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  #161  
Old 12-09-2020, 11:07 AM
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She is Royal Free spirit and her parents never brought her down to earth to think more practically Or pragmatically about duty, finances or people in her life. Money flows in from King dad or royal connections to support whatever fancy she has right now.
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  #162  
Old 12-09-2020, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by amaryllus View Post
She is Royal Free spirit and her parents never brought her down to earth to think more practically Or pragmatically about duty, finances or people in her life. Money flows in from King dad or royal connections to support whatever fancy she has right now.
I assume she was alwasy expected to do some royal duties.. but she's been into this angels stuff and then selling her royal connextions...
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  #163  
Old 12-09-2020, 01:01 PM
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Why would she prepare for a "real career"? She was a princess, one of only 2 children of the monarch....

Yes, I think it's that she was raised to be a Princess & conduct royal duties. Then, as an adult, she decided that she did not wish to. Fair enough, her wish was granted, but at that point she should have perhaps started preparing herself for & eventually have had a real career.

Or, I suppose she can continue to live off her parents if they are willing, but apparently she went beyond what they are giving her, which is why she had to sell her holiday house.

Again, that's fine, she doesn't necessarily need a holiday house if she can't afford it but now, she should maybe be a bit more careful. Because if she gets into debt again, what is there left to sell? Certainly her parents would always bail her out and I imagine even her brother would (at least the first time), but it just doesn't seem like the best course of action.
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  #164  
Old 12-09-2020, 01:02 PM
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What's this reality show about? If it's about the princess herself it sounds like a very bad idea. And very much 'living of her princess title'...

Yes, it's about the Princess and her life. The shaman and her daughters will apparently also feature.
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  #165  
Old 12-09-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by amaryllus View Post
She is Royal Free spirit and her parents never brought her down to earth to think more practically Or pragmatically about duty, finances or people in her life. Money flows in from King dad or royal connections to support whatever fancy she has right now.
I'm afraid you nailed it.

I don't think she worries about being in debt, because someone will always bail her out. If for no other reason that's it's an embarrassment to the family.
But she is now, I believe, having serious problems getting a credit anywhere. As in anywhere at all! And without credit she can't maintain her carefree lifestyle.
So she needs money!

I think Haakon will stop funding her. Either because he has to (pressure from the government) or because he puts his foot down.
And while any spectacle she may make of herself will cause a stir in Norway and places like this forum - it won't matter much to the world. A secondary Norwegian Princess causing a few scandals, won't amount to more than five pages in a weekly gossip mag outside Norway or a superficial five minutes segment in some royal review docu.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Eleanor View Post
I really don't think that the shaman has got enough money to pay for the kind of lifestyle that Märtha Louise is used to. ML is one of several examples of royals, who grew up being used to a royal lifestyle and then as an adult, not being the heir, have had trouble financing the way they like to live. She has not pursued the kind of career that could pay for it and she has not married rich - not the first time and as I said, I really don't think the shaman is that rich either.

He probably has a comfortable upper middle class lifestyle or something along those lines but I just don't think that he can finance the upper class life that ML is used to. Yes, he is schmoozing with Gwyneth Paltrow and some other Hollywood people, his "treatments" or "consultations" seem to be expensive, but he is probably not a multi-millionaire.

He doesn't even own a house or apartment. This is mentioned in the Vanity Fair interview, where Märtha Louise says that her Norwegian friends found it strange that the shaman does not have a permanent residence but lives in changing apartments rented via AirBnB.

I think this would also be an issue, even if Märtha wanted to move to California with the shaman (and she probably does), where would they live? She has 3 children who are used to living in a big house and probably each have their own room. The Los Angeles area is expensive...

I don't think the shaman could afford all that ML is used to: a nice house in an expensive area, the horses, the travels, etc etc.

I don't think ML is strategic about marrying the shaman or someone else for money, or even about using her Princess status to earn a very large amount of money. Certainly, she is aware on some level that she should be earning money and she has used her title & status to earn money (though I don't even think that all of this title business is about earning money. I think some of it is also just "I was born a Princess, so of course I will call myself a Princess.") But it has never been strategic and cunning enough to earn her enough money to live the lifestyle that she would like.

