The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #301  
Old 04-11-2021, 04:26 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
I doubt it especially if the older heir had married and had children. When Prince Albert married Victoria, he did not have to give up succession to the Saxe-Coburg duchy and eventually one of Albert and Victoria's sons inherited the duchy. Also British royals who married into foreign royal houses did not lose their succession rights. I know that the Norwegian royals are in the line of succession for the British throne, but now I am wondering if the same is true of the Swedish and Danish royals.

I think it was pretty unusual for Philip to give up his rights - Queen Anne was always called princess Anne of Denmark before she became queen, due to her marriage to prince George of Denmark. Her husband stayed the "prince of Denmark" through the reigns of Charles II. and his father-in-law James II/VII., but was naturalized by William III. and created Duke of Cumberland in 1689. While from then on, his wife used his ducal title, she still held and used the title "princess of Denmark" as well.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 04-11-2021, 06:00 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 11,202
It must have been the mood of the day, that Philip von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, known as HRH Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark (as they did not use a surname for Greek royals) had to adapt his mother's anglicized surname to become Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten indeed. To appear as British as possible.

His predecessors kept their titles until marriage: His Serene Highness Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (consort of Victoria), His Serene Highness Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (consort of Charlotte), His Royal Highness Prince Georg of Denmark (consort of Anne), His Highness The Prince of Orange (consort of Mary II), etc.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #303  
Old 04-11-2021, 06:36 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Atika, Greece
Posts: 253
Prince Philip of Edinburgh was not Heir to the Greek throne, as I am reading. Prince Philip was in fifth position in the Greek succession. 1 Crown Prince Pavlos, 2.' Prince George of Greece, 3. ' Prince Peter (son of George), 4 - Prince Andrew, father of Fhilip and 5. Prince Philip.
The Greek princes have to serve in the Greek army, when Philip went to the British army he assumed British nationality to access the army, for this he had to assume the surname of his mother, Battenberg, and renounce his nationality and therefore to their titles. Philip of Edinburgh resigned at that time the title of prince of Greece and Denmark. He did not serve in the Greek Army, nor to King George II of Greece.
Philip did not put himself in the service of King George II, he put himself in the service of King George V, who was the Head of another state. In Greece the Greek nationality was lost to serve the interests of another state.
Having a monarchy in Greece, a prince of Greece has to serve in the Greek army, and put himself at the service of the King of Greece. But a Greek Prince who renounces Greek nationality, and places himself at the service of another country ..
I try to explain that Prince Philip lost his title of Greece and Denmark when he assumed the British passport, the Battenberg as his first surname, he entered the British Army ... At that time he renounced the title of Prince of Greece and Denmark.
He resigned to his titles when he married with Princess Elizabeth II, I believe that this is totally false.
Reply With Quote
  #304  
Old 04-11-2021, 06:36 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It must have been the mood of the day, that Philip von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, known as HRH Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark (as they did not use a surname for Greek royals) had to adapt his mother's anglicized surname to become Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten indeed. To appear as British as possible.

His predecessors kept their titles until marriage: His Serene Highness Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (consort of Victoria), His Serene Highness Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (consort of Charlotte), His Royal Highness Prince Georg of Denmark (consort of Anne), His Highness The Prince of Orange (consort of Mary II), etc.
Somewhat understandable in the immediate wake of WWII that he should be presented as British and committed to Britain as possible, just as Prince Louis of Battenberg became Louis Mountbatten during WWI.

Philip Mountbatten RN is a member of the CofE and fought for the allied cause with distinction. Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark (Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg) is a foreign prince with Nazi connections, why can't Princess Elizabeth pick some British aristocrat?

