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  #4741  
Old 01-09-2022, 10:48 AM
Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I wonder what source was relied on for the Mirror's report. There seems to be a trend recently of royal household members talking on anonymity to the press about the Duke of York.

Another such report quotes an anonymous courtier who claims that Queen Elizabeth has never questioned her son's innocence with regards to Virginia Giuffre's charges.



Carolyn Andriano, a victim of Jeffrey Epstein who testified under her first name as a witness for the prosecution at Ghislaine Maxwell's sex trafficking trial, has given an interview to the Daily Mail. She did not receive a fee for the interview.

Part of the interview discusses Virginia Giuffre, who recruited Ms. Andriano for Jeffrey Epstein (the article quotes extensively from her courtroom testimony about those events), something for which Ms. Andriano thinks Ms. Giuffre should be prosecuted. Ms. Andriano says that in 2001, when they were teenagers, her then-friend Virginia told her she had had dinner and sex with Prince Andrew in London and showed her (Carolyn) the now-infamous photograph of Virginia, Andrew, and Ghislaine Maxwell.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rk-London.html

I didn't open the DM link, but, if I am not mistaken based on another report I saw in the Express, Ms. Andriano also said Virginia Roberts at the time bragged about having had sex with Prince Andrew and, according to Ms. Andriano, "she was not upset about it" and actually thought "it was pretty cool", i.e. no indication that she had been assaulted or that what she did with Andrew had been coercive in any sense.

To be fair, as a 17-year-old, Virginia Roberts might not have had a sufficiently clear understanding of how she was being used/abused by Epstein and Maxwell at the time. It is not inconceivable that she was "cool" with the life she was living as she was probably given money, gifts, luxury housing, most likely drugs, and got to hang out with famous people, even royalty. Many young girls who are in that kind of business are tricked into feeling like she did. And it is not uncommon either for girls like her to recruit other girls on behalf of their "madam" so I find Ms. Andriano's account to be credible. I just don't think it will make much difference in this civil lawsuit specifically.
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  #4742  
Old 01-09-2022, 11:03 AM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
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ITA with every word you posted.

And I do take VRG's youth at the time of her association with Epstein into consideration.

What I can never understand is the 20 year delay in filing charges and the decision to go after PA in particular, whom she is on record as describing as being a gentleman toward her even though he grossed her out physically.
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  #4743  
Old 01-09-2022, 11:14 AM
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He is well known, rich and outside the US, so she may reckon she has a better chance of getting a pay off from him, since he was SUPPOSED to be at least publcily behaving like a gentleman..
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  #4744  
Old 01-09-2022, 11:17 AM
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This brings to mind something that I've heard about happening in a lot of cases of kidnapping and abductions. Stockholm syndrome. It's defined as "feelings of trust or affection felt in many cases of kidnapping or hostage-taking by a victim toward a captor." As the victim becomes more and more adjusted to the life presented by their "captors", they may even begin to enjoy the life that they've become used to. From the looks of things that the reports what we've had, Giuffre's life within the Epstein fold had all the glitz and glamor and the perks that the majority of people can only read about. This doesn't take away from the fact that Giuffre *was* a victim of two perverse individuals whatsoever.

Andrew, on the other hand, I have a hard time believing that there is anything, anywhere. that could be construed as actually being an act or a deed that labels him criminally responsible for. Sure, the man may be totally and completely morally and ethically bankrupt when it comes to his friendship with Epstein/Maxwell. The man may be arrogant with an attitude of supreme entitlement. Sure, the man may have had a penchant for sleeping with girls young enough to be his daughter. These are the reasons actually why Andrew's credibility and his reputation have tanked. It's not because of a lawsuit brought on by Giuffre that if he wins, his "good name" will be cleared and restored.

Win or lose, there is no coming back from this for Andrew. None whatsoever.
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  #4745  
Old 01-09-2022, 11:21 AM
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The problem would be proving that Andrew knew that human trafficking was going on. That goes into the operation of his mind. It’s hard to prove that
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  #4746  
Old 01-09-2022, 12:11 PM
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I dotn think he did, but I suspect that is because of his callous arrogant indifference towards ordinary people.. If he did have some idea, I supsect he'd have put it out of his mind because it wasn't his concern.
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  #4747  
Old 01-09-2022, 12:13 PM
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In a civil trial, does VRG's side even need to prove that?

