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  #1281  
Old 04-16-2021, 01:33 AM
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Thanks Betsy and Lady Daly for the clarification.
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  #1282  
Old 04-16-2021, 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Tarlita View Post
Thanks Betsy and Lady Daly for the clarification.
You’re welcome !
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  #1283  
Old 04-16-2021, 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Erin9 View Post
I’m not an expert on Queen Mary by any stretch, but it is interesting to me that she seemed to favor the match. Maybe she just realized, rightly, that they would complement each other.
Queen Mary and Philip's grandmother Victoria were old friends. When news came that Victoria's sister Alix and her family had been massacred by the Bolsheviks, it was Queen Mary who went to sit with Victoria and try to comfort her. And she'd probably put up with a few remarks herself, as the child of a morganatic branch of the family who'd got themselves into all sorts of financial trouble, and wasn't as bothered as others were by Philip's complicated background.
  #1284  
Old 04-16-2021, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erin9 View Post
I’m not an expert on Queen Mary by any stretch, but it is interesting to me that she seemed to favor the match. Maybe she just realized, rightly, that they would complement each other.
She was royal from top to toe. At that time, especially after WWII it was very hard, almost impossible to find a royal husband for an heiress.

I also think Queen Mary was happy that her granddaughter found a royal match, not someone outside their circle...and of course, she knew the family well as they were related. Philip's father was nephew of Queen Alexandra, her mother in law and Philip's maternal family were descendants of Queen Victoria and were already living in Britain.

So, I think, in her eyes, she saw a perfect match, royal Prince who is not an heir to some other throne and is far in succession for the same, which could make things more complicated if he was an heir.
  #1285  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:33 AM
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The guest list was pretty much as I expected. I don't think Lady Pamela Hicks has been close to the Queen for many years. The absence of Prince Michael is interesting, given newly married in spouses of Beatrice and Eugene made the cut.
  #1286  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jenedde View Post
The guest list was pretty much as I expected. I don't think Lady Pamela Hicks has been close to the Queen for many years. The absence of Prince Michael is interesting, given newly married in spouses of Beatrice and Eugene made the cut.
As far as I know P Michael has suffered from cancer so it is posible that he did not come for medical reasons. Same with Lady Pamela. I think she was close to Philp but she is over 90 and again health reasons may have meant that she chose to be left out...
  #1287  
Old 04-16-2021, 04:43 AM
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Are you talking about Prince Michael of Kent?
I didn't know he had cancer.

I also presume that if he was still living in London, King Konstantine of Greece would be there as out of the family bonds they were close. King Konstantine is vaccinated already, so no covid risk, but considering his health, I don't think he could easily travel and attend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
As far as I know P Michael has suffered from cancer so it is posible that he did not come for medical reasons. Same with Lady Pamela. I think she was close to Philp but she is over 90 and again health reasons may have meant that she chose to be left out...
  #1288  
Old 04-16-2021, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jenedde View Post
The guest list was pretty much as I expected. I don't think Lady Pamela Hicks has been close to the Queen for many years. The absence of Prince Michael is interesting, given newly married in spouses of Beatrice and Eugene made the cut.
I imagine the married in spouses are there for support and so we don't have 30 people sitting and grieving alone. It's a decision a lot families including mine have had to make - spouses versus wider family who've known the person all their lives and it is awful.

Prince Michael may not be there for medical reasons and also given that his brother and sister are both there carrying the flag of for the Princess Marina connection it was felt that they would represent him and a space given to another family member. It's a really tough thing to have to whittle it down.

On a different tack this will be the first time we've seen Edo in an "official" role on camera.
  #1289  
Old 04-16-2021, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
I understand you completely, but

"Philip himself never was a German, neither by citizenship nor by male-line descent."

"traditionally you are going by the father's ancestry and that was Danish."

Philip wasn't German citizen, that's fine, but his ancestry is completely German, no matter how he felt Scandinavian.

Also his ancestors in male line were German also...The didn't have Danish blood. They came from Germany to rule Denmark for 600 years and married almost exclusively German...

I always read he has Greek blood, Danish blood, British blood, just because his ancestors ruled there, but that is simply not historically true. You can say his ancestors ruled in Greece, Denmark, Russia, but not saying having blood he never actually had.

Those things are just facts, no matter how someone feels, you, me or Prince Philip.

