Earl and Countess of Wessex and Family Current Events 10: November 2018 - March 2023

[Biri]

Just for curiosity: I wonder if Edward and his siblings (and first cousins) maintain contact with their maternal second cousins? (Bowes-Lyon family)

 

[Countessmeout]

I did see speculation *elsewhere* and that is whether the new title has a remainder that is 'gender-neutral'. That would mean that Lord Severn would eventually get the Edinburgh/Wessex peerage while Lady Louise would get the Forfar one. I doubt it, but an interesting idea.

If it was simply a matter of creating a gender neutral title, they could have waited for the DOE. The DOE will have to be recreated for Edward. It could be recreated with a gender neutral inheritance at the time, allowing James to inherit Wessex and Louise DOE.

It would be great to see the future titles of the family created, like the throne, gender neutral. Like Meghan and Harry's title, considering how much of an advocate that meghan is for women's equality. But sadly the UK doesn't seem to be as advanced thinking as Spain is. It would be nice at least if it was male preference, but even that I doubt.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think wyevale meant to quote the second paragraph of LauraS3514's post #121.

 

[Countessmeout]

I think wyevale meant to quote the second paragraph of LauraS3514's post #121.

Okay Don't know how that has anything to do with my response. They were both referring to posts 'elsewhere'.

My reply would be same to both Laura and Wyevale, that its unlikely at best. And makes little sense as the DOE title will have to be recreated anyways, and it could be made gender neutral. No need for a different title.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Okay Don't know how that has anything to do with my response.

My apologies for the misunderstanding, as the clarification wasn't intended to have anything to do with your response. The was meant for wyevale's partial quotation of Laura's post, which happened to be quoted in yours.

 

[Countessmeout]

My apologies for the misunderstanding, as the clarification wasn't intended to have anything to do with your response. The was meant for wyevale's partial quotation of Laura's post, which happened to be quoted in yours.

Then who was it meant for You pointed at my response. And you were clarifying it for someone. Was the random universe confused by Wyevale

Just for curiosity: I wonder if Edward and his siblings (and first cousins) maintain contact with their maternal second cousins? (Bowes-Lyon family)

At least on a public/social level they would have grown up with some of their cousins around. The queen has been very close to Margaret Rhodes until her death. Margaret's daughter in law Susan is one of her ladies in waiting. Margaret and her children would have been likely a constant in the lives of the queen's kids growing up. Not sure about adult life.

Patrick Anson (son of the queen's first cousin Anne Bowes-Lyon) was a royal photographer including Charles' wedding. His ex-wife has served as an extra lady in waiting to Anne since the 1979. Patrick's sister Elizabeth has been a party planner for the queen for decades so would have interacted with her second cousins there. Elizabeth planned the dinner for the royal family the evening before the wedding of William and Kate for instance.

Many of their second cousins are much older (due to the queen mum being one of the youngest siblings).

 

[rominet09]

Does this new title mean a change in his children's titles ? Now and in the future ?

 

[Thena]

Just for curiosity: I wonder if Edward and his siblings (and first cousins) maintain contact with their maternal second cousins? (Bowes-Lyon family)

At least on a public/social level they would have grown up with some of their cousins around. The queen has been very close to Margaret Rhodes until her death. Margaret's daughter in law Susan is one of her ladies in waiting. Margaret and her children would have been likely a constant in the lives of the queen's kids growing up. Not sure about adult life.

Patrick Anson (son of the queen's first cousin Anne Bowes-Lyon) was a royal photographer including Charles' wedding. His ex-wife has served as an extra lady in waiting to Anne since the 1979. Patrick's sister Elizabeth has been a party planner for the queen for decades so would have interacted with her second cousins there. Elizabeth planned the dinner for the royal family the evening before the wedding of William and Kate for instance.

Many of their second cousins are much older (due to the queen mum being one of the youngest siblings).

