Death of HRH the Duke of Edinburgh: 9 April 2021


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The funeral announcement was also updated with the guestlist. I notice the BBC changed the forms of address for some of the guests, for example changing Mrs. Mike Tindall to Zara Tindall.

https://www.royal.uk/funeral-duke-edinburgh-0


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At #PrincePhilip’s specific request, at the end of the funeral service @RoyalMarines buglers will sound “Action Stations”, the announcement made on a Naval warship that all those serving on board should go to their battle stations


Together with the Land Rover that HRH himself helped to design, I find these personal touches amazingly moving.
 
There is major point raised by this discussion.
This point seems to be still raised for royals, but not anymore for commun people.

I explain myself. There are two major theories still applied. Jus soli and jus sanguinis. What could define your ethnicity and nationality? Where are you born and live or what is the origin of your family? And if the second applies how far behind can you go?
What about the Americans and Australian? Are they still only English or French or whatever was the homeland of the first who arrived there? I think the have the right to be just American or Australians with different origins.
Now for royals. DoE was a mixture. Yes the Danish had a German origin, nevertheless I doubt if the actual DRF would be happy to be called still German. Same for the Belgian RF.
Prince Philip comes from queen Olga, so Russian, with German mixture also.
Only a genetiste and genealogist could write down and find the percentage if his blood per origin. But the question is, how far behind you can go. All royal families were taking foreign brides, and are a huge mixture, but there is a stage the blood definition stops and the ground raised and feelings are predominant.
Can you say that BRF are still German, and Swedish still French?
Considering the special conditions he had in his life, I doubt DoE that he migh feel Greek and of course not German. If he had to feel one country, he was feeling British. Of course this is my only opinion.
I'm saying that nationality and ethnicity isn't as simple as you suggest it is. Nationality isn't set in stone and the concept of nationality is a fairly modern one that can't be imposed on societies pre-dating the creation of this concept. In many European countries it's not uncommon for families to change nationality and ethnicity within generations and then back again. Just because someone came from Germany 600 years ago doesn't make their descendants German today. Even if they mostly married other Germans this doesn't necessarily make their descendants German today if they chose not to be.
Philip's ancestors in the male line have ruled in Scandinavia for 600 years and before that in the female line for 600 more years and most of them (there are some very poignant exceptions) considered themselves Scandinavian in spite of what languages they spoke (Norse, Danish, German, French - most of them grew up speaking several like Philip himself did) and where their mothers were born.
Is Philip of predominantly German descent? Yes.
Does this automatically make him German? No.
 
Can someone explain what does Forfar mean?
It is written on the procession announcement for the funeral, before the name of Duc of York and after the Countess of Wessex
Thanks
 
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Others have already mentioned him, but I am also very surprised at the absence of Prince Michael and his wife, and also the Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester. They have been both royal and family to Phillip for many decades, whereas the presence of the husbands of Phillip's 3 eldest granddaughters instead of them is very surprising.
 
The Mods should start a new thread Funerals of the Duke of Edinburgh. Prince and Princess Michael , de Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent are not on the list of 30.
 
Is Philip of predominantly German descent? Yes.
Does this automatically make him German? No.

That's the point. I agree with you.

But people often make mistakes regarding blood and citizenship tending to unite it, even if it's basically not true. Being Prince of Greece doesn't mean he is of Greek blood, meaning of Greek ancestry or being Grand Duke of Russia doesn't mean that he is of Russian blood...no matter how Russian he felt or how long his family lived in Russia.

My country is multinational and because of that citizenship and nationality are different things as we all can have same citizenship, but with different nationalities, which is connected with ethnicity. This is the way ethnic minorities can keep their tradition and the law gives them special rights in order to allow them to keep their identity forever. (Like the reserved number of seats in the Parliament despite the electoral result or the right to learn in their own language in state schools etc.)

Anyway, glad we solved this out and let's get back to the topic. ;)
 
There is major point raised by this discussion.
This point seems to be still raised for royals, but not anymore for commun people.

I explain myself. There are two major theories still applied. Jus soli and jus sanguinis. What could define your ethnicity and nationality? Where are you born and live or what is the origin of your family? And if the second applies how far behind can you go?
What about the Americans and Australian? Are they still only English or French or whatever was the homeland of the first who arrived there? I think the have the right to be just American or Australians with different origins.
Now for royals. DoE was a mixture. Yes the Danish had a German origin, nevertheless I doubt if the actual DRF would be happy to be called still German. Same for the Belgian RF.
Prince Philip comes from queen Olga, so Russian, with German mixture also.
Only a genetiste and genealogist could write down and find the percentage if his blood per origin. But the question is, how far behind you can go. All royal families were taking foreign brides, and are a huge mixture, but there is a stage the blood definition stops and the ground raised and feelings are predominant.
Can you say that BRF are still German, and Swedish still French?
Considering the special conditions he had in his life, I doubt DoE that he migh feel Greek and of course not German. If he had to feel one country, he was feeling British. Of course this is my only opinion.

