Edinburgh and Wessex Titles

[Denville]

I always thought this might be something given to Edward on his 60th birthday. That would lead to another year of speculation however.

Its really up to Charles. He has a lot on his plate this year, and giving a title to his younger brother is probably not his top priority right now.

 

[Somebody]

Its really up to Charles. He has a lot on his plate this year, and giving a title to his younger brother is probably not his top priority right now.

It's not that it is that much work... He already promised to do so, so he only needs someone to prepare the paperwork and an announcement. Not doing it, is causing more 'trouble' in the long run than dealing with it straight away.

 

[Denville]

Its not causing any troulbe at all. I doubt if Edward is upset about it, and as Charles is te king, he gets to choose if he gives the title or when he gives it.

 

[kimebear]

It's not that it is that much work...

This exactly.

I keep seeing over and over again about how busy Charles is, but the labor involved in granting the title to Edward is about 30 seconds of signing a document. I'm sure Charles can spare that much time for a working royal. Saying that he's too busy is a lame excuse.

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

Edward being the DoE fulfills the agreement and their parents' wishes and presumably Edward's. There was nothing about then-nonexistent James in the agreement — and nothing to suggest that very-quiet and private Viscount Severn, who's going to be an Earl anyway, even wants to be a Duke. So this may be the best possible solution, anomalous or not.

Assuming that it will happen, I think the King should do it this March, before the Coronation, and benefit from appearing generous and fraternal.

I agree and hope the King will do it this March before the coronation.
What if in years to come, Louise wanted to take over the DOE program - could she get the title? Perhaps linking the title to whichever person in the RF plans to head this up? At some point whomever this may be (Charlotte , Louis, Louise, James, someone else?) could become involved with Edward and know they’ll get the title at some point.
My understanding is that this is a very successful program but programs do come and go. Who knows it it will be important 50-75 years from now? But if the title is linked in this way, it seems the program would have a better chance of surviving.
This may not be a good idea at all - I’m just spitballing

 

[LauraS3514]

Harry and Andrew both have 4 titles. (thats is saying Archie has not been given one)
Edward only has 3 - Severn is with James.
.

Prince Edward is Viscount Severn. James "borrows" the title by courtesy as his heir.

 

[Denville]

This exactly.

I keep seeing over and over again about how busy Charles is, but the labor involved in granting the title to Edward is about 30 seconds of signing a document. I'm sure Charles can spare that much time for a working royal. Saying that he's too busy is a lame excuse.

I think that Charles is the one who knows exactly how busy he is, and the issue of the Dukedom is IMO something that he has been thinking of, for the past while, to decide whether it is a good idea for Edw to have that particular dukedom. He has other things that are a priority, particularly the Harry situation, and his own Coronation and his usual duties. Odds are too that while the queen worked right up to the end, she has been a frail old lady for some years now and Chales has a lot to catch up with.

 

[Denville]

I agree and hope the King will do it this March before the coronation.
What if in years to come, Louise wanted to take over the DOE program - could she get the title? Perhaps linking the title to whichever person in the RF plans to head this up? At some point whomever this may be (Charlotte , Louis, Louise, James, someone else?) could become involved with Edward and know they’ll get the title at some point.
My understanding is that this is a very successful program but programs do come and go. Who knows it it will be important 50-75 years from now? But if the title is linked in this way, it seems the program would have a better chance of surviving.
This may not be a good idea at all - I’m just spitballing

I doubt if Louise will want a royal role, she hasn't been brought up to expect it and as the daughter of a fourth child Im sure she never wanted to be landed wiht royal duties. SHe will probalby have her own career. As for the title, unless the King changes things, usually titles to go the next male heir so she's not going to become Duchess of Ed even if Edward gets it.

 

[Excalibur]

My "pipe dream" would be that Edward be gifted with the Duke of Edinburgh title on the occasion of his 59th birthday, and that the Letters Patent be written without the "heirs of the body male" stipulation, so that Lady Louise, who herself had a special relationship with her grandfather, would inherit the title and carry on his legacy.
At the time of the agreement in 1999, the plan was that Edward and Sophie were NOT to be working royals, so there was no expectation of the title remaining "royal". Any lingering in the spotlight would be as representative/patron of the DofE Award Scheme, which I believe Lady Louise has endorsed through her participation in said program.
JMHO.