I think on a certain level she is simply spoilt and unrealistic, as some royals are. I mean what is the worst thing that could happen to Märtha Louise? Getting into so much debt that after selling her holiday house, she'd have sell her other house as well? Then what? She and her children would probably be moving into Oslo Palace or another one of her parents' estates. Oh the plight of that
The plight indeed...

You present a very good argument.

I suspect they are both looking at each other as opportunity for making money.
Durek, because a real life Princess might be of use in his business where name dropping matters.
ML because she through Durek gets access to a much larger market than Scandinavia, she get contacts and no one really knows her in USA.
But also because, she is not very good at what she is doing.

Has her book reached the top on any bookseller list worth mentioning?
Her angel school flopped.
And her droning on and on about herself and miserable she was in her golden cage has lost news interest. Not least after Corona. It's getting boring. And it's akin to someone telling a homeless: "Times are hard indeed. You know, I can only afford to eat caviar twice a week now!"
So what else has she got?
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  #166  
Old 12-16-2020, 01:41 AM
eya eya is offline
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Princess Martha Louise talks to Insider:

"Princess Märtha Louise of Norway says she was a problem from the moment she was born because a female couldn't be monarch at the time.

Märtha Louise spoke to Insider about the Norwegian royal family's battle for gender equality, saying that she was offered the opportunity to be queen when she was a teenager.

"They said, 'What do you want, Märtha?' And I'm like, 'I'm 15, I don't know about these things,'" the princess told Insider."

https://www.insider.com/princess-mar...-queen-2020-12
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  #167  
Old 12-16-2020, 04:31 AM
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Interesting.

I think it was for the best that Martha didn't become her father's heir as it's obviously not a role which suits her at all. It's good that she acknowledges that whilst it's hard to be considered a "disappointment" to many because you're a girl, her parents weren't the ones doing so at all and they really loved having a girl.

The PM "suddenly deciding" women should inherit the throne if they're born first? I'm sure it was a lot more involved than that.

Interesting that she puts all the treatment her mother received down to sexism and not classism because she was a commoner. Weren't there also controversies about Harald's sisters marrying commoners?

I suppose it's not very surprising that the palace was run like a military operation with no place for women given that King Olav was military and never had a Queen given his wife's death. I'm glad Sonja was able to start rectifying that once she became Queen.
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  #168  
Old 12-16-2020, 10:02 AM
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Well, the fact that she was offered the chance to become Queen is certainly a new and very interesting piece of information.

The fact that it was Norwegian's first female PM who pushed for it is maybe not so surprising, but I don't think this was a known fact? Also, at that point Sweden had already changed its succession law, so it makes sense that it was considered in Norway as well.

Yes, when she was asked at 15, she was perhaps a bit young but at least she was asked - the other older sisters of male heirs never were. She might not see it, but looking at royal families in general, being asked whether you want to be the heir and having nobody know in case you declined, is actually a great privilege.

I'm very much in favor of absolute primogeniture, but in the case of Märtha Louise, it is very obvious that she has never wanted the throne and that has remained so.

This is a nice compliment to her mother though: "Watching her fight for equality, and how she managed with little wins there, little losses there, and my father supporting her, seeing her persisting for such a long time that it paid off in the end — I learned so much from her." Certainly, Sonja had a difficult time at court for many years, but has persevered in the end.
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  #169  
Old 12-16-2020, 10:35 AM
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They said "what do you want?", though. If she had said "I want to be Queen!", would they in fact have managed to change the rules for her? I'm not so sure. (Two decades earlier, but no one asked Margrethe in Denmark. Her wishes were not a part of the monarch-making process. Or her cousin the toddler Victoria in Sweden.)

Do you really make a teenager's views the deciding factor?
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  #170  
Old 12-16-2020, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
They said "what do you want?", though. If she had said "I want to be Queen!", would they in fact have managed to change the rules for her? I'm not so sure. (Two decades earlier, but no one asked Margrethe in Denmark. Her wishes were not a part of the monarch-making process. Or her cousin the toddler Victoria in Sweden.)