Jean Wills, older sister of Margaret Rhodes, served as a lady-in-waiting to Princess Margaret and was very close to the Queen Mother. In the Shawcross biography, there's a note from the Queen to her mother where says "it would make Jean and the two Margarets very happy" if the Queen Mother would use her cane. Jean actually suffered a fatal heart attack at Clarence House while having lunch with her aunt. Given the close relationship, it's very likely she spent time around both the Mountbatten-Windsor and Snowden children.

The Queen Mother was closest in age to her brother David. He was a frequent visitor and actually passed away at Birkhall while visiting his sister. David's children are often listed on guest lists for events like a service of thanksgiving for the Queen's birthday. Additionally, David's daughter-in-law became a lady-in-waiting to the Queen.

 

[LauraS3514]

Does this new title mean a change in his children's titles ? Now and in the future ?

Absolutely no change now, and the only change in the future will be when Edward becomes Duke of Edinburgh. Then James will move up to Earl of Wessex (but not The Earl of Wessex as James' title will only be a courtesy one.) Currently James will eventually inherit all of Edward's titles. Louise will remain Lady Louise for life unless she marries into a higher title. (Unless of course they do end up with the HRH they were entitled to under the 1917 Letters Patent of George V, but that is extremely unlikely...)

 

[Iain]

Forfar ? What for ?

It's traditional for the monarch's children to have three titles, Scots. English and Irish. Although for some reason the English title tends to be the one used by the media, which can very annoying.

Well, that’s very nice. But can someone tell me where the hell The Queen get these titles from? I mean, if your gonna give your child a royal title, make it an attractive one. Forfar? Really?

Forfar is an old title.

I wonder if Viscount Severn will now use Forfar instead as that is the normal practice - to use their father's second title.

As for Edward using it in Scotland what I have found interesting in the CC this year is that they haven't been using secondary titles at all other than for Charles e.g. William and Kate made a visit to Scotland and the CC didn't use Strathearn. The CC hasn't used Inverness for Andrew for about 20 years now. The CC didn't use Carrickfergus for the Cambridges on their recent visit to Northern Ireland. I would therefore expect the Wessexes to still be Wessex only when in Scotland in the CC.

It's a bit annoying that the English titles tend to be used at the expense of the others. In Scotland people tend to just say "Prince William" or "Prince Harry" rather than use the English title.

 

[Biri]

It's traditional for the monarch's children to have three titles, Scots. English and Irish.

And Welsh not?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Does this new title mean a change in his children's titles ? Now and in the future ?

Only in that when Prince Edward is the Duke of Edinburgh, his son could in theory use Earl of Forfar instead of Earl of Wessex as his courtesy title. However, it would be more traditional to use Earl of Wessex as it is the older peerage and the one by which his father was known.

It's traditional for the monarch's children to have three titles, Scots. English and Irish. Although for some reason the English title tends to be the one used by the media, which can very annoying.

The norm is to use the peerage of the highest rank, that is, the dukedom. I suppose the question is why the dukedom is usually an English title.

 

[eya]

Countess of Wessex at the Opening Ceremony of the Commission of the Status of Women in the UN General Assembly today 11 March

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1Y0LaZWwAIU2Xf.jpg

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It's traditional for the monarch's children to have three titles, Scots. English and Irish. Although for some reason the English title tends to be the one used by the media, which can very annoying.



Forfar is an old title.



It's a bit annoying that the English titles tend to be used at the expense of the others. In Scotland people tend to just say "Prince William" or "Prince Harry" rather than use the English title.

The Dukedom of Edinburgh, the Dukedom of Connaught and Strathearn, the Dukedom of Clarence and Avondale, the Dukedom of Cumberland and Teviotdale, the Dukedom of Albany, etc. are examples of royal dukes with a Scottish dukedom as primary title.

But I agree, with the current royals known as Gloucester, Kent, Cornwall, York, Wessex, Cambridge, Sussex, Snowdon and Ulster, the Scots are left with the Duke of Edinburgh and the Earl of St Andrews.