As for most other of the other big names that have popped up in relation to Epstein...Clinton, Trump, Dershowitz...I have no doubt that they knew these women and girls were self trafficked.

But it would not surprise me if Andrew believed Epstein's harem was simply a perk for being the rich powerful swell guy he was. And that his "lady friends" felt awed and honored to bask in the glow of a real life genuine PRINCE like himself.

Yes. I do believe he is THAT stupid, that entitled and that unaware of anything outside his Prince Andrew bubble.
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  #4748  
Old 01-09-2022, 12:20 PM
Osipi's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
But it would not surprise me if Andrew believed Epstein's harem was simply a perk for being the rich powerful swell guy he was. And that his "lady friends" felt awed and honored to bask in the glow of a real life genuine PRINCE like himself.

Yes. I do believe he is THAT stupid, that entitled and that unaware of anything outside his Prince Andrew bubble.
I second that opinion. In a world where he doesn't carry money and has minions that "settle things" for him and makes travel arrangements and open doors for him, why would Andrew be concerned with how someone else's household operated?
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  #4749  
Old 01-09-2022, 12:51 PM
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We can't know what Andrew did or didn't know, but isn't he supposed to have invited Jeffrey Epstein to Beatrice's 18th birthday party? Surely he wouldn't have let him anywhere near Beatrice, Eugenie and their friends if he'd had any idea what was going on.
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  #4750  
Old 01-09-2022, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
We can't know what Andrew did or didn't know, but isn't he supposed to have invited Jeffrey Epstein to Beatrice's 18th birthday party? Surely he wouldn't have let him anywhere near Beatrice, Eugenie and their friends if he'd had any idea what was going on.
Why not? An "entitled prince" could possibly be of the mindset that *his* caliber of people in his family just don't rank with the minions that surround other people's households. Andrew would possibly be of the mind that his daughters and her friends were too high of a caliber for Epstein even to begin to think of them as anything else because they're "princesses".

If there's one thing I believe Andrew has had down pat since childhood is the idea that some people are just so far above the rest that they're "untouchable" and deserve and warrant deference.
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  #4751  
Old 01-09-2022, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Why not? An "entitled prince" could possibly be of the mindset that *his* caliber of people in his family just don't rank with the minions that surround other people's households. Andrew would possibly be of the mind that his daughters and her friends were too high of a caliber for Epstein even to begin to think of them as anything else because they're "princesses".


If there's one thing I believe Andrew has had down pat since childhood is the idea that some people are just so far above the rest that they're "untouchable" and deserve and warrant deference
.

If that is indeed the case, I wouldn't blame Andrew for feeling/ thinking like that and I would not equate it to arrogance or a sense of entitlement. The British monarchy is pretty much one of the last "imperial monarchies" left and was still even much more so in the early years of the Queen's reign and when her children were born. In candid terms, that is simply the mindset Andrew and his siblings would have grown into and pretty much the way the courtiers and social acquaintances would have treated them. It may be changing now for the younger generations (Prince George's generation for example), but for Andrew or Charles, or maybe even William's generation, that would be a natural attitude in my humble opinion.

That of course does not excuse Andrew's poor judgment to associate himself with shady people like Epstein or Maxwell, nor his inability to control his lust and his willingness to sleep around with young girls, if that proves to be true in th end.
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  #4752  
Old 01-09-2022, 06:37 PM
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In all fairness to Andrew he did not confine himself only to very young women post divorce. He had several relationships with women in his age group from what I remember.

Other than VRG, I cannot recall him having any predictions for barely legal females.

But one is all it takes.
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  #4753  
Old 01-09-2022, 07:56 PM
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Or perhaps he just didn't believe Epstein was actually guilty? People have trouble believing this about people they were friendly with. My own parents knew, in theory, that a "friend" of theirs has been, for years, an informer to State Security (everyone who has lived in a socialist state knows what this is) but they couldn't quite *feel* it. And they were people who had no privileges under the regime like Andrew does. There was no doubt that "our" man has worked for State Security, that he had told on them and their circle of friends and still, it was years after the fact that the affected people could actually believe it had happened - and that's with everyone being actively afraid of State Security which had a way of ruining lives and had informers everywhere.