Not saying it was right but it was understandable.
Reply With Quote
  #305  
Old 04-11-2021, 07:15 AM
fandesacs2003's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Athens, Angola
Posts: 4,897
The unclear issue is the following.
At 1922, Prince Andreas, has been convicted to death for high treason and left the country ashamed.
In 1935 royalty was established back in Greece, Pcs Andreas I think never returned back. Princess Alice returned and spent almost 3 decades in Greece
Pcs Phillippos did only a few occasional trips
Was his father Whitelisted from his trial? Was his honor re-established back?
I know that for the other convicted and executed, the famous trial of the 6, they are trying to redo the trial. What about prince Andreas?
Considering that from 1936 till 1967 Greece was a kingdom, has any action be taken in favor of Prince Andreas honor?
Reply to this could clarify many of actions and feelings of DoE towards Greece
Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old 04-11-2021, 07:44 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 13,218
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolopoulus View Post
Prince Philip of Edinburgh was not Heir to the Greek throne, as I am reading. Prince Philip was in fifth position in the Greek succession. 1 Crown Prince Pavlos, 2.' Prince George of Greece, 3. ' Prince Peter (son of George), 4 - Prince Andrew, father of Fhilip and 5. Prince Philip.
The Greek princes have to serve in the Greek army, when Philip went to the British army he assumed British nationality to access the army, for this he had to assume the surname of his mother, Battenberg, and renounce his nationality and therefore to their titles. Philip of Edinburgh resigned at that time the title of prince of Greece and Denmark. He did not serve in the Greek Army, nor to King George II of Greece.
Philip did not put himself in the service of King George II, he put himself in the service of King George V, who was the Head of another state. In Greece the Greek nationality was lost to serve the interests of another state.
Having a monarchy in Greece, a prince of Greece has to serve in the Greek army, and put himself at the service of the King of Greece. But a Greek Prince who renounces Greek nationality, and places himself at the service of another country ..
I try to explain that Prince Philip lost his title of Greece and Denmark when he assumed the British passport, the Battenberg as his first surname, he entered the British Army ... At that time he renounced the title of Prince of Greece and Denmark.
He resigned to his titles when he married with Princess Elizabeth II, I believe that this is totally false.
Philip didn't serve in the British army but the navy.

He renounced his Greek and Danish nationality in 1947 when he took out British citizenship - which had to be gazetted and it was - in 1947 and not before. He went through the paperwork in 1947 with the approval of King George II of Greece.
Reply With Quote
  #307  
Old 04-11-2021, 07:45 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,240
I am not familiar with the laws of succession to the Greek throne, but Wikipedia says that, prior to 1952, all descendants of George I were in the line of succession according to male preference primogeniture. Does that mean Philip was once in the line of succession in Greece? I imagine he may have been disqualified though when he joined the Church of England in 1947.


On the other hand, as an agnatic descendant of Christian IX, prior to 1953, Philip was also theoretically in the line of succession to the Danish throne. Was he disqualified, however, for being Greek Orthodox?
Reply With Quote
  #308  
Old 04-11-2021, 08:04 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post


On the other hand, as an agnatic descendant of Christian IX, prior to 1953, Philip was also theoretically in the line of succession to the Danish throne. Was he disqualified, however, for being Greek Orthodox?

I think all male line descendants of pricne Vilhelm of Denmark aka King Georg I. of the Hellenes where in the danish lie of succession until 1953. And all of them have been baptized greek-orthodox.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #309  
Old 04-11-2021, 08:34 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,803
I seem to recall that there was a law in Britain (also from 1917?) that foreign Royal titles did not count when not accepted by the British monarch. I think Marina of Greece and Denmark was such a case when she became a British subject on her marriage. So this is what happened to Philip, too, I believe.
Reply With Quote
  #310  
Old 04-11-2021, 08:52 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I am not familiar with the laws of succession to the Greek throne, but Wikipedia says that, prior to 1952, all descendants of George I were in the line of succession according to male preference primogeniture. Does that mean Philip was once in the line of succession in Greece? I imagine he may have been disqualified though when he joined the Church of England in 1947.


On the other hand, as an agnatic descendant of Christian IX, prior to 1953, Philip was also theoretically in the line of succession to the Danish throne. Was he disqualified, however, for being Greek Orthodox?