Do you really make a teenager's views the deciding factor?

Of course, it's not a given that they would have managed to change it, but it's not implausible in my opinion. Sweden changed the law in 1980, the Netherlands in 1983, Belgium in 1991. So I do think they might have been able to do it in Norway in 1987 or so. And in the end, they did change it in 1990, just not for Märtha Louise - and that might, among other reasons, also have to do with the fact that she wouldn't have wanted it.

I know succession is not always about what people want, but changing the law for somebody who appears likely to then forsake their position, would be a really bad look. Not that a 15-year-old's view is always the same that they will hold as an adult but as for Märtha, if we go by her own words, she seems to always have disliked her positon and that has remained so.

Whether it would have worked or not, I think it's good that she never regretted her answer. Many people might and wonder what if...

What I don't quite understand is why she still seems so discontent. After all, she got what she wanted - not everybody does. Some people might prefer to be the heir, some people might prefer not to be the heir... but she got exactly what she wished for and luckily her opinion has remained the same.
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  #171  
Old 12-16-2020, 12:19 PM
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Well it's easier to ask a 15 year old than a toddler.

It may not have made a difference as Haakon was 13 compared to baby Carl-Philip as well. I wonder if they asked *his* opinion.

I think if M-L had seemed like she wanted to be given the chance then it might have made them consider changing it in that generation and not just the next. But even when she was a teenager she was chafing at her life so there was probably no strong "she'd make an excellent Queen" from various people that could have brought it about, possibly the opposite. Even though that's also an unfair observation for a 15 year old it has remained very true in M-L's case.


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Originally Posted by Princess_Eleanor View Post

What I don't quite understand is why she still seems so discontent. After all, she got what she wanted - not everybody does. Some people might prefer to be the heir, some people might prefer not to be the heir... but she got exactly what she wished for and luckily her opinion has remained the same.
Well that's a good question. She seems to be one of those people who's eternally on the lookout for something but they don't quite know what so they never find it. And she clearly does like using the perks of her position at times.
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  #172  
Old 12-16-2020, 01:39 PM
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Interesting tidbit about Märtha being asked whether she would be interested in becoming her father's heir (she was entered into the line of succession; which she previously was not!).

The article itself is rather confusing because of course Sonja didn't have an office when she was still 'Sonja Haraldsen'...

Quote:
According to Märtha Louise, Queen Sonja — then known as Sonja Haraldsen — wasn't allowed to have her own office, and palace officials questioned her request to have her own staff.

"She wasn't even accepted in the building," Märtha Louise said.
It would be very unreasonable for a girlfriend (who wasn't accepted because of her non-royal backgroud/not because of anything related to gender equality) to expect to have her own office and staff. It would have been nice if they had let her into the building but again; had the situation been reversed (an unaccepted boyfriend), it would have been the same...

And as other pointed out: this doesn't add up either:
Quote:
"We have a long way to go for equal rights for women. I've seen my mom struggle, because when she came into the palace they had to wait nine years to get married because she wasn't aristocracy or from any royal background," Märtha Louise said.
And, stating yourself to be 'a problem' from birth seems very dramatic, especially when your parents were really happy to have a daughter. And, I don't think they were that worried as she was only their first child, so it wasn't unreasonable to think that among any future children might be a boy. I'd say princess Christina of Sweden would far more likely have been considered 'a disappointment' or 'problem'; as she was the fourth girl in a row... And I also wonder whether her aunt princess Astrid would agree that women were completely banned from court and were 'problems' from birth. She definitely worked really hard in supporting her father as a stand-in for her late mother; and seems to have been valued in that role and is valued until today.
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  #173  
Old 12-16-2020, 02:21 PM
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The article does indeed sound a bit confusing at times. What was meant was that Sonja was not allowed in the building = the palace to visit her boyfriend Harald while they were dating. Sonja and Harald have talked about this: she was invited, along with other friends of Harald's when King Olav thought she was just a friend. Once he realized she was actually Harald's girlfriend, she was banned and they could only meet at her house.