 

[Royalist.in.NC]

My "pipe dream" would be that Edward be gifted with the Duke of Edinburgh title on the occasion of his 59th birthday, and that the Letters Patent be written without the "heirs of the body male" stipulation, so that Lady Louise, who herself had a special relationship with her grandfather, would inherit the title and carry on his legacy.
At the time of the agreement in 1999, the plan was that Edward and Sophie were NOT to be working royals, so there was no expectation of the title remaining "royal". Any lingering in the spotlight would be as representative/patron of the DofE Award Scheme, which I believe Lady Louise has endorsed through her participation in said program.
JMHO.

I share your pipe dream which you articulated beautifully

 

[Prinsara]

It would be nice for Philip's dear Lady Louise to be the future Duchess, but again, who says she wants to be, especially with a title she'd have had even less expectation of inheriting than her brother?

And how would it be fair to Beatrice?

 

[Excalibur]

It would be nice for Philip's dear Lady Louise to be the future Duchess, but again, who says she wants to be, especially with a title she'd have had even less expectation of inheriting than her brother?

And how would it be fair to Beatrice?

We have no idea what Lady Louise's expectations are, as we are not privy to the conversations that may have taken place regarding the issuance of this title. And as for fairness to Princess Beatrice, it is entirely within his prerogative for King Charles III to re-create the Duke of York title similarly in the event Prince Andrew dies without a male heir.

 

[Prinsara]

And as for fairness to Princess Beatrice, it is entirely within his prerogative for King Charles III to re-create the Duke of York title similarly in the event Prince Andrew dies without a male heir.

...and the odds of C3 doing so (assuming he were to even outlive the significantly younger Andrew) are somewhere below those of a gender-neutral absolute primogeniture re-creation of the Edinburgh title. So the scenario remains unfair for other female family members who could theoretically inherit.

 

[Curryong]

York is, like Gloucester, an extremely ancient royal Dukedom, and still with the royal family at the moment. I’d hate to see the York dukedom move away from the BRF, regardless of whether the future recipients are male or female.

Because of its peculiar history York remains but if it goes down the line of Beatrice’s descendants it won’t, and that would be a shame iMO, just as I regret the Gloucester line going that way in the future.

Admittedly the Edinburgh title isn’t so old, and I am surprised actually that Queen Victoria’s second son Affie was given that rather than York, but I do think that it should be re-created for Edward with this dukedom just being allowed to go naturally to James and his son, if he has one. Keeping it in the royal family might be more trouble than it’s worth if Scotland reaches independence in say another fifty years.

 

[TLLK]

My "pipe dream" would be that Edward be gifted with the Duke of Edinburgh title on the occasion of his 59th birthday, and that the Letters Patent be written without the "heirs of the body male" stipulation, so that Lady Louise, who herself had a special relationship with her grandfather, would inherit the title and carry on his legacy.
At the time of the agreement in 1999, the plan was that Edward and Sophie were NOT to be working royals, so there was no expectation of the title remaining "royal". Any lingering in the spotlight would be as representative/patron of the DofE Award Scheme, which I believe Lady Louise has endorsed through her participation in said program.
JMHO.

I wholeheartedly support your "pipe dream" . Her brother could inherit the title Earl of Wessex.