I can imagine it was even harder for someone who grew up in privilege like Andrew to believe the problem was real. And honestly, why would Ms Guiffre tell on Epstein when she was clearly pleased to be with Andrew? And he isn't the greatest observer. Would he really bother noticing that something was off?
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  #4754  
Old 01-09-2022, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I didn't open the DM link, but, if I am not mistaken based on another report I saw in the Express, Ms. Andriano also said Virginia Roberts at the time bragged about having had sex with Prince Andrew and, according to Ms. Andriano, "she was not upset about it" and actually thought "it was pretty cool", i.e. no indication that she had been assaulted or that what she did with Andrew had been coercive in any sense.

To be fair, as a 17-year-old, Virginia Roberts might not have had a sufficiently clear understanding of how she was being used/abused by Epstein and Maxwell at the time. It is not inconceivable that she was "cool" with the life she was living as she was probably given money, gifts, luxury housing, most likely drugs, and got to hang out with famous people, even royalty. Many young girls who are in that kind of business are tricked into feeling like she did. And it is not uncommon either for girls like her to recruit other girls on behalf of their "madam" so I find Ms. Andriano's account to be credible. I just don't think it will make much difference in this civil lawsuit specifically.
I understand your point but there is no excuse for Ms. Giuffre recruiting a 14 year old child in this case. At 17, Ms. Giuffre may have been seduced into a luxurious lifestyle and now sees that it was wrong. However, in many areas of the world, including the US and UK, 16 is the age of consent. Ms. Giuffre was old enough to know that a 14 or 15 year old child should not be in a relationship with an adult.

It seems that Ms. Giuffre did it for the money, which seems to be a recurring theme. I am fast losing the sympathy I had for her.
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  #4755  
Old 01-10-2022, 02:33 AM
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I was on Giuffree's side till she started asking for money. A victim of violence deserves justice but money will not change anything or help anyone else other than Giuffree's bank account.
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  #4756  
Old 01-10-2022, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Magnolia471 View Post
I was on Giuffree's side till she started asking for money. A victim of violence deserves justice but money will not change anything or help anyone else other than Giuffree's bank account.
What other recompense can be made to her? Epstein is dead, Maxwell is in prison. I think she deserves something....
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  #4757  
Old 01-10-2022, 06:08 AM
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Yep - she should have gotten money and she did. I have no issue her getting money - but I would have less suspicions if she had brought this suit against Prince Andrew when she was in court with Epstein.
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  #4758  
Old 01-10-2022, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
What other recompense can be made to her? Epstein is dead, Maxwell is in prison. I think she deserves something....
I agree , but it is a little bit unsettling that she seems to be in this mostly for money and not for justice per se. Maybe I am wrong, but I am convinced at this time that, if Andrew had agreed to a settlement as Giuffre’s lawyers apparently suggested repeatedly to him, this civil lawsuit would never have been brought.
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  #4759  
Old 01-10-2022, 07:47 AM
Majesty
 
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but that's hwat a civil lawsuit is for, to get monetary compensation. However I suppose Andrew realises that if he made a voluntary settlment it woudl be an admission of guilt.
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  #4760  
Old 01-10-2022, 11:36 AM
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Just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that a victim is not entitled to financial compensation. However, I now question whether her own actions have negated her claims of victimhood. Other Epstein victims recruited other girls for Maxwell and Epstein but my understanding is the vast majority of them didn't. If the allegation against Ms. Giuffre is true (and the litigious Ms. Giuffre is not suing the alleged victim), I would say that Ms. Giuffre's behavior was worse than Andrew's. With respect to the current law suit, how traumatized could Ms. Giuffre have been if she was helping Maxwell recruit even younger girls into the trafficking ring?

There are good reasons for statutes of limitations in civil cases. In a criminal case, the defendant starts out presumed innocent and it is up to the prosecution to prove guilt. The defendant doesn't have to affirmatively defend him or herself. All they have to do is prevent the state from proving a case beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is a civil suit, Andrew doesn't have the advantage of having to force Ms. Giuffre to prove what she is saying is the truth. A civil defendant should have the ability to defend him or herself. After more than 20 years, Andrew does not have access to relevant records and witnesses. Ms. Giuffre's still technically have teh burden of proof but the allegations are so sensitive that unless he can clearly rebute her account, he is going to lose.

The more than a million dollars that she apparently received from Epstein and Maxwell, is far more than most sex trafficking victims will ever receive. According to Ms. Giuffre's victim, Ms. Giuffre enjoyed the alleged encounter with Andrew and she was 17 (above the age of consent in each of the jurisdictions where the alleged encounter took place). How much money does a victim who became an accomplice deserve?
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