Prince Philip's Former Greek Citizenship and Greek and Danish Titles

[Duke-of-Earl]

Like I said, it's all right there in black and white in Vickers' biography of Princess Andrew of Greece, Philip's mother. He interviewed Philip extensively for the book and had full access to the Royal Archives and the Mountbatten Family Archives.

I don't know why you have such a difficult time accepting this. Isn't it logical that Philip would renounce his Greek titles (which actually meant little to him considering the history of the throne in Greece) and convert from Greek Orthodoxy to marry the future Queen?

Ok its in the Vickers biography. does the the biography state it was a verbal declaration, a signed document , a royal decree.
All I'm trying to do is established in what manner Phillip renounced his Danish and Greek titles.
Why is there a lack of documentation?

 

[NGalitzine]

I believe Muhler has already told you how to contact the Danish court for their opinion on the Danish title. Below is the link to allow you to contact ex-King Constantine for his view on the Greek title.

The Greek Royal Family - Royal Greek Family

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I believe Muhler has already told you how to contact the Danish court for their opinion on the Danish title. Below is the link to allow you to contact ex-King Constantine for his view on the Greek title.

The Greek Royal Family - Royal Greek Family

Thank you and I'm not arguing. I just give evidence and links Philip is still a Prince of Greece and Denmark but no doubt I'm wrong . Members on this site have much more knowledge than I do.

This is just my opinion.

Thank you everyone for helping me out

 

[branchg]

I'll review the Vickers book when I have some time to see what they reference in terms of the archives or correspondence.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I'll review the Vickers book when I have some time to see what they reference in terms of the archives or correspondence.

Thank you branchg

 

[Artemisia]

Thank you and I'm not arguing. I just give evidence and links Philip is still a Prince of Greece and Denmark but no doubt I'm wrong . Members on this site have much more knowledge than I do.

This is just my opinion.

The DoE's insistence that there is no solid proof of the said renunciation got me digging a bit further and I have to concur that there is actually no proof of the said fact. Moreover, I came across a reference to an official document issued by British High Commission in Australia which seems to support the fact Prince Philip did not, in fact, renounce his rights. The information sheet on the Duke of Edinburgh was issued in 1954 to answer questions about Prince Philip from the public; all the information came directly from the Buckingham Palace and was thus approved by the Queen. It clearly stated that Prince Philip (along with Prince Charles) was in the Line of Succession to both the Greek and Danish Thrones at the time the sheet was issued (in 1954).


Now, personally I still believe that Prince Philip ceased to be a Prince of Greece and Denmark in March of 1947 for the following reasons:
- The notion has never been challenged by any of Prince Philip's children or male-line descendants.
- All people concerned - the British, Danish and Greek Royal Families - seem to believe so.
- The official website of the British Monarchy states so.


Nevertheless, the debate was quite educational.

 

[AnnEliza]

It's an interesting discussion. I have learned a lot by reading it.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The DoE's insistence that there is no solid proof of the said renunciation got me digging a bit further and I have to concur that there is actually no proof of the said fact. Moreover, I came across a reference to an official document issued by British High Commission in Australia which seems to support the fact Prince Philip did not, in fact, renounce his rights. The information sheet on the Duke of Edinburgh was issued in 1954 to answer questions about Prince Philip from the public; all the information came directly from the Buckingham Palace and was thus approved by the Queen. It clearly stated that Prince Philip (along with Prince Charles) was in the Line of Succession to both the Greek and Danish Thrones at the time the sheet was issued (in 1954).

I have a copy of that fact sheet as my mother was working at the High Commission at the time of their wedding and her friends gave her lots of stuff related to the royal visit in 1954 because they knew she was a real fan of the royals.

What the document says is that Philip and Charles were still in line to the Greek and Danish thrones.

It seems that Philip stopped using the titles in 1947 whether he ever formally renounced them or not.

Renouncing the titles also didn't mean he stopped being in line to the thrones.

I believe that he stopped using the titles, believing that he had to do so to continue his career in the RN as much as his desire to marry Elizabeth, but he never actually signed any documents to make the giving up of the titles official.

 

[Muhler]

That is incorrect.
Prince Phillip was never in line for the Danish throne as he was Prince of Denmark and not to Denmark. - Both titles are usually translated in English as Prince of Denmark.
Anyway, the change in the Law of Succession in 1953 made it very clear who could be in line for the throne.

The list of people who are currently in line for the Danish throne can be seen here:

1. Kronprins Frederik
2. Prins Christian
3. Prinsesse Isabella
4. Prins Vincent
5. Prinsesse Josephine
6. Prins Joachim
7. Prins Nikolai
8. Prins Felix
9. Prins Henrik
10. Prinsesse Athena (Prins Joachims og prinsesse Maries datter født 24. januar 2012)
11. Prinsesse Benedikte (dronning Margrethes søster)
12. Prinsesse Elisabeth (datter af arveprins Knud)

That list consists of twelve persons and no one else.