But okay, the plan is to make Edward Duke of Edinburgh in the future.

 

[evolvingdoors]

Countess of Wessex at the Opening Ceremony of the Commission of the Status of Women in the UN General Assembly today 11 March

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1Y0LaZWwAIU2Xf.jpg

So that’s Why the Wessexes weren’t at the commonwealth event today. I kept wondering.



Regarding the title? Honestly Forfar is a far better choice than what Harry got stuck with. Might explain why Harry got stuck with the dumbo name, Her Majesty was saving the better name for her son.

But I do wonder about this second Earldom, I hope it does not mean plans have changed for the Duke of Edinburgh title. IMO Edward and Sophie have proven their worth and deserve such the honor.
Granted though, it is a unique honor! I don't think any other royal child in modern history has been granted another title when not on their wedding day.

 

[Princess Larisa]

Countess of Wessex at the Opening Ceremony of the Commission of the Status of Women in the UN General Assembly today 11 March
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1Y0LaZWwAIU2Xf.jpg

Court Circular 10th March:
The Countess of Wessex this afternoon departed from Heathrow Airport, London, for the United States of America.
Mr. Alexander Stonor and Mrs. Angus Galletley are in attendance.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

So that’s Why the Wessexes weren’t at the commonwealth event today. I kept wondering.



Regarding the title? Honestly Forfar is a far better choice than what Harry got stuck with. Might explain why Harry got stuck with the dumbo name, Her Majesty was saving the better name for her son.

But I do wonder about this second Earldom, I hope it does not mean plans have changed for the Duke of Edinburgh title. IMO Edward and Sophie have proven their worth and deserve such the honor.
Granted though, it is a unique honor! I don't think any other royal child in modern history has been granted another title when not on their wedding day.

What is wrong with the title Earl of Dumbarton (1675) in comparison with the title Earl of Forfar (1661)? Both have roughly the same anciennity. The first creations of both earldoms went to a nobleman of the clan Douglas. I fail to see why the one is a "dumbo name" and the other not.

In 1987 Princess Anne was bestowed the title Princess Royal. The first one was Mary of Nassau née Stuart, The Princess of Orange, The Princess Royal (1642). Before Anne only six princesses were bestowed that title. None of them got it on the wedding day.

 

[Iain]

And Welsh not?

No, and I suspect that is because England has always regarded Wales as part of England despite it being an older country.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Here's the official notice from the British Monarchy Website: https://www.royal.uk/title-earl-wessex. No additional subsidiary titles are mentioned.

Thanks for the confirmation - thought that would be the case, though wanted to double check!

 

[Princess Larisa]

Court Circular 11th March:
The Earl of Wessex, Trustee, The Duke of Edinburgh's Award, this morning held a Meeting.

The Countess of Wessex this morning attended a Breakfast Meeting at the Residence of the United Kingdom Permanent Representative to the United Nations (Her Excellency Dame Karen Pierce) in New York City, United States of America.

Her Royal Highness later attended the Opening Ceremony of Commission on the Status of Women at the United Nations Headquarters, 405 East 42nd Street, New York City.

The Countess of Wessex this afternoon attended the United Kingdom's Non-Governmental Organisation's Reception given by the United Kingdom Permanent Representative to the United Nations at the United Kingdom Mission to the United Nations, One Dag Hammarskjold Plaza, 885 Second Avenue, New York City.

Her Royal Highness later received Ms. Esther Dingemans (Director, the Dr. Mukwege Foundation) and Ms. Elizabeth Bohard (Co-Director, Nadia's Initiative) at the Residence of the United Kingdom Permanent Representative to the United Nations.