It was when she was Crown Princess that she was not allowed her own office space or staff (eg a private secretary or assistants). Again, Sonja has talked about that. She had to fight for all of it, for years. Later, when Mette-Marit married Haakon, Sonja made sure that she would get everything she needed and be supported & respected in her role.

It was rather strange that she did not get her own office or staff. As has been mentioned, it also had to do with the fact that Norway had not had a Crown Princess for many years, no Queen for even longer and then that Queen was Maud, who spent much of her time in the UK, her country of origin.

It was probably a mixture of sexism and classism if I had to guess. Despite Astrid having acted as first lady, the court was very much a man's world Additionally, Astrid as a born Princess and the King's daughter, was probably indeed met with more respect than Sonja. Being allowed to marry in, did not mean that her fight for acceptance was over.

Something similar happened again when Sonja became Queen and it was considered strangely unacceptable for her to attend the Opening of Parliament, as consorts in other countries usually did and do. Harald insisted and it was basically a scandal.

There was indeed pressure to produce a male heir but that pressure too was on Sonja, not Märtha Louise. As she says herself, her parents never let her feel it. Prior to giving birth to Märtha Louise, Sonja had had a miscarriage and there was much unkind speculation as to whether she would manage to "produce" the required heir. Since they had had to wait so long until they were allowed to marry, Sonja was also already in her 30s, which at the time was considered a more advanced age to have children than it is now.

So basically yes, there was pressure to have a male heir and questions as to whether it would happen. That might be what Märtha Louise meant. However, I can't help but feel that once again she is projecting all of this onto herself, when it was really her mother who suffered from it and as she says, she was never treated any differently from her brother by her parents and they loved having a girl...
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  #174  
Old 12-16-2020, 03:20 PM
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It's an excuse, I'm afraid. If she'd been a boy and the heir, (s)he'd be complaining about being stuck and having no choice in life. If he'd been younger, it would be not having a role and only being a spare part, like we see elsewhere. She's looking for excuses to reject the Court like she always does. As a highly sensitive person, she's probably looking for the least-overwhelming situation. And she may never find it.
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  #175  
Old 12-16-2020, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess_Eleanor View Post
(...)

Something similar happened again when Sonja became Queen and it was considered strangely unacceptable for her to attend the Opening of Parliament, as consorts in other countries usually did and do. Harald insisted and it was basically a scandal.

(...)
Unfortunately, the crown princess is still banned from attending the Opening of Parliament... Hopefully Haakon will make sure that Ingrid-Alexandra's spouse (and any spouses afterwards) will attend as well.
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  #176  
Old 12-16-2020, 07:56 PM
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Unfortunately, the crown princess is still banned from attending the Opening of Parliament... Hopefully Haakon will make sure that Ingrid-Alexandra's spouse (and any spouses afterwards) will attend as well.
Is Martha Louise banned because of something she's said or done? Or is it that only the King and Queen and the Crown Prince and Princess attend the opening of Parliament. Regarding ML's finances, the Insider article also mentioned that production on her TV documentary is currently halted due to the pandemic. Unless she received money up front she can't count on the tv show as a source of income.
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  #177  
Old 12-16-2020, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Is Martha Louise banned because of something she's said or done? Or is it that only the King and Queen and the Crown Prince and Princess attend the opening of Parliament. Regarding ML's finances, the Insider article also mentioned that production on her TV documentary is currently halted due to the pandemic. Unless she received money up front she can't count on the tv show as a source of income.
The crown princess does not attend the opening of Parliament was the point I was making. Märtha Louise doesn't attend either but that can be explained by her not being part of the 'core family'. I don't think she ever attended nor does princess Astrid.
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  #178  
Old 12-16-2020, 09:16 PM
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The crown princess does not attend the opening of Parliament was the point I was making. Märtha Louise doesn't attend either but that can be explained by her not being part of the 'core family'. I don't think she ever attended nor does princess Astrid.
Thank you, I now see that was mentioned in a previous post. I'm a bit out of the loop re: who attends opening of Parliament in Norway vs eg. Denmark or Great Britain. The structures of protocol and custom vary within the countries that have constitutional monarchies. When you say "banned" you mean not allowed because of current institutional restrictions and customs. I found an interesting explanation on Royal Central (not to get too far off topic).
https://royalcentral.co.uk/europe/no...iament-131155/
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  #179  
Old 12-17-2020, 01:24 AM
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Things slowly change with time.