 

[ada]

Now that's a good idea

 

[Denville]

My "pipe dream" would be that Edward be gifted with the Duke of Edinburgh title on the occasion of his 59th birthday, and that the Letters Patent be written without the "heirs of the body male" stipulation, so that Lady Louise, who herself had a special relationship with her grandfather, would inherit the title and carry on his legacy.
At the time of the agreement in 1999, the plan was that Edward and Sophie were NOT to be working royals, so there was no expectation of the title remaining "royal". Any lingering in the spotlight would be as representative/patron of the DofE Award Scheme, which I believe Lady Louise has endorsed through her participation in said program.
JMHO.

why would you think that Louise would want to be carrying on the DOE scheme and working in that field? Hasnt she taken a job in a garden centre? She may well want her own career doing what she likes to do, whatever that is, and not being tied to royal life

 

[Curryong]

why would you think that Louise would want to be carrying on the DOE scheme and working in that field? Hasnt she taken a job in a garden centre? She may well want her own career doing what she likes to do, whatever that is, and not being tied to royal life

Yes I agree. Louise has never shown any signs of wanting a life on the royal roster or tending to any of her parents’ charities. Instead she’s happily looking forward to attending University and after that will no doubt be looking forward to a career and private life of her own.

 

[Granada]

Curryong, the reason that Victoria and Albert didn't give their second son Alfred the Duke of York Title is that She viewed *most * of the Uncles as wicked and scandalous. In great financial debt with lax morals, She wanted to distance Her and Albert's Children from association with them. They were VERY unpopular with the Public. Continuously mocked.

Her Uncle, Frederick Duke of York, was as scandal plagued as his brothers. Another one of her Uncles, Ernest Duke of Cumberland, who later became the King of Hanover and Victoria waged a VERY bitter battle over Queen Charlotte's ( Ernest's mothers - Victoria's Grandmother) valuable jewels that Victoria ultimately lost. She was in possession of them and had to surrender them to him.
I think the only Uncle She really viewed favourably was King William lV, inspite of Victoria's mothers best intentions to isolate them from each other.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

[...] and as Charles is te king, he gets to choose if he gives the title or when he gives it.

Yes, of course, it is Charles as king who chooses if he gives the dukedom he promised to give, or when he gives it. I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest otherwise. It is precisely why he, and not Edward or anyone other person, is the one held accountable.

I keep seeing over and over again about how busy Charles is, but the labor involved in granting the title to Edward is about 30 seconds of signing a document. I'm sure Charles can spare that much time for a working royal. Saying that he's too busy is a lame excuse.

I think that Charles is the one who knows exactly how busy he is, [...]

There doesn't seem to have been any suggestion from the king, or even from anonymous "sources close to Charles", that busyness is the reason for the inaction.

why would you think that Louise would want to be carrying on the DOE scheme and working in that field? Hasnt she taken a job in a garden centre? She may well want her own career doing what she likes to do, whatever that is, and not being tied to royal life

The same could be said for James.

 

[Denville]

I would say that given the fact that Charles is due to be crowned in a few months and has massive problems in his own family, its obvious htat he is pretty overloaded And of course he is not going to offer explanation as to why he has/hasn't given the title to Edward

 

[bekalc]

Yeah, I knew all that about Edward. My road was the one of Edward saying to HM, Oh Mummy, Mummy, I want to be Wessex. It probably didn't happen that way, but if it did, immature -- no?

Why would it be immature? If the discussion is a title for him. And he asked for that title instead of being made the Duke of Cambridge. But his Father told him that he wanted him to have his title when he died.

So instead of insisting on the Higher rank right now he took the lesser one.

He also at the same time announced his kids would not go by HRH or prince and Princess because he wanted them some more normality since it’s unlikely they would be working royals.

I actually like the balance between no title and Prince or Princess.

None of this suggests immaturity to me. But more someone who accepts his place in the royal family

 

[Lori138]

Why would it be immature? If the discussion is a title for him. And he asked for that title instead of being made the Duke of Cambridge. But his Father told him that he wanted him to have his title when he died.

So instead of insisting on the Higher rank right now he took the lesser one.

He also at the same time announced his kids would not go by HRH or prince and Princess because he wanted them some more normality since it’s unlikely they would be working royals.

I actually like the balance between no title and Prince or Princess.

None of this suggests immaturity to me. But more someone who accepts his place in the royal family

I agree one hundred percent. I think Edward made mature decisions, unlike his brother and nephew.