It can be a complicated and emotional topic. And especially for someone like Philip having blood family all over Europe.

Charles said recently that he feels a special connection with Greece because his father was born there, not because his father was Greek for example.

The BRF has done all they can to reign as British regardless of their genetic make up and lines of descent. So have the Bernadottes and even the Romanian Royal family in recent years.

I don't think it's entirely fair to say "he's German and that's the end of it, no matter where his ancestors actually lived, for how long or what he felt about it." I mean most people who have Norman ancestry in the UK don't consider themselves French who just happen to be living here for 1000 years.

Others have already mentioned him, but I am also very surprised at the absence of Prince Michael and his wife, and also the Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester. They have been both royal and family to Phillip for many decades, whereas the presence of the husbands of Phillip's 3 eldest granddaughters instead of them is very surprising.

The Duchesses may both have been advised not to attend due to health reasons as may Prince Michael.

That said, I don't think it entirely strange that The Queen may have wanted her grandchildren who are married and who's spouses are available to be there to support them so that not everyone is sitting alone.
 
I think Princess Alexandra's always been quite close to both the Queen and Prince Philip, and I assume they asked the Duke of Gloucester over Prince Michael so that the Gloucesters weren't left out completely.

I'm very surprised indeed about Prince Michael as he was a pageboy at the Queen's wedding and it does seem a little unkind to ask his brother and sister and not him. I think it would have been nicer if the Duke of Kent alone had represented their branch of the family or to have left the Duke out and had PM and PA there as they had both been attendants at the wedding.

But the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Princess Alexandra are working members of the royal family, whereas Prince Michael of Kent is not. And as Alison H says, personal closeness may have played a part as well.

As it is the monarch's prerogative to determine the order of precedence in the first place, I think we should just accept that the Queen made the decision of the order of procession for Saturday and it's the way she wants it to be done.

I don't think anyone disputes that the Queen has had the final word over the funeral plans; the discussion is in regard to why particular decisions were made.

Just on a different note, we're coming to the end of the era in which consorts of reigning monarchs were themselves born royal. That's something that goes back over 1,000 years.

The Duke of Edinburgh's death also ends the era of male consorts to reigning monarchs of sovereign states, and none now remain.

being Grand Duke of Russia doesn't mean that he is of Russian blood...no matter how Russian he felt or how long his family lived in Russia.

If "Russian blood" does not mean that a family lived for a long time in Russia, what does it mean?
 
The Mods should start a new thread Funerals of the Duke of Edinburgh. Prince and Princess Michael , de Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent are not on the list of 30.

A separate thread for the Funeral of the Duke of Edinburgh will be opened tomorrow.
 
The funeral announcement was also updated with the guestlist. I notice the BBC changed the forms of address for some of the guests, for example changing Mrs. Mike Tindall to Zara Tindall.


Plus "Princess Beatrice of York" and "Princess Eugenie of York".


The official website of the Royal Family stuck with "Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank", "Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi", and "Mr. and Mrs. Mike Tindall".
 
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But the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Princess Alexandra are working members of the royal family, whereas Prince Michael of Kent is not. And as Alison H says, personal closeness may have played a part as well.



I don't think anyone disputes that the Queen has had the final word over the funeral plans; the discussion is in regard to why particular decisions were made.



The Duke of Edinburgh's death also ends the era of male consorts to reigning monarchs of sovereign states, and none now remain.



If "Russian blood" does not mean that a family lived for a long time in Russia, what does it mean?
Russian Blood IMO means the ethnic origins of a family. Its possible to live in Russia, but to come from say German.. so while one might be Russian in citizenship one's not Russian by blood...
 
Can someone explain what does Forfar mean?
It is written on the procession announcement for the funeral, before the name of Duc of York and after the Countess of Wessex
Thanks
IT is the a title recnetly given to Edward Earl of Wessex, (this was mentioned yeserday). He is Earl of Wessex and Earl of Forfar...
 
There is major point raised by this discussion.
This point seems to be still raised for royals, but not anymore for commun people.