The Countess of Wessex afterwards received Ms. Pramila Patten (United Nations Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Sexual Violence in Conflict) at the United Nations Headquarters.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105227314072354816

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105129994056069121

https://hrhthecountessofwessex.word...y-of-csw-at-the-uns-headquarters-in-new-york/

 

[evolvingdoors]

What is wrong with the title Earl of Dumbarton (1675) in comparison with the title Earl of Forfar (1661)? Both have roughly the same anciennity. The first creations of both earldoms went to a nobleman of the clan Douglas. I fail to see why the one is a "dumbo name" and the other not.

In 1987 Princess Anne was bestowed the title Princess Royal. The first one was Mary of Nassau née Stuart, The Princess of Orange, The Princess Royal (1642). Before Anne only six princesses were bestowed that title. None of them got it on the wedding day.

Because to me personally one sounds silly and the other only slightly so.
And when the title was first created is of little meaning to me when it gets recreated.

I was referring to titles such as: duke & earl, and so on; the Princess Royal title while lovely is a unique creation specific to elder daughters of the monarch only, and is not a title that will be passed on to Anne’s daughter. Given it’s uniqueness overall, and the fact that at times a future princess royal may be born while her predecessor is still be alive, I do not consider it as part of the title granting I noted in my previous post.
So Princess Royal title aside, has there ever been - mainly in modern time- a second title (duke, earl and such) granted post marriage to a monarch child? (One that was not received because the forebear died, like with George V becoming PoW.

 

[Lilyflo]

has there ever been - mainly in modern time- a second title (duke, earl and such) granted post marriage to a monarch child? (One that was not received because the forebear died, like with George V becoming PoW.

Interesting question so I looked it up but couldn't find any (perhaps someone else can). Here's the list of titles:

Queen Victoria's younger sons (given titles pre-marriage)
Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Ulster, and Earl of Kent
Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn, Earl of Sussex
Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, Earl of Clarence and Baron Arklow

King Edward VII had no younger sons during his reign

King George V's younger sons (given titles pre-marriage)
Prince Albert, Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killarney
Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, Earl of Ulster, and Baron Culloden
Prince George, Duke of Kent, Earl of St Andrews, and Baron Downpatrick

King George VI had no sons

Queen Elizabeth II's younger sons (given titles on marriage)
Prince Andrew, Duke of York, Earl of Inverness, and Baron Killyleagh
Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex

So Prince Edward has been given fewer titles than any recent younger sons of monarchs. Perhaps that's why the Queen wanted to give him another one at age 55.

 

[Duke of Leaside]

Interesting question so I looked it up but couldn't find any (perhaps someone else can). Here's the list of titles:

Queen Victoria's younger sons (given titles pre-marriage)
Prince Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Ulster, and Earl of Kent
Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught and Strathearn, Earl of Sussex
Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany, Earl of Clarence and Baron Arklow

King Edward VII had no younger sons during his reign

King George V's younger sons (given titles pre-marriage)
Prince Albert, Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killarney
Prince Henry, Duke of Gloucester, Earl of Ulster, and Baron Culloden
Prince George, Duke of Kent, Earl of St Andrews, and Baron Downpatrick

King George VI had no sons

Queen Elizabeth II's younger sons (given titles on marriage)
Prince Andrew, Duke of York, Earl of Inverness, and Baron Killyleagh
Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex

So Prince Edward has been given fewer titles than any recent younger sons of monarchs. Perhaps that's why the Queen wanted to give him another one at age 55.

Don't forget Prince Edward was also given Viscount Severn at the same time as Earl of Wessex on his wedding day in 1999.


I found one instance of what I believe you were talking about above:

The Prince of Wales (the future King Edward VII) was made Earl of Dublin September 10, 1849.

 

[Lilyflo]

Thanks
Yes I should have added Viscount Severn as a subsidiary title - I just wrote that one from memory & forgot he had it!

Re: the Prince of Wales - I wasn't looking at the eldest sons & the poster "evolvingdoors" posed a question related to additional titles given post-marriage. It's an interesting find though.