I'm sure I read somewhere recently that Philip was 5th in line for the Greek throne when he was born ... but that doesn't sound right, because Constantine I had two living sons, then there were two other brothers ahead of Andrew. Having said which, I'm not 100% sure who was and wasn't excluded when because of all the abdications and reinstations! But Philip was certainly in line, and fairly close.
Reply With Quote
  #311  
Old 04-11-2021, 09:03 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I think all male line descendants of pricne Vilhelm of Denmark aka King Georg I. of the Hellenes where in the danish lie of succession until 1953. And all of them have been baptized greek-orthodox.

Why aren't Queen Anne-Marie and her children in the Danish line of succession today then? I was under the impression that Anne-Marie had to renounce her sucession rights when she became Greek Orthodox, so I thought the same would have applied before to the descendants of King Georg I, but I am confused now.


The Danish constitution, unlike the Swedish Act of Succession, doesn't actually impose any explicit religious tests on successors to the throne, but the monarch is explictly required to be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Reply With Quote
  #312  
Old 04-11-2021, 09:50 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,970
Quote:
Originally Posted by AC21091968 View Post
I'm not quite sure if this is in the right thread.

The Mail on Sunday has apparently unearthed Prince Philip's birth certificate handwritten and issued by a priest named Spiriodon Tryfonas. It was written Katharevousa Greek. Prince Philip's birth certificate has been "lying buried" "in a municipal archive" located in an old British Army barracks". This old British Army barracks "sits within the imposing Venetian fortress overlooking Corfu's Old Town". Philip was born in Mon Repos, Corfu.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2021/04...8086038426.jpg

The rough translation of Prince Philip's birth certificate in the Mail on Sunday article (Unsure about the accuracy and reliability):

Quote:
In Corfu, on October 24 of the year 1921, I, the undersigned vicar of the Church of Our Christ the Saviour, which is located in the grounds of the Royal Estate Mon Repos, declare that His Royal Highness Prince Andreas (Andrew) of Greece, aged 39, son of our late King George I, born in Athens and residing in Corfu, appeared before me.

He presented to me a newborn male infant, and stated that he was born on Friday May 28 1921 at 10am in his residence to Her Royal Princess Aliki (Alice), aged 36, daughter of Louis, Prince of Battenberg, born in Windsor Castle.

During his baptism the newborn was given the name Philippos (Philip) by his godparents, namely Her Royal Majesty Queen Mother Olga, represented by Her Highness Princess Olga, daughter of His Royal Highness Prince Nikolaos of Greece, and the Municipality of the Corfiates, represented unanimously by Mayor Mr Alexandros S. Kokotos, and Mr Stylianos I. Maniarizis, president of the Municipal Council.

The hereby act of registration was compiled in presence of the witness, Theodoros Chrysovitsianos, son of Nikolaos, aged 45, doctor, born in Corfu, and Konstantinos Alamanos, son of Pericles, aged 39, lawyer, born in Corfu, and both municipal councils.

The act of registration is legally signed by me, the appeared, and the witnesses.
Prince Philip's birth certificate is unearthed after lying buried for 99 years in an archive close to the Greek villa where he was born
  • Document was written by hand in Katharevousa Greek, a purist version of modern Greek, by priest named Spiriodon Tryfonas on island of Corfu
  • Found in municipal archive housed in old British Army barracks that sits within the imposing Venetian fortress overlooking Corfu's Old Town
  • Details how Prince Andrew of Greece, Philip's father, presented baby boy to priest, which he said had been born at 10am on May 28, 1921
  • Philip was actually born on June 10, 1921 but experts say his birth was registered using old Julian calendar, still being used in Greece in early 20th Century


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...o=taboola_feed


Thank you very much for posting this interesting document and its translation.

Note that the family members are referred to as "of Greece", rather than "of Greece and Denmark". I believe the latter form was used only outside of Greece.
Reply With Quote
  #313  
Old 04-11-2021, 09:53 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Why aren't Queen Anne-Marie and her children in the Danish line of succession today then? I was under the impression that Anne-Marie had to renounce her sucession rights when she became Greek Orthodox, so I thought the same would have applied before to the descendants of King Georg I, but I am confused now.


