for Mr Bercow, [the Speaker] this is not the 17th century and he’s no John Hampden. Under his speakership Brexit has been debated to death in the Commons to no avail.

The MP's that voted against a deal three times in Parliament, the Speaker and all those who have spent the last 3 years attempting to subvert the result of the 2016 referendum have caused this...
  #266  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:23 AM
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In reality there was no doubt she would.
It really is though shocking to see a government so readily throw HM under the bus in effect.

Can you just imagine the Queen's Speech on 14th October? The streets will be full of protestors who (given that the PM and his ministers will already be in Parliament) will direct their anger at the Queen as she makes her way and likewise MPs and Lord will I suspect make their voices heard during what should usually be a sedate and to be honest boring speech.

The government argues that they are simply adding 4 days extra to the October recess. However others have pointed out that during a recess select committees can still meet, ministers can be summoned to answer and all legislation waits until MPs return. When it is prorogued, which it will be for almost 5 weeks (the longest since 1940s), select committees do not sit and all legislation not already passed has to start again so in effect parliament has no power (which is great for a PM plagues by division in the House).
  #267  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACO View Post
NEW: The Queen has approved the order on Wednesday afternoon to prorogue Parliament. Order says it will be no earlier than September 9 and no later than September 12, until October 14.

https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/sta...16703679700993

As I said, a dearth of leadership all around.
  #268  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:42 AM
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I'm intrigued to see what the Palace does about the requests from the Leader of the Labour Party (HM's Official Opposition) and the Leader of the Liberal Democrats, amongst others for meetings with the Queen.

If they refuse such requests does it make it look like HM is refusing to listen to anyone else and a puppet of the government. Bear in mind that as a Privy Counsellors himself the Leader of the Labour party has a right of access to the Queen on matters of public affairs.

But equally if she agrees to meet them what can she say at the end of it? She can't really just change her mind because they have met her.
  #269  
Old 08-28-2019, 10:54 AM
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Whether Mr Corbyn , and the rest are prepared to traipse up to Aberdeenshire for what will [inevitably] be 'a wasted journey', remains to be seen..

As you say HMQ will not change her mind, she has taken the advice of her PM [as she is constitutionally bound to do], and that is already 'signed and sealed'.
  #270  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
Might be too late - I'm hearing the Balmoral meeting has happened & the order has been made.

Edited to add this might be an unfounded rumour so don't take it seriously - lots of stories whirling around people's phones today.
So it wasn't a rumour then...

As this thread is about the Queen's role in our politics, I'll refrain from adding my opinion of the Prime Minister & his actions as that would be off topic.
  #271  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:21 AM
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Unbelievable. Imagine the German Bundesprsident interrupting the workings of the Bundestag while Frau Merkel and the ministers continue? Imagine President Trump interrupting the workings of the House of Representatives or the Senate?

Mr Boris Johnson, the campaigner: "It is our Sovereign and duly democratically elected Parliament -and not Brussels- which should be in charge in the United Kingdom!"

PM Johnson: "Stop that Parliament interfering with the Government's business!"

It is very, very grave and only possible by lack of a written Constitution, making any twist, interpretation, sideway or nosedive possible. Beyond belief. My mouth litterally felt open. The Queen could not refuse by simply pointing to an oath to defend the Constitution, like in other European monarchies: there is no such a Constitution...
  #272  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:32 AM
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^ It's almost as if a government of Brexiteers, elected on a platform of implementing Brexit, is trying to deliver Brexit.

Shock horror.
  #273  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
The reality is the Queen has very little power, we are in a constitutional crisis now, but would have also been if the Queen had turned down the request from the PM.

The reality is, the only way we can get out of this now is for Parliament to take control. They could (and bear in mind the Speaker is on side as such) have a vote of no confidence, assuming Johnson lost that would leave 14 days to find a new government or the country face an election. As one constitutional expert said, the higher power in the land is really parliament, if given a choice of do what parliament vote for or what the PM asks her the Queen will do what parliament votes.
Yes, but it is up to Parliament to express its will to the Queen and not for the Queen to make political judgments on her own. The Queen acted perfectly within the framework of the constitution in this case.

If there is a vote of no confidence that succeeds , but Parliament cannot vote confidence in another government, there will be an election as that is the law of the land . In the latter case, the law also says it is the PM’s prerogative to recommend the election date to the Queen and nothing prevents Boris from picking November 1 for example or any date after October 31.