That is in line with ancient Danish practise.
Up until the introduction of Absolutism in the 1660's, Danish kings were elected, or more correctly acknowledged, and they had to travel through their kingdom and stand before assemblies of free men, who then acknowledged them as their king.
And the first thing a king did with his firstborn son was also to travel through the kingdom and present the son to assemblies of free men and have him acknowledged as the rightful heir.
Nowadays, the acknowledged heirs to the throne are listed in a protocol dating back to the 1770's. The purpose was to ensure exactly who would be the next in line for the throne and thus avoid a civil war or that DK would be incorporated into another kingdom.

And Duke-of-Earl
I have considerable more faith in the Danish court and Danish historians on this particular subject than a foreign Garter of Arms.
Also, let me point out that a verbal pledge is to this day binding here in DK - not least, I should imagine, to your sovereign.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

And Duke-of-Earl
I have considerable more faith in the Danish court and Danish historians on this particular subject than a foreign Garter of Arms.
Also, let me point out that a verbal pledge is to this day binding here in DK - not least, I should imagine, to your sovereign.

Since no documentation exists in Britain for Phillip renouncing his Greek and Danish titles, maybe you can provide me with the documents from the Danish court/government stating the Phillip is no longer a Prince of Greece and Denmark.
All I need is a single scrap of paper that says 'I Phillip renounce my titles' but at least here in Britain this paper does not exist.

 

[Kit]

The discussion is quite interesting. Has anyone ever tried to contact the Danish Court about Prince Philip's status? Would be quite interesting. I still think he is not or to be more specific no longer a Prince of Denmark and Greece but the topic fascinates me more and more.

 

[Muhler]

Since no documentation exists in Britain for Phillip renouncing his Greek and Danish titles, maybe you can provide me with the documents from the Danish court/government stating the Phillip is no longer a Prince of Greece and Denmark.
All I need is a single scrap of paper that says 'I Phillip renounce my titles' but at least here in Britain this paper does not exist.

Of course I can't personally produce such a paper!
Such a piece of paper will exist in Rigsarkivet in DK and the national archive in Greece.
Phillip couldn't just say to the British king back then: "I'll renounce the titles of Prince of Greece and Denmark, here's the paper - And oh, I didn't bother go through the proper chain of command and get a concent from the Kings of Denmark and Greece, but who cares?" - That's defecting and bordering on downright treason. - So any papers on that matter will hardly be archived in Britain.
As Kit says and I have suggested contact the Danish court and ask.

If we are to go to this level I can retort by saying that the British Garter of Arms can stand on the roof of Buckingham Palace and shout until he is blue in the head that Prince Phillip is Prince of Denmark and Greece, unless the Danish and Greek Monarchs agree, he is not.

Even The Garter of Arms can be in error.

You, or rather the Garter of Arms, could be right, however I now believe that is most unlikely.
On one hand we have a somewhat insecure statement from the Garter of Arms and on the other hand there is the DRF website, sites that specialise in the DRF, Danish historians who specialise in the DRF, Danish articles with portraits of Prince Phillip and in none of them have I been able to find any reference to Prince Phillip still being a member of the DRF. The references I have found so far all state that he renounced his title.

ADDED:
On another note: I'm far from certain it will be a simple matter to bestow the titles of Prince of Greece and Denmark to Phillip again.
DK is a pretty easy, eventhough quite a few eyebrows may be raised here.
Greece is an entirely different ballgame!
Who is going to bestow the title of Prince of Greece to Prince Phillip in the first place? QEII or the Greek citizen Konstantin?
And I bet the Greek government would like to know why and how the Prince Consort to the British Queen has suddenly become Prince of (the republic of) Greece and what the BRF is up to.

 

[katmen]

as a lawyer, i could state that in the legal things not only a written document, but also oral declaration and/or concludent act is sufficient,
the oral declaration could be done when British registrar during a passport issuing process asked Phillis whats is your name? and he replied Phillip Mountbatten
maybe simple but legally OK

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Honestly, what seems to be so hard to understand? As long as he isn't a recognized member of the Danish Royal Family, he isn't a Prince of Denmark (about Greece ... well, they don't have a monarchy anymore, so I don't know what applies to them, but I can imagine the same thing goes for them too) nor is he in the line of succession to the Danish throne. Your Garter of Arms clearly isn't too strong in his knowledge about the DRF.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I know Prince Phillip isn't in the line of succession , he was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark and there are no records of him renouncing his titles. What I'm trying to figure out is the Duke still a Prince of Greece and Denmark.
I don't care about lines of succession or whether he is an official member of the DRF. My only question is whether or not he renounced his titles as a Prince of Greece and Denmark

 

[Kit]

I would ask the Danish Court about Prince Philip's case. I am sure they can give you all the information you need.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I would ask the Danish Court about Prince Philip's case. I am sure they can give you all the information you need.