The Danish constitution, unlike the Swedish Act of Succession, doesn't actually impose any explicit religious tests on successors to the throne, but the monarch is explictly required to be a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Because in 1953 the line of succession was limited to the descendantsof King Christian X. so the greeks fell out. And as Anne-Marie was marrying a foreign head of State it was probably thought her decendants should have no succession rights in Denmark.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #314  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:07 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Atika, Greece
Posts: 253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Philip didn't serve in the British army but the navy.

He renounced his Greek and Danish nationality in 1947 when he took out British citizenship - which had to be gazetted and it was - in 1947 and not before. He went through the paperwork in 1947 with the approval of King George II of Greece.
Sorry for the mistake, butthe english is not my first idiom. I don't usually use English. I have used Army in a broader definition, but I think that does not change my argument.

Well, he was in the British navy, therefore in the service of the King of Great Britain and the interests of another state .

I imagine that after the First World War, in the Britain navy would require British nationality to gain access to it. These harsh laws were imposed in many countries after the First World War.

But I'm going to talk to you about Greece.

The version that Philip renounced his title of prince of Greece and Denmark, and assumed his British citizenship in 1947, I am sorry but that does not fit me in the history of Greece or in Greek law.

When Philip was 18 years old, Greece had a monarchy, and military service was compulsory for Greeks.
But in addition, in 1940 Greece was threatened by Italy, Italy gave Greece an ultimatum , Greece said no to invasion. The king called the people to war, all Greeks were called to defend the homeland, over 18 years old.... Except for Philip? Who was in the British navy. This does not add up.
If being called to war he did not come to defend the country.

I am only trying to explain him that he had to lose the title of Prince of Greece or Denmark, or give it up, when he entered the British navy.
Reply With Quote
  #315  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:34 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,477
He didn't renounce his title and Greek nationality, as far as I know until 1947. he served in the British Navy all through the war....
Reply With Quote
  #316  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:48 AM
Prinsara's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: A place to grow, Canada
Posts: 1,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolopoulus View Post
Sorry for the mistake, butthe english is not my first idiom. I don't usually use English. I have used Army in a broader definition, but I think that does not change my argument.

Well, he was in the British navy, therefore in the service of the King of Great Britain and the interests of another state .

I imagine that after the First World War, in the Britain navy would require British nationality to gain access to it. These harsh laws were imposed in many countries after the First World War.

But I'm going to talk to you about Greece.

The version that Philip renounced his title of prince of Greece and Denmark, and assumed his British citizenship in 1947, I am sorry but that does not fit me in the history of Greece or in Greek law.

When Philip was 18 years old, Greece had a monarchy, and military service was compulsory for Greeks.
But in addition, in 1940 Greece was threatened by Italy, Italy gave Greece an ultimatum , Greece said no to invasion. The king called the people to war, all Greeks were called to defend the homeland, over 18 years old.... Except for Philip? Who was in the British navy. This does not add up.
If being called to war he did not come to defend the country.

I am only trying to explain him that he had to lose the title of Prince of Greece or Denmark, or give it up, when he entered the British navy.
It's very simple. Philip had thought of returning to Greece with his mother both before and I think slightly after the war broke out, but his relative George II asked him specifically to stay in the British navy. (Even so, Alice was apparently quite surprised when she later learned he wasn't on a Greek ship.)

If you are a Greek citizen-subject and especially a prince, you fulfill your service by doing whatever the king asks you to do. No renunciation required.
Reply With Quote
  #317  
Old 04-11-2021, 11:51 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,477
he was training for the Navy in 1939, and presumably was thinking of making the British navy his career.... and he didn't give up his nationality til he was about to marry P Elizabeth....
Reply With Quote
  #318  
Old 04-11-2021, 12:14 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,109
Interestingly, as former Canadian prime minister Jean Chrétien noted below, the Duke of Edinburgh did not think of himself as an Englishman:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/cont...ilip-1.5381102
The Prince was born a Greek and retained his status of outsider, even though he lived the majority of his life in the bosom of the British royal family. A fascinating man indeed, whose contribution to Great Britain and the Commonwealth will be studied for years to come.
Reply With Quote
  #319  
Old 04-11-2021, 12:58 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 6,661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolopoulus View Post
Sorry for the mistake, butthe english is not my first idiom. I don't usually use English. I have used Army in a broader definition, but I think that does not change my argument.

