Infanta Cristina's Ducal Title Revoked; June 2015

[Lee-Z]

^^^^^ how can you now use they "all equal" defence when you yourself in many posts on TRF have made clear that you consider royals not equal with commoners, and always making a distinct differentiation between the two...

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by tommy100

I think its interesting that by these actions Cristina still is titled, Infanta and HRH but Inaki is now simply Mr Urdangarin (even if he never held the title in his own right he is no longer part of the Duke & Duchess of Palma de Mallorca).

He still holds the style of Excelentísimo as the spouse of an infanta.

Los tratamientos oficiales. Sus abreviaturas. Tratamientos civiles, militares y religiosos. - Protocolo & Etiqueta

[Charlotte_Aster]

Actually he holds the style of Excellency as a Grandee of Spain and as holder of Grand Collar of Merit in Sports.
As the Duke of Parma he also held the same style as a courtesy.

[Moonmaiden23]

[she is not convicted yet, though with such actions the king obviously does convict his sister before the judge does. I suppose it puts the throne in a more comfortable position for now and it may be a pragmatic and sensible move, but at what price? I think highly of the new king and queen, but this action before any guilt is legally proven is not very edifying IMHO though I am sure it will be a popular move. ]quote Marengo

I agree that Felipe is doing what he feels is necessary to clean house. He is in an unenviable position, but he is scoring points with the press and the public and that is what's important-for now. His integrity is unquestioned, his personal popularity higher than ever. Mission accomplished.

But I am convinced that the monarchy in Spain is doomed anyway. Whether he sticks it to his sister or not the whole house of cards will fall within the next 25 years if not sooner.

So in the end, what are the Borbons left with? A Spanish Republic and an irreparably damaged family.

By throwing his sister(prematurely I believe) to the wolves all Felipe is doing is buying the Crown a little more time. In the end, years from now, I hope he still believes it was worth it.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

He still holds the style of Excelentísimo as the spouse of an infanta.

Los tratamientos oficiales. Sus abreviaturas. Tratamientos civiles, militares y religiosos. - Protocolo & Etiqueta

Excelentísimo Señor is a form of address held by hundreds and hundreds of gentlemen. So that is not such a spectacular form of address.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23

[she is not convicted yet, though with such actions the king obviously does convict his sister before the judge does. I suppose it puts the throne in a more comfortable position for now and it may be a pragmatic and sensible move, but at what price? I think highly of the new king and queen, but this action before any guilt is legally proven is not very edifying IMHO though I am sure it will be a popular move. ]quote Marengo

I agree that Felipe is doing what he feels is necessary to clean house. He is in an unenviable position, but he is scoring points with the press and the public and that is what's important-for now. His integrity is unquestioned, his personal popularity higher than ever. Mission accomplished.

But I am convinced that the monarchy in Spain is doomed anyway. Whether he sticks it to his sister or not the whole house of cards will fall within the next 25 years if not sooner.

So in the end, what are the Borbons left with? A Spanish Republic and an irreparably damaged family.

By throwing his sister(prematurely I believe) to the wolves all Felipe is doing is buying the Crown a little more time. In the end, years from now, I hope he still believes it was worth it.

Why do you say the monarchy in Spain is doomed anyway ? None of the two main political parties in Spain (PP and PSOE) support abolishing the monarchy. I don't see any realistic chance of Spain becoming a republic until one of them (most likely the Socialists) change their stance on the issue.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Lee-Z

^^^^^ how can you now use they "all equal" defence when you yourself in many posts on TRF have made clear that you consider royals not equal with commoners, and always making a distinct differentiation between the two...

There is a clear difference between royals and commoners when we look to descendance. But when someone claims that anyone is equal for law, this case is the best proof that Infanta Doña Cristina is not treated equal at all. King Felipe would not revoke any noble title from a Spaniard without any base like "Justice has spoken, Justice must be done". None of all this, in the case of Doña Cristina. Just a weak howling with the woolfs, while Prime Minister Rajoy is up into his neck in the sh*t with his Partido Popular (as are any other political parties, by the way). Well, well... I am impressed... *not*.

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if King Felipe will discontinue the tradition of bestowing royal dukedoms upon marriage?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

I wonder if King Felipe will discontinue the tradition of bestowing royal dukedoms upon marriage?

There is no any reason for that. Infanta Doña Beatriz, Infanta Doña Pilar, Infanta Doña Margarita, Infanta Doña Elena, all of them have been fine royals. Why "punish" Infanta Doña Leonor and Infanta Doña Sofía with this ill-thought, clumsy and pre-eliminary "action" by their father?

[sjetajiem]

It would be smart to give up your sucession rights and your H.R.H Infanta title on your own free will.
Like f.e. ministers resign when there is no confidence in their performance
As there is clearly a lack of confidence she should resign, otherwise there will always be that feeling of doubt aound her.

If she would really have been innocent it would have been known already a long time ago.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by sjetajiem

It would be smart to give up your sucession rights and your H.R.H Infanta title on your own free will.
Like f.e. ministers resign when there is no confidence in their performance

She can not give up her title as this can only be done by a special Act which has to pass Parliament. And... why should she? I would recommend: wait until Justice has spoken. It is all so premature.