 

[Countessmeout]

why would you think that Louise would want to be carrying on the DOE scheme and working in that field? Hasnt she taken a job in a garden centre? She may well want her own career doing what she likes to do, whatever that is, and not being tied to royal life

First summer job hardly is a sign of most people's future careers. Like most people start in fast food, very few see that as a dream career. Just because she spent a summer working in a gardening shop doesn't mean any interest.

Who is to say James has any interest? Oh right he is a male so its just assumed he'd want to take over his father's role.

 

[Curryong]

Curryong, the reason that Victoria and Albert didn't give their second son Alfred the Duke of York Title is that She viewed *most * of the Uncles as wicked and scandalous. In great financial debt with lax morals, She wanted to distance and Her and Albert's Children from association with them. They were VERY unpopular with the Public. Continuously mocked.

Her Uncle, Frederick Duke of York, was as scandal plagued as his brothers. Another one of her Uncles, Ernest Duke of Cumberland, who later became the King of Hanover and Victoria waged a VERY bitter battle over Queen Charlotte's ( Ernest's mothers - Victoria's Grandmother) valuable jewels that Victoria ultimately lost. She was in possession of them and had to surrender them to him.
I think the only Uncle She really viewed favourably was King William lV, inspite of Victoria's mothers best intentions to isolate them from each other.

Yes, I agree. The Victorian period is a great interest of mine and has been for forty years. Victoria certainly wanted to separate her family in the public’s mind from that of the ‘wicked uncles’ and I do think that she wanted, with Albert, to write a new clean page of family history.

I believe too that she had been very much influenced as a girl by her mother who did her best to separate herself and her child from her brothers in law. Even the Court of William IV and Queen Adelaide was somewhat distasteful to her. Her child was the direct heir by then though, and so some contact had to be maintained. No love lost between she and William though.

However Victoria not giving her second son the Dukedom of York was a great break with tradition in an age when royals followed precedent far more than they do today. It does still surprise me that she was prepared to replace an old and noble Dukedom with one which had virtually no history to that point.

 

[Prinsara]

However Victoria not giving her second son the Dukedom of York was a great break with tradition in an age when royals followed precedent far more than they do today. It does still surprise me that she was prepared to replace an old and noble Dukedom with one which had virtually no history to that point.

She didn't even make any of her sons Duke of Kent, and that was her own father! (Probably just as well; if Leopold had happened to get it, Victoria would have surely seen a curse at work.)

 

[Curryong]

She didn't even make any of her sons Duke of Kent, and that was her own father! (Probably just as well; if Leopold had happened to get it, Victoria would have surely seen a curse at work.)

Yes, though she gave him Albany AND Clarence, which proved to be rather unlucky titles too, though Clarence was ancient and Albany not. Victoria certainly seemed to like making new royal designations. Connaught had never been used before for a royal Dukedom either.

 

[Prinsara]

Yes, though she gave him Albany AND Clarence, which proved to be rather unlucky titles too, though Clarence was ancient and Albany not. Victoria certainly seemed to like making new royal designations. Connaught had never been used before for a royal Dukedom either.

She only made him Earl of Clarence, though, as she obviously created her grandson Albert Victor Duke while her other grandson Charles Edward was very much alive and not stripped of anything.

At any rate this is getting a bit away from Edward Wessex and family.

 

[LauraS3514]

I think the only Uncle She really viewed favourably was King William lV, inspite of Victoria's mothers best intentions to isolate them from each other.

Later on, she became fond of her uncle Augustus, Duke of Sussex. He was the one who gave her away at her wedding, and she made his not-quite-legal wife Duchess of Inverness in her own right.

 

[Denville]

First summer job hardly is a sign of most people's future careers. Like most people start in fast food, very few see that as a dream career. Just because she spent a summer working in a gardening shop doesn't mean any interest.

Who is to say James has any interest? Oh right he is a male so its just assumed he'd want to take over his father's role.

No I doubt if James wants to be a workng royal but he's the heir to Edwards titles. as for Louise, i meant that taking that particular job seems to show to me that she isn't looking for a tradtional job.. its not the kind of work that upper class or royal young women uusally take up.