I explain myself. There are two major theories still applied. Jus soli and jus sanguinis. What could define your ethnicity and nationality? Where are you born and live or what is the origin of your family? And if the second applies how far behind can you go?
What about the Americans and Australian? Are they still only English or French or whatever was the homeland of the first who arrived there? I think the have the right to be just American or Australians with different origins.
Now for royals. DoE was a mixture. Yes the Danish had a German origin, nevertheless I doubt if the actual DRF would be happy to be called still German. Same for the Belgian RF.
Prince Philip comes from queen Olga, so Russian, with German mixture also.
Only a genetiste and genealogist could write down and find the percentage if his blood per origin. But the question is, how far behind you can go. All royal families were taking foreign brides, and are a huge mixture, but there is a stage the blood definition stops and the ground raised and feelings are predominant.
Can you say that BRF are still German, and Swedish still French?
Considering the special conditions he had in his life, I doubt DoE that he migh feel Greek and of course not German. If he had to feel one country, he was feeling British. Of course this is my only opinion.

As far as a noble person is considering the question , the origin of the house is important which in Philip's case is
Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg a german house which is roots to so many.
The house is German and though the british gov did everything to minimize the fact, again a noble person will not mind to show it's roots, it's positive though wars, prejudice and personal matters of not noble person might wish differently and deny the fact.
 
The guest list was pretty much as I expected. I don't think Lady Pamela Hicks has been close to the Queen for many years. The absence of Prince Michael is interesting, given newly married in spouses of Beatrice and Eugene made the cut.

I think we are making too much of who is in or out. The number was limited to 30. If Peter Philips and Earl Snowden were still with their wives or if Meghan had been cleared to travel there might have been a different list. We could sit and work out a whole range of combinations, there had to be a cut.
We have no idea who is still close and who isn't.
 
I think we are making too much of who is in or out. The number was limited to 30. If Peter Philips and Earl Snowden were still with their wives or if Meghan had been cleared to travel there might have been a different list. We could sit and work out a whole range of combinations, there had to be a cut.
We have no idea who is still close and who isn't.

Im sure that they are all close but when you have to cut the numbers to 30 there are going to be people, equally loved and close, who have to be left out. Simple as that.
 
As far as a noble person is considering the question , the origin of the house is important which in Philip's case is
Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg a german house which is roots to so many.
The house is German and though the british gov did everything to minimize the fact, again a noble person will not mind to show it's roots, it's positive though wars, prejudice and personal matters of not noble person might wish differently and deny the fact.


The House of Windsor is also of German origin (the British branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha) as is also the royal House of Belgium. Philip belonged to the Greek branch of his house, which in turn descended from the Danish branch. It would be quite a stretch to call either one "German".


To make a comparison, the Bourbons are of French origin, but the Spanish Bourbons or the Italian Bourbons are not normally considered French.


As JR76 remarked, due to intermarriage and, I would add, the creation of new national monarchies (like Greece, Belgium, Romania or Norway), it was common for European dynastic families to ascend the throne of other countries.
 
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For all Aussies - the options for free-to-air TV tomorrow night from about 10.30 p.m. is very simple:

Channel 2 (ABC) The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
Channel 7 The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
Channel 9 The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
Channel 10 The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh

Sky News is also covering The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh from about 10.00 p.m. until 8.00 a.m. Sunday morning. The BBC News is also giving coverage for those with pay TV.
 
Im sure that they are all close but when you have to cut the numbers to 30 there are going to be people, equally loved and close, who have to be left out. Simple as that.

Exactly, just as thousands have had to do in the UK in the last year.
 
But the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Princess Alexandra are working members of the royal family, whereas Prince Michael of Kent is not. And as Alison H says, personal closeness may have played a part as well.



I don't think anyone disputes that the Queen has had the final word over the funeral plans; the discussion is in regard to why particular decisions were made.



The Duke of Edinburgh's death also ends the era of male consorts to reigning monarchs of sovereign states, and none now remain.



If "Russian blood" does not mean that a family lived for a long time in Russia, what does it mean?

This is one situation where I don't think who is a working royal and who isn't came into it when drawing up the guestlist.
 
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Article from BBC about the modified Land Rover Defender Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh designed to carry his coffin. The Duke of Edinburgh began creating his own hearse in collaboration with Land Rover in 2003, the year he turned 82. His modifications include the open top rear section, where his coffin will rest, and the military green colour. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56771164
 
But the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Princess Alexandra are working members of the royal family, whereas Prince Michael of Kent is not. And as Alison H says, personal closeness may have played a part as


[/QUOTE

This is one situation where I don't think who is a working royal and who isn't came into it when drawing up the guestlist.