 

[Curryong]

As far as Harrys subsidiary title is regarded it's in the way the word is pronounced. I have never heard of the town of Dumbarton being spoken of as Dumb Barton. In my experience it's always been pronounced DumBarton, with the emphasis on the barton. Therefore there's nothing 'dumb' about it as far as I can see.

 

[Lilyflo]

As far as Harrys subsidiary title is regarded it's in the way the word is pronounced. I have never heard of the town of Dumbarton being spoken of as Dumb Barton. In my experience it's always been pronounced DumBarton, with the emphasis on the barton. Therefore there's nothing 'dumb' about it as far as I can see.

Yes it's dumBARTon & there's also Dumfries pronounced dumFREECE. I'm just laughing now at the notion some people might think it sounds like Dumb Fries.

 

[iceflower]

.

The Palace shared a copy of the speech the Countess of Wessex has held at the Commission on the Status of Women at the UN in New York City yesterday:


** royal.uk: The Countess of Wessex gives a speech at the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW), UN, New York **


Two more photos:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 **



And a copy of her speech at the Commonwealth Day Reception at the Joint Office of the Commonwealth:


** royal.uk: The Countess of Wessex’s speech at the Commonwealth Day Reception at the Joint Office of the Commonwealth **

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Will Edward be 1st Earl of Forfar or 3rd Earl of Forfar?

 

[JR76]

Will Edward be 1st Earl of Forfar or 3rd Earl of Forfar?

He is the First Earl of the second creation of the title.
The numbering starts when a title is created or recreated and isn't inherited from an eventual earlier creation.

 

[Princess Larisa]

Court Circular 12th March:
The Earl of Wessex, Trustee, The Duke of Edinburgh's Award, this morning attended a Meeting at Gulliver House, Madeira Walk, Windsor, Berkshire.

The Countess of Wessex this morning attended a Breakfast Meeting on women, peace and security at the Residence of the United Kingdom Permanent Representative to the United Nations (Her Excellency Dame Karen Pierce) in New York City, United States of America.

Her Royal Highness later attended a Conference on peace, security and human rights at the United Nations Headquarters, 405 East 42nd Street, New York City.

The Countess of Wessex afterwards attended a Roundtable Discussion on the "Future of Women's Leadership" at the United Nations Headquarters.

Her Royal Highness this afternoon attended a Lunch with the Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Co-Chairman, All-Party Parliamentary Group on Women, Peace and Security) at the United Kingdom Mission to the United Nations, One Dag Hammarskjold Plaza, 885 Second Avenue, New York City.

The Countess of Wessex later attended a Meeting with the Dr. Denis Mukwege Foundation at the United Nations Headquarters.

Her Royal Highness this evening attended a Reception to mark Commonwealth Day, 800 2nd Avenue, New York City.

The Countess of Wessex later departed from John F. Kennedy International Airport, New York City, for the United Kingdom.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105485724969848838

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105499825511034880

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105505422616784896

https://twitter.com/x/status/1105508813971619842

https://hrhthecountessofwessex.wordpress.com/2019/03/13/hrhs-visit-to-new-york-day-2/

Court Circular 13th March:
The Earl of Wessex, Chairman of the Board of Trustees, The Duke of Edinburgh’s International Award Foundation, this morning held a Meeting.

The Countess of Wessex this morning arrived at Heathrow Airport, London from the United States of America.
Mr Alexander Stonor and Mrs Angus Galletley were in attendance.

Court Circular 14th March:
The Earl of Wessex this afternoon visited Bradford Synagogue, 7A Bowland Street, Bradford, and was received by Her Majesty's Lord-Lieutenant of West Yorkshire (Mr. Edmund Anderson).

His Royal Highness, Patron, later attended a Dinner at the Headquarters of Northern Ballet, Quarry Hill, Leeds.

The Earl of Wessex, Patron, Northern Ballet, this evening attended a performance of "Victoria" at Leeds Grand Theatre, 46 New Briggate, Leeds.