[wyevale]

It is all so premature.

His Majesty's FIRST duty is to protect [and thus preserve] the reputation of the throne. That is what [by this act] he IS doing.

[Al_bina]

King Felipe come across as subservient and weak-minded. Chances of Infanta Christina and her children to ascend the throne are non-existent.
It is short-sighted on King Felipe's part and his advisors' part to placate crowds.

[Moonmaiden23]

Originally Posted by eya

And is Justice speak and say innocent then what? Returns in Spain represented the King in various events and it's all good?

That's what I'd like to know as well. Then what?

[Carminha Stalker]

Originally Posted by Marengo

For what would she be blamed? I hope she isn't still victimized as she actually seems like a strong lady to me.

***
I see the 'innocent until proven guilty' is not a sentiment shared by many, including the court and the king. Nobody has been convicted yet so it seems a bit premature. Though this action shows that the royal court has not a lot of faith in what will happen next. Perhaps rightly so.

I suppose it makes the court look pro-active. That it was the king withdrawing the title distances him even further from the mess, which is a sensible harm-reduction policy. If Cristina would have given up the title herself the sentiment would most likely be 'why didn't she give up her HRH too?' While now she seems to be punished and humiliated which may apease some of the Spanish public for now.
I can't help but feel sorry for the family. They must have suffered a lot these last years and the list of humiliations is not over yet. Of course it is self-inlicted, but still... I am sure that many in Spain and elsewhere will be gloating over this but I don't think it wise to beat somebody who is already down.

I agree with you.I feel a lot for that Family.Besides, I don´t understand why this case has taken so long to be decided?It seems like it´s been dragged down on and on and on forever.If they are guilty as they say, they should have had a decision a long time ago.And I thought Brazilian law was slow!

[Florestane]

Maybe, just maybe - the King knows more about the background to this case than the general public. Maybe, he isn't expecting the Infanta Cristina to be found innocent.

[GracieGiraffe]

Originally Posted by Florestane

Maybe, just maybe - the King knows more about the background to this case than the general public. Maybe, he isn't expecting the Infanta Cristina to be found innocent.

That is entirely possible. I can't imagine that the attorneys for the SRF have not had some sort of briefing, or perhaps have been permitted to look at the evidence themselves.

[casualfan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Okay. Give me your drive license. Now. You have not been found guilty, you have not been convicted. But give me your drive license. Now.

Exactly the same principle. What will happen when the Court of Justice decides that there is no sufficient ground for the claims laid down on the Infanta? Will she be restored then? It is all so premature and shows Don Felipe as a man of little principle.

So to see the basic principle Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof is on he who declares, not on he who denies), is not in good hands with the King. He has already declared his sister guilty.

It's not the same thing at all. This action was taken after years of investigation and years of legal wrangling. There is every indication that the accusations are not empty.

[casualfan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

There is a clear difference between royals and commoners when we look to descendance. But when someone claims that anyone is equal for law, this case is the best proof that Infanta Doña Cristina is not treated equal at all. King Felipe would not revoke any noble title from a Spaniard without any base like "Justice has spoken, Justice must be done". None of all this, in the case of Doña Cristina. Just a weak howling with the woolfs, while Prime Minister Rajoy is up into his neck in the sh*t with his Partido Popular (as are any other political parties, by the way). Well, well... I am impressed... *not*.

First, please let me borrow your knife because clearly it is sharp enough to split any hair.

Second, she is being treated the same as anyone else. You think a businessperson, teacher, politician, or anything else caught up in these allegations and this amount of evidence gets to keep their JOB until it's settled? No! It's ridiculous! People will stand by you unless a preponderance of evidence goes against you. Then, you deal with the consequences of what your actions have been.

[Isabella]

Originally Posted by casualfan

First, please let me borrow your knife because clearly it is sharp enough to split any hair.

Second, she is being treated the same as anyone else. You think a businessperson, teacher, politician, or anything else caught up in these allegations and this amount of evidence gets to keep their JOB until it's settled? No! It's ridiculous! People will stand by you unless a preponderance of evidence goes against you. Then, you deal with the consequences of what your actions have been.

This is why I'm surprised at so many people's responses - people have to deal with the consequences of their actions, and those consequences don't all wait until a jury returns a verdict (or whatever the legal process is). just for the sake of using an ordinary person as an example, when I was in school, I had a teacher who was accused of inappropriate behavior with students. When the school had legitimate evidence of this, they fired him on the spot. From there, though, the legal process took a while - it was six years before his criminal case was concluded (he's in jail these days). Should he have been allowed to keep his job for those six years just because of the legal presumption of innocence? Of course not. Just as, like you said, business people, politicians and others are often fired or forced to resign from their jobs, etc., if there is strong evidence of serious wrongdoing. I think people are getting the wrong idea of the context of the principle of being innocent until proven guilty. It applies to the justice system, but it doesn't stand in the way of other consequences for inappropriate behavior.