I've been in contact by phone with the Danish Embassy here in Canada and got some good information and the gentleman said he will email the relevant information.

 

[NGalitzine]

Since you seem rather keen on loading the BRF up with foreign titles, perhaps you should check into the renunciation of German titles in 1917. Other than an expression of the kings wish what documentation was used to renounce these titles? Since the was was still on how do we know the renunciation was accepted by the Germans? Perhaps the Queen is still secretly Duchess of Saxony and princess of Saxe Coburg Gotha. Perhaps Countess Mountbatten and Lady Pamela are secretly still Princesses of Battenberg and Lord milford Haven and his brother Princes of Battenberg. Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

You point to the Act of 1917 which dealt with foreigners with British titles(Philip was born a British citizen and a Prince of Greece and Denmark)
Other than people saying I'm wrong, I don't see you providing any links or info that says Philip renounced his titles.

- - - - -
One interesting thing the gentleman told me was because Philip was born a Prince of Denmark and is an agnatic descendant of Christian IX, he can't think of anything in Danish law that would prevent Phillip from being correctly styled a Prince of Grecce and Denmark.

Admittedly he said he isn't an expert in this field but he took my email and will have someone from the Danish Court contact me and answer my question.

He thought British law would be a bigger impediment but because Philip was born a British citizen, he was not a foreign Prince he should be entitled to use the title he was born with

I can't wait for the response from the Danish Court. I will post their reply here for everyone to read.

 

[branchg]

I think we're getting lost in the trees here. The fact of the matter is Philip voluntarily relinquished his Greek and Danish title in order to make himself more acceptable to marry the future Queen. In line with that, he took the name of Philip Mountbatten when he naturalized, converted to the Anglican faith and renounced his right of succession to the Greek throne.

Whether there is a piece of paper with his signature on it is irrelevant. It's a matter of historical record he did all of those things due to opposition from the Court and some members of the Government to Elizabeth marrying a foreigner.

 

[Muhler]

Excellent. We will look forward to the reply.

I've been asking questions about when and how the renounciation took place and if there are any documents from a historian.

I hope to get a reply.

 

[NGalitzine]

You point to the Act of 1917 which dealt with foreigners with British titles(Philip was born a British citizen and a Prince of Greece and Denmark )

Other than people saying I'm wrong, I don't see you providing any links or info that says Philip renounced his titles.

Actually all the people I referenced were British (Teck/Cambridge, Battenberg/Mountbatten) and in 1917 were considered as members of the BRF. It was GVs wish that they give up their German titles and he gave them British peerages instead. I was teasing you, but really what documentation is there that they did in fact each formally renounce these titles or that said renunciation was accepted by the German heads of houses that Britain was at war with? Perhaps they really still are Princes of Saxe Coburg and Princesses of Battenberg. I was giving you a whole new avenue to research in your desire to add more titles to the BRF. lol.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I think we're getting lost in the trees here. The fact of the matter is Philip voluntarily relinquished his Greek and Danish title in order to make himself more acceptable to marry the future Queen. In line with that, he took the name of Philip Mountbatten when he naturalized, converted to the Anglican faith and renounced his right of succession to the Greek throne.

Whether there is a piece of paper with his signature on it is irrelevant. It's a matter of historical record he did all of those things due to opposition from the Court and some members of the Government to Elizabeth marrying a foreigner.

The fact of the matter is Philip voluntarily relinquished his Greek and Danish title ---- But with all due respect, why is this a fact and just not your personal opinion?

I have provided links from Garter King of Arms, various government departments stating that HRH the Duke of Edinburgh remained a Prince of Greece and Denmark in 1947

Can someone provide me with evidence that all the opinions of Garter and others are wrong?

Even the gentleman at the embassy seems to think Phillip is legally a Prince of Denmark because of his decent from Christian IX

The main thing I have gong for me is there is zero evidence he renounced his titles.

Even Artemisia, who did some research on it admits there is no evidence of renunciation although her personal opinion is he did renounce.

 

[NGalitzine]

The biography of Princess Alice, Philips mother by Hugo Vickers was written with the full cooperation of Prince Philip and with access to Philips private archives and the Broadland archives, and with cooperation from Philip's staff and relatives. Philp also read a draft of the book and answered more questions after his review.
P323..."in the meantime, Philip finally renounced his rights to the Greek throne on 28 February 1947 and became a British subject. At his own request he ceased to be HRH Prince Philip of Greece and became Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, RN."