I don’t see any constitutional crisis really .
  #274  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Yes, but it is up to Parliament to express its will to the Queen and not for the Queen to make political judgments on her own. The Queen acted perfectly within the framework of the constitution in this case.

If there is a vote of no confidence that succeeds , but Parliament cannot vote confidence in another government, there will be an election as that is the law of the land . In the latter case, the law also says it is the PM’s prerogative to recommend the election date to the Queen and nothing prevents Boris from picking November 1 for example or any date after October 31.

I don’t see any constitutional crisis really .

By my understanding the Fixed Term Parliament Act also provides for the alternative of another Government being formed. As Mr Corbyn is disputing the Prime Minister potentially trying to delay an election beyond a no deal Brexit, to avoid this he might to install a temporary Government, of which a majority of the House is allowed to do under the Fied Term Parliament Act (to avoid that unwanted situation arising).
  #275  
Old 08-28-2019, 11:53 AM
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^ Those wishing to install a 'temporary Govt' are scrapping 'like ferrets in a sack' as to who might lead it, and command the necessary majority in the House..

All the PM needs to do [if he loses any vote of no confidence], is sit tight, neither resign, nor recommend another named politician to HMQ, then after the 14 days call an election [the date of which is his decision] for after the 31st of October, when Brexit will be a 'fait accompli'...

Job done...
  #276  
Old 08-28-2019, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
^ Those wishing to install a 'temporary Govt' are scrapping 'like ferrets in a sack' as to who might lead it, and command the necessary majority in the House..

All the PM needs to do [if he loses any vote of no confidence], is sit tight, refuse to resign, or recommend another named politician to HMQ, then after the 14 days call an election for after the 31st of October, when Brexit will be a 'fait accompli'...

Job done...

I am afraid I will never understand the eccentricities of British politics. Three consecutive hefty (and even historical) defeats on a core element of Government's policy did not make the Prime Minister considering to offer her mission to the head of state.


Not these three hefty defeats on the most core business of a Government (to deliver Brexit with a deal) did oust Theresa May, but just an internal party procedure removed Mrs May, to see the the gentleman representing Uxbridge & South Ruislip becoming Prime Minister. The very same gentleman who was Foreign Secretary in the very same Government which suffered these hefty defeats.



  #277  
Old 08-28-2019, 12:38 PM
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Here it is

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EDD-AsjW4AEBlwW.jpg
  #278  
Old 08-28-2019, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Yes, but it is up to Parliament to express its will to the Queen and not for the Queen to make political judgments on her own. The Queen acted perfectly within the framework of the constitution in this case.

If there is a vote of no confidence that succeeds , but Parliament cannot vote confidence in another government, there will be an election as that is the law of the land . In the latter case, the law also says it is the PMs prerogative to recommend the election date to the Queen and nothing prevents Boris from picking November 1 for example or any date after October 31.

I dont see any constitutional crisis really .
that was what i thought i said in my post, the Queen acts on the advise of Ministers. The only thing that can supersede that is Parliament voting through legislation.

The Fixed Term Parliament Act means that after a vote of no confidence there is 14 days for Parliament to come up with an alternative government, if no one can command a majority within that time then there is an automatic general election. I believe part of the thinking behind those stipulations were to avoid the Queen having to decide who she felt could command a majority to call them to form a government.

Whilst wyevale's politics are becoming clear let's stick to the law. If the current PM loses a vote of no confidence and somebody else can command a majority in the house then Johnson will be out.
  #279  
Old 08-28-2019, 01:40 PM
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It is really almost surreal that in a modern West-European country the legislative body is suspended by the executive body, with the latter just continuing to govern and making the most far-reaching basal choices without Parliament having a say.

Note that usually - on the Continent- when a Parliament is out, the Government is only caretaking and refrains from setting out new policies. Here the most core new politics for the future of the UK will be decided and Parliament is interrupted to have any influence.

I still can not believe that this happens in the so-called Mother of All Parliaments. Good heavens.
  #280  
Old 08-28-2019, 01:49 PM
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Hmm, I have difficulties in recognizing the role of the Queen here: Has she picked a side and gave the Brexiteers a chance?

I think that would be a good choice for the House of Windsor to pick the side of the majority of the voters...
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