When Harald married, his father had been a widower since before he took the throne. So for him when he attended parliament, he was accompanied only by his heir and no one else. His eldest daughter who acted as first lady until Sonja married in, did not accompany them. He didn't see the need to change that when his son married. Simply the sovereign and the heir, no one else. When Harald came to the throne he saw it as important that the sovereign's spouse should attend, so Sonja could accompany him. But just them, and the heir, not the heir's spouse when he married. Haakon may choose to ammend this himself in the future, and allow his heir's spouse to attend.


I find Martha Louise's article a bit hard to follow and believe in parts.


Her portraying the royal family as military like and excluding women until her mother married? Astrid served as first lady for years before her brother married. She actively was at her father's side helping with functions that normally would have been filled by her mother, or her brother's wife. Clearly women were not excluded from royal life.

I have never heard it mentioned even once that ML was given the choice whether to be made heir or not.

Quote:
They said "what do you want?", though. If she had said "I want to be Queen!", would they in fact have managed to change the rules for her? I'm not so sure. (Two decades earlier, but no one asked Margrethe in Denmark. Her wishes were not a part of the monarch-making process. Or her cousin the toddler Victoria in Sweden.)

Do you really make a teenager's views the deciding factor?
Quote:
Well it's easier to ask a 15 year old than a toddler.

It may not have made a difference as Haakon was 13 compared to baby Carl-Philip as well. I wonder if they asked *his* opinion.
There is no comparison. Victoria wasn't a toddler. CP was not a baby.

Sweden didn't make the changes retroactively (like Belgium did). They started the process before Victoria was even born. The decision was made before her or her brother ever took their first breath. It simply took a long time for the process to be completed. When CP was born, his father knew full well he would not remain crown prince for long. Victoria became Crown Princess as it was dated to when the process started, not when it finished.
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  #180  
Old 12-17-2020, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Things slowly change with time.

......

I find Martha Louise's article a bit hard to follow and believe in parts.


Her portraying the royal family as military like and excluding women until her mother married? Astrid served as first lady for years before her brother married. She actively was at her father's side helping with functions that normally would have been filled by her mother, or her brother's wife. Clearly women were not excluded from royal life.

I have never heard it mentioned even once that ML was given the choice whether to be made heir or not.


There is no comparison. Victoria wasn't a toddler. CP was not a baby.

Sweden didn't make the changes retroactively (like Belgium did). They started the process before Victoria was even born. The decision was made before her or her brother ever took their first breath. It simply took a long time for the process to be completed. When CP was born, his father knew full well he would not remain crown prince for long. Victoria became Crown Princess as it was dated to when the process started, not when it finished.
I realise that it was a long process involving being voted on by several sittings of Parliament over a number of years, but the changes came into effect when both were born but too young to know any different so they couldn't have an opinion. However their parents seem to have wanted CP to be CP as it were and officially proclaiming him Crown Prince have been discussed as an attempt to get the government to apply it for the next generation instead. Not that they ended up having any say in it. Which makes Martha's claim that she had a say in her status Very interesting.

I do wonder at the accuracy of her account. She does have a habit of sometimes changing things to fit her narrative.

Perhaps she (and maybe Haakon) were asked their opinions by someone but that wasn't anything official, just acting as a concerned relative? What do you think of "this debate that might entirely change your life, Martha?"

I can see that the Court might be quite military like even though Astrid acted as first lady. I can also see ML brushing over any impact Astrid did or didn't have as unimportant to the story she was trying to tell at the moment. She doesn't mention that her aunts faced opposition to their marriages as well. Especially as she appears to be conflating classism, snobbery, protocol and sexism into one thing to talk about one of her current problems. But we know all of which Sonja *did* face.

Does anyone know of any good books in English about this period in the Norwegian royal family? I find it very interesting.
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