It certainly seems as if Philip, as far as he in concerned, ceased to be a foreign prince or have foreign titles as of 28 February 1947. Seems rather pointless to want to foist titles on him which he believes he voluntarily gave up and does not claim for himself or his heirs.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Thank you for this quote NGalitzine. If Philip himself says he renounced his titles of Greece and Denmark than I stand corrected.

I would still like to know how he went about renouncing his titles. It appears to be verbal because there is no written record of it, that much is for certain.

Garter must be of the opinion when he stated in 1947 that HRH the Duke of Edinburgh was a naturalized Prince of Greece and Denmark, that the verbal declaration didn't have the legal authority required

Its entirely possible he verbally renounced his titles but legally remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark.

Just to be clear, I'm not the one 'hoisting' titles on Philip. I was merely quoting senior government officials and the Chief Herald of England and Wales who believe he is a Prince of Greece and Denmark.

 

[NGalitzine]

I suppose all things are possible. From the biography it is clear that everything was coordinated by Louis Mountbatten and discussions between GVI of UK and GII of Greece and involved concerns about the recently restored Greek monarchy and the impact a renunciation so soon after the restoration might have. In the end everything was agreed to in order for Philip to become Lt Philip Mountbatten, a British citizen and much more acceptable as fiance to Princess Elizabeth than an impoverished prince from the recently restored Greek royal family.

 

[snowflower]

I have read the posts above and I'll try now to give my opinion on the matter. Before everything else I must stress something: I have read in the past the articles of the Hellenic Constitutions from the times of Otto's reign which dealt with the royals and they are perhaps the most imcomplete constitutions ever in these matters - they don't even clarify the line of succesion, whether it is semi salic or male primogeniture. Also , I don't remember to have ever read one single article in any Hellenic Constitution that stated any reagulation about who is a and Prince/Princess of Greece , any criteria of the matters of spouse or even that members of the family need permission to marry from the Head of the House in order to marry and retain their succession rights and titles- AFAIK there has only been one legal decision about this, regarding the marriage of King Alexander and Aspasia Manos, where the court decide that the marriage between them was perfectly legal , but when it came to titles and the line of succesion, the one who should decide about titles and the succesion was the King, and it has been like that ever since, with the King alwas acting as he pleased .



In three cases I know, titles did exist even without any or with questionable succesion rights
a) Alexandra, the daughter of King Alexander and Aspasia who was never eligible for the Throne but was a Princess
b) Peter ,son of Prince George and Marie Bonaparte, whom the whole Greek Dynasty practically renounced after his marriage to a Russian commoner, but was still referred as a Prince ,inside and outside the country
c) Michael , who renounced his succesion rights before marrying but is still a Prince, and the lasrt time I checked was on the website of the GRF (his daughter however are not)
In the case of Philip I honestly don't know what happened. I have seen a scanned paper on the Net about this matter and I also posted it here somewhere.What I understand though is that King George II was able to decide on the matter, without any Greek laws to place boundaries, not even stating what it would take to make the renounciation valid. And that following precedent, perhaps Philip could continue to use his titles if he wished (I don't know if renouncing his nationality plays a part though)
BTW, Philip and his descendants are definately not eligible to succeed on the Greek throne regardless on any valid or invalid renounciations, because they don't fill 2 of the 3 constitutional conditions : a) Having Greek nationality and b) being Member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

PS At the time of the marriage between Philip and Elizabeth, the Greek royals asked Spyridon Markezinis to investigate all the legal aspects of the matter. Markezinis wrote many books about the history of Greece , with reference on the Greek royals so perhaps he also wrote something on the matter. Ill try to check it during the holidays if there's anything interesting thers

EDIT: Here is the scanned paper I reffered to , I see it mentions nothing about titles http://www.styx.gr/photos/eggrafoadeias.gif

 

[branchg]

Even if Philip "legally" remained a Prince of Greece & Denmark, it is irrelevant since he relinquished it to become a British subject with commoner status. The King then created him a Royal Duke and Elizabeth granted him the status of Prince.

Philip is certainly not a person to stand on ceremony and he didn't care about his Greek/Danish titles anyway.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

That scan is interesting because why would Philip who renounced his princely titles need permission from the Greek King to serve in the RN?

I notice the King refers to him as Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark

I am more convinced than ever that although he verbally 'renounced' his titles that has no legal standing and he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark even today

 

[snowflower]

note the date though: that document is from 1944 as far I can see before any renounciaton and was probably written when the future wedding has just been agreed upon. He definately needed his cousin's permission back then for eveything he decided. he was still a member of the GRF