It's fine for me to say how someone personally feels and I RESPECT THAT, but to change someone's ancestry just based on how someone "feels" about it is completely other thing. Those are things that can't be changed, no matter how someone feels.
I'm saying that nationality and ethnicity isn't as simple as you suggest it is. Nationality isn't set in stone and the concept of nationality is a fairly modern one that can't be imposed on societies pre-dating the creation of this concept. In many European countries it's not uncommon for families to change nationality and ethnicity within generations and then back again. Just because someone came from Germany 600 years ago doesn't make their descendants German today. Even if they mostly married other Germans this doesn't necessarily make their descendants German today if they chose not to be.
Philip's ancestors in the male line have ruled in Scandinavia for 600 years and before that in the female line for 600 more years and most of them (there are some very poignant exceptions) considered themselves Scandinavian in spite of what languages they spoke (Norse, Danish, German, French - most of them grew up speaking several like Philip himself did) and where their mothers were born.
Is Philip of predominantly German descent? Yes.
Does this automatically make him German? No.
  #1290  
Old 04-16-2021, 05:58 AM
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From the BBC

The 30 guests who'll be attending the Ceremonial Funeral of the late Duke of Edinburgh.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56765468
  #1291  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
Are you talking about Prince Michael of Kent?
I didn't know he had cancer.

I also presume that if he was still living in London, King Konstantine of Greece would be there as out of the family bonds they were close. King Konstantine is vaccinated already, so no covid risk, but considering his health, I don't think he could easily travel and attend.
Yes P Michael of Kent... I think that he had cancer a few years ago so he may be still in poor health and might be considered high risk to go to the funeral....
  #1292  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:02 AM
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The funeral announcement was also updated with the guestlist. I notice the BBC changed the forms of address for some of the guests, for example changing Mrs. Mike Tindall to Zara Tindall.

https://www.royal.uk/funeral-duke-edinburgh-0


Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsypaige View Post
😭😭😭😭😭😭

Quote:
At #PrincePhilip’s specific request, at the end of the funeral service @RoyalMarines buglers will sound “Action Stations”, the announcement made on a Naval warship that all those serving on board should go to their battle stations
https://twitter.com/royanikkhah/stat...619141635?s=21
Together with the Land Rover that HRH himself helped to design, I find these personal touches amazingly moving.
  #1293  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:05 AM
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There is major point raised by this discussion.
This point seems to be still raised for royals, but not anymore for commun people.

I explain myself. There are two major theories still applied. Jus soli and jus sanguinis. What could define your ethnicity and nationality? Where are you born and live or what is the origin of your family? And if the second applies how far behind can you go?
What about the Americans and Australian? Are they still only English or French or whatever was the homeland of the first who arrived there? I think the have the right to be just American or Australians with different origins.
Now for royals. DoE was a mixture. Yes the Danish had a German origin, nevertheless I doubt if the actual DRF would be happy to be called still German. Same for the Belgian RF.
Prince Philip comes from queen Olga, so Russian, with German mixture also.
Only a genetiste and genealogist could write down and find the percentage if his blood per origin. But the question is, how far behind you can go. All royal families were taking foreign brides, and are a huge mixture, but there is a stage the blood definition stops and the ground raised and feelings are predominant.
Can you say that BRF are still German, and Swedish still French?
Considering the special conditions he had in his life, I doubt DoE that he migh feel Greek and of course not German. If he had to feel one country, he was feeling British. Of course this is my only opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I'm saying that nationality and ethnicity isn't as simple as you suggest it is. Nationality isn't set in stone and the concept of nationality is a fairly modern one that can't be imposed on societies pre-dating the creation of this concept. In many European countries it's not uncommon for families to change nationality and ethnicity within generations and then back again. Just because someone came from Germany 600 years ago doesn't make their descendants German today. Even if they mostly married other Germans this doesn't necessarily make their descendants German today if they chose not to be.
Philip's ancestors in the male line have ruled in Scandinavia for 600 years and before that in the female line for 600 more years and most of them (there are some very poignant exceptions) considered themselves Scandinavian in spite of what languages they spoke (Norse, Danish, German, French - most of them grew up speaking several like Philip himself did) and where their mothers were born.
Is Philip of predominantly German descent? Yes.
Does this automatically make him German? No.
  #1294  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:20 AM
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Can someone explain what does Forfar mean?
It is written on the procession announcement for the funeral, before the name of Duc of York and after the Countess of Wessex
Thanks
  #1295  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:22 AM
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Others have already mentioned him, but I am also very surprised at the absence of Prince Michael and his wife, and also the Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester. They have been both royal and family to Phillip for many decades, whereas the presence of the husbands of Phillip's 3 eldest granddaughters instead of them is very surprising.
  #1296  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:25 AM
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The Mods should start a new thread Funerals of the Duke of Edinburgh. Prince and Princess Michael , de Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent are not on the list of 30.
  #1297  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Is Philip of predominantly German descent? Yes.
Does this automatically make him German? No.
That's the point. I agree with you.