I would agree, it is obviously their family first, then Philips family which would include Countess Mountbatton.
The Kent's and the Gloucesters are cousins.
It is a family occasion not those who do royal duties.
 
Thanks Denville. It should then be so à title of Duc of York, as it is also mentioned before giving name
IT is the a title recnetly given to Edward Earl of Wessex, (this was mentioned yeserday). He is Earl of Wessex and Earl of Forfar...
 
I think we are making too much of who is in or out. The number was limited to 30. If Peter Philips and Earl Snowden were still with their wives or if Meghan had been cleared to travel there might have been a different list. We could sit and work out a whole range of combinations, there had to be a cut.
We have no idea who is still close and who isn't.

I agree, we could spend days speculating who would have been left out if Meghan had been attending......I think the Queen has done the very best she can given the very stringent restrictions on numbers. The same as many other families have had to do over the past year - I've been to 2 family funerals (an aunt and uncle) since the limit of 30 has been in force - one had 19 attending, the other only 17.
 
I asked this morning and the official word is that Windsor Castle is both in Scotland and England. Unsure if this is for the event or how it always is? As the Earl's titles are of the same rank, both have to be listed. If one outranked the other, then only that one would be mentioned - ie. the other Dukes.
I wonder if the same would have happened if the funeral was held at Westminster for example.
I was also told that those not involved in the readings and eulogy will be given their turn at the memorial later and at other memorials planned with the covid restrictions are lifted. So essential the whole family can have a supporting role somewhere, even if we are not aware of it or it is not in the press and on TV.
 
I asked this morning and the official word is that Windsor Castle is both in Scotland and England. Unsure if this is for the event or how it always is? As the Earl's titles are of the same rank, both have to be listed. If one outranked the other, then only that one would be mentioned - ie. the other Dukes.
I wonder if the same would have happened if the funeral was held at Westminster for example.
I was also told that those not involved in the readings and eulogy will be given their turn at the memorial later and at other memorials planned with the covid restrictions are lifted. So essential the whole family can have a supporting role somewhere, even if we are not aware of it or it is not in the press and on TV.

Now that's interesting.
 
I asked the same question in https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...urgh-9-april-2021-a-48531-61.html#post2390898 and received a whole string of answers.

I still find it strange and the only reason I can think of for the title being used now is that Edward is apparently the considered future Duke of Edinburgh.

yes, he's been in line for being Duke of Edinburgh, for many years, since his marriage. He wont get the title till Charles is king.. but for now he has both Earl of Forfar and E of Wessex...
 
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For all Aussies - the options for free-to-air TV tomorrow night from about 10.30 p.m. is very simple:

Channel 2 (ABC) The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
Channel 7 The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
Channel 9 The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh
Channel 10 The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh

Sky News is also covering The Funeral of HRH The Duke of Edinburgh from about 10.00 p.m. until 8.00 a.m. Sunday morning. The BBC News is also giving coverage for those with pay TV.

Thank you! That's my Saturday night organised. Midsomer Murders at 8.30 then straight over to the BBC.

I'm a little surprised that all the free-to-air stations are covering it.
 
IT is the a title recnetly given to Edward Earl of Wessex, (this was mentioned yeserday). He is Earl of Wessex and Earl of Forfar...

Yes see it was indeed answered yesterday see post 1229 and various replies.
 
Queen Mary and Philip's grandmother Victoria were old friends. When news came that Victoria's sister Alix and her family had been massacred by the Bolsheviks, it was Queen Mary who went to sit with Victoria and try to comfort her. And she'd probably put up with a few remarks herself, as the child of a morganatic branch of the family who'd got themselves into all sorts of financial trouble, and wasn't as bothered as others were by Philip's complicated background.



Good points. Thanks. I’d forgotten that.

She was royal from top to toe. At that time, especially after WWII it was very hard, almost impossible to find a royal husband for an heiress.



I also think Queen Mary was happy that her granddaughter found a royal match, not someone outside their circle...and of course, she knew the family well as they were related. Philip's father was nephew of Queen Alexandra, her mother in law and Philip's maternal family were descendants of Queen Victoria and were already living in Britain.



So, I think, in her eyes, she saw a perfect match, royal Prince who is not an heir to some other throne and is far in succession for the same, which could make things more complicated if he was an heir.



Thanks. Philip was certainly royal. He was, in fact, more royal than Queen. Lol Both branches of his family were.

And she did know his family well. He was connected to just about everybody somehow.
 
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