Well, he was in the British navy, therefore in the service of the King of Great Britain and the interests of another state .

I imagine that after the First World War, in the Britain navy would require British nationality to gain access to it. These harsh laws were imposed in many countries after the First World War.

But I'm going to talk to you about Greece.

The version that Philip renounced his title of prince of Greece and Denmark, and assumed his British citizenship in 1947, I am sorry but that does not fit me in the history of Greece or in Greek law.

When Philip was 18 years old, Greece had a monarchy, and military service was compulsory for Greeks.
But in addition, in 1940 Greece was threatened by Italy, Italy gave Greece an ultimatum , Greece said no to invasion. The king called the people to war, all Greeks were called to defend the homeland, over 18 years old.... Except for Philip? Who was in the British navy. This does not add up.
If being called to war he did not come to defend the country.

I am only trying to explain him that he had to lose the title of Prince of Greece or Denmark, or give it up, when he entered the British navy.
Interesting perspective. Can you give evidence for this interpretation? I do understand somewhat where you are coming from but was Philip ever invited back to Greece after his family went into exile? It would be rather unlikely to expect someone who was forced into exile with his family (and whose father was put on military trial and banished for life) to suddenly be expected to come and serve the country in a war. It seems far more likely that they were happy to see the back of him and didn't want him to return.

So, the question is whether Philip was still a Greek citizen or had only Danish citizenship as apparently some sources claim that the family had lost their Greek citizenship upon exile. However, in that case, it wouldn't make sense for princess Alice to return to Greek once banishment was quashed.

I haven't seen anyone else claim that he also lost his style and title. It seemed the Head of the Greek family still recognized it... If not, any paperwork to the contrary would be false and fabricated. I don't think there is sufficient evidence for that claim - and it would be a rather harsh accusation against both Philip and the British royal family that they fabricated something that had no legal value whatsoever...
Reply With Quote
  #320  
Old 04-11-2021, 02:01 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerry View Post
Interestingly, as former Canadian prime minister Jean Chrétien noted below, the Duke of Edinburgh did not think of himself as an Englishman:
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/cont...ilip-1.5381102
The Prince was born a Greek and retained his status of outsider, even though he lived the majority of his life in the bosom of the British royal family. A fascinating man indeed, whose contribution to Great Britain and the Commonwealth will be studied for years to come.
Jean Chrétien seems to be very close to The Queen. He was awarded the Order of Merit, which is now, I think, the highest non-military royal decoration available to a Canadian citizen (ranking above Companion of the Order of Canada).
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Royal Roles & Titles for the Spouses of Victoria, Carl Philip & Madeleine Huddo Royal House of Sweden 79 03-18-2021 06:12 PM
Maria Teresa's Citizenship bad_barbarella Grand Duke Henri and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa 24 06-13-2015 02:42 PM
Favourite Danish-Greek Baby Name? carlota Royal Chit Chat 50 03-23-2014 09:16 PM
Current and Former Danish Royal Residences JessRulz Danish Royal Residences 0 11-10-2008 04:49 AM




Popular Tags
american archie mountbatten-windsor asia asian british british royal family buckingham palace camilla camilla's family camilla parker-bowles camilla parker bowles carolin china china chinese ming dynasty asia asian emperor royalty qing chinese clarence house commonwealth countries coronation crown jewels daisy doge of venice dresses duchess of sussex duke of sussex edward vii family tree genetics george vi gradenigo harry and meghan hello! highgrove history hochberg hypothetical monarchs japan japanese imperial family japan history jewellery kensington palace king edward vii king juan carlos książ castle liechtenstein lili mountbatten-windsor line of succession list of rulers meghan markle monarchists monarchy mongolia names plantinum jubilee pless politics portugal prince harry queen elizabeth ii queen victoria royal ancestry solomon j solomon spanish royal family st edward sussex suthida thai royal family unfinished portrait united states united states of america welsh


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×