But people often make mistakes regarding blood and citizenship tending to unite it, even if it's basically not true. Being Prince of Greece doesn't mean he is of Greek blood, meaning of Greek ancestry or being Grand Duke of Russia doesn't mean that he is of Russian blood...no matter how Russian he felt or how long his family lived in Russia.

My country is multinational and because of that citizenship and nationality are different things as we all can have same citizenship, but with different nationalities, which is connected with ethnicity. This is the way ethnic minorities can keep their tradition and the law gives them special rights in order to allow them to keep their identity forever. (Like the reserved number of seats in the Parliament despite the electoral result or the right to learn in their own language in state schools etc.)

Anyway, glad we solved this out and let's get back to the topic.
  #1298  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
There is major point raised by this discussion.
This point seems to be still raised for royals, but not anymore for commun people.

I explain myself. There are two major theories still applied. Jus soli and jus sanguinis. What could define your ethnicity and nationality? Where are you born and live or what is the origin of your family? And if the second applies how far behind can you go?
What about the Americans and Australian? Are they still only English or French or whatever was the homeland of the first who arrived there? I think the have the right to be just American or Australians with different origins.
Now for royals. DoE was a mixture. Yes the Danish had a German origin, nevertheless I doubt if the actual DRF would be happy to be called still German. Same for the Belgian RF.
Prince Philip comes from queen Olga, so Russian, with German mixture also.
Only a genetiste and genealogist could write down and find the percentage if his blood per origin. But the question is, how far behind you can go. All royal families were taking foreign brides, and are a huge mixture, but there is a stage the blood definition stops and the ground raised and feelings are predominant.
Can you say that BRF are still German, and Swedish still French?
Considering the special conditions he had in his life, I doubt DoE that he migh feel Greek and of course not German. If he had to feel one country, he was feeling British. Of course this is my only opinion.
It can be a complicated and emotional topic. And especially for someone like Philip having blood family all over Europe.

Charles said recently that he feels a special connection with Greece because his father was born there, not because his father was Greek for example.

The BRF has done all they can to reign as British regardless of their genetic make up and lines of descent. So have the Bernadottes and even the Romanian Royal family in recent years.

I don't think it's entirely fair to say "he's German and that's the end of it, no matter where his ancestors actually lived, for how long or what he felt about it." I mean most people who have Norman ancestry in the UK don't consider themselves French who just happen to be living here for 1000 years.

Quote:
Others have already mentioned him, but I am also very surprised at the absence of Prince Michael and his wife, and also the Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester. They have been both royal and family to Phillip for many decades, whereas the presence of the husbands of Phillip's 3 eldest granddaughters instead of them is very surprising.
The Duchesses may both have been advised not to attend due to health reasons as may Prince Michael.

That said, I don't think it entirely strange that The Queen may have wanted her grandchildren who are married and who's spouses are available to be there to support them so that not everyone is sitting alone.
  #1299  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
I think Princess Alexandra's always been quite close to both the Queen and Prince Philip, and I assume they asked the Duke of Gloucester over Prince Michael so that the Gloucesters weren't left out completely.
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Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
I'm very surprised indeed about Prince Michael as he was a pageboy at the Queen's wedding and it does seem a little unkind to ask his brother and sister and not him. I think it would have been nicer if the Duke of Kent alone had represented their branch of the family or to have left the Duke out and had PM and PA there as they had both been attendants at the wedding.
But the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent and Princess Alexandra are working members of the royal family, whereas Prince Michael of Kent is not. And as Alison H says, personal closeness may have played a part as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
As it is the monarch's prerogative to determine the order of precedence in the first place, I think we should just accept that the Queen made the decision of the order of procession for Saturday and it's the way she wants it to be done.
I don't think anyone disputes that the Queen has had the final word over the funeral plans; the discussion is in regard to why particular decisions were made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
Just on a different note, we're coming to the end of the era in which consorts of reigning monarchs were themselves born royal. That's something that goes back over 1,000 years.
The Duke of Edinburgh's death also ends the era of male consorts to reigning monarchs of sovereign states, and none now remain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc23 View Post
being Grand Duke of Russia doesn't mean that he is of Russian blood...no matter how Russian he felt or how long his family lived in Russia.
If "Russian blood" does not mean that a family lived for a long time in Russia, what does it mean?
  #1300  
Old 04-16-2021, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
The Mods should start a new thread Funerals of the Duke of Edinburgh. Prince and Princess Michael , de Duchesses of Gloucester and Kent are not on the list of 30.
A separate thread for the Funeral of the Duke of Edinburgh will be opened tomorrow.
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