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  #4521  
Old 09-20-2021, 04:03 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I have no idea if Andrew is guilty or not, I wasn’t there. However the fact that he has been so awkward with the authorities, refusing to assist in enquiries and avoiding being served papers at all costs certainly doesn’t look good!

With other words: the Duke has to roll out the red carpet for every possible alleged victim stepping forward with a claim ?


Of course the Duke (and his legal team) let the "other party" work.
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  #4522  
Old 09-20-2021, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisa View Post
Quote:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50449339


EM: … has made allegations against you. She says she met you in 2001, she says she dined with you, danced with you at Tramp Nightclub in London. She went on to have sex with you in a house in Belgravia belonging to Ghislaine Maxwell, your friend. Your response?

PA: I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady, none whatsoever.

EM: You don't remember meeting her?

PA: No.

Aaah that terrible interview! For me that horrific interview convinced me that he was guilty to some extent.
He absolutely denied meeting her [...]
I am in agreement with Gawin that "I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady, none whatsoever" is not, under examination, an "absolute denial" of meeting her (even if the Duke almost certainly wanted the audience to believe it was an absolute denial).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alisa View Post
Quote:

EM: She says she met you in 2001, she dined with you, she danced with you, you bought her drinks, you were in Tramp Nightclub in London and she went on to have sex with you in a house in Belgravia belonging to Ghislaine Maxwell.

PA: It didn't happen.

EM: Do you remember her?

PA: No, I've no recollection of ever meeting her, I'm almost, in fact I'm convinced that I was never in Tramps with her. There are a number of things that are wrong with that story, one of which is that I don't know where the bar is in Tramps. I don't drink, I don't think I've ever bought a drink in Tramps whenever I was there.
Then the Tramps discussion he clearly contradicts himself by saying there are "a number of things wrong with that story". In order to say a story is wrong that means you must remember the story and remember details to say that they are wrong.
As a generalization, that is not correct. For instance, if I were to tell a story of you and I having dinner at Buckingham Palace on the evening of (to choose a date at random) April 3, 2020, I imagine you would truthfully deny my story even if you did not remember the details of your dinner on the evening of April 3, 2020.

Regarding the Duke of York's claim about drinking, if he was truthful in stating he was a teetotaler, then it is plausible that he would remember that he did not drink at any social event without remembering any particular event.
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  #4523  
Old 09-20-2021, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I have no idea if Andrew is guilty or not, I wasn’t there. However the fact that he has been so awkward with the authorities, refusing to assist in enquiries and avoiding being served papers at all costs certainly doesn’t look good!
A lot of that could also be because Andrew feels like he has to stand loyal to his friend, Ghislaine, and won´t say anything against the woman that the authorities really want him to spill the beans about. Remember how staunchly he defended his friendship with Epstein. Right. Um... When it comes to Andrew, he is a dark horse and hard to figure out.
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  #4524  
Old 09-21-2021, 04:00 PM
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I turned on the television this morning to catch a bit of news expecting anything but this: "Prince Andrew served with sexual assault lawsuit after papers sent to US lawyer".

US District Judge Lewis Kaplan approved a request from Virginia Giuffre's legal team to seek alternative means of serving a lawsuit against Andrew. Kaplan, approving the request Thursday evening, said that "service of the defendant's United States counsel is reasonably calculated to bring the papers served to the defendant's attention, regardless of whether his US counsel is 'authorized' to accept service on his behalf."

The fact this made national morning headline news on CNN (not entertainment or lifestyle) in the US is a pretty big deal.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/us/pr...ntl/index.html

"The US court documents, seen by CNN, show the legal papers were delivered to the duke's lawyer, Andrew B. Brettler, at the law firm of Lavely and Singer in Los Angeles on Monday morning at 9:22 a.m. local time.

The court document also shows legal papers being delivered to the Royal Courts of Justice in London on Monday."
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  #4525  
Old 09-21-2021, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
… When it comes to Andrew, he is a dark horse and hard to figure out.

It’s not hard to figure out that he has terrible taste in (at least some of) his friends! “A (person) is known by the company he keeps, and also by the company from which he is kept out.” …Grover Cleveland
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  #4526  
Old 09-21-2021, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
It’s not hard to figure out that he has terrible taste in (at least some of) his friends! “A (person) is known by the company he keeps, and also by the company from which he is kept out.” …Grover Cleveland
Great quote and is very true in assessing someone's character and demeanor as a man but I'm still not ready to convict Andrew in the court of public opinion as anything else but having bad taste and being naturally arrogant and entitled. Don't need a lawsuit to figure that part out.

As for the papers being served to Andrew's US attorney (in LA no less), I think with following this case and how it progresses and how everyone reacts to things, we're going to get a glimpse into the world of international law here.
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  #4527  
Old 09-21-2021, 05:07 PM
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I certainly don’t want to appear to defend Andrew, however I think Ms Giuffre should be suing all the men she was made to have sex with — if not, it appears that she is just going after Andrew for the $$.JMHO
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  #4528  
Old 09-21-2021, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suztav View Post
I certainly don’t want to appear to defend Andrew, however I think Ms Giuffre should be suing all the men she was made to have sex with — if not, it appears that she is just going after Andrew for the $$.JMHO

I also think it's totally without risk to sue Andrew, the other men could be more dangerous to name. Or maybe they've already paid up?
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  #4529  
Old 09-21-2021, 06:56 PM
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As has been discussed here before, Virginia has evidence in the shape of a photo in her legal team’s possession, that she and Andrew were together at the same time at Ghislaine’s house, though Andrew stated that he could not remember her.

Maybe if the two of them had been photographed at a party or on neutral ground it might have been different. But that photo backs up Virginia’s story that at the very least she was known to both Ghislaine and Andrew. There’s no sign of any others there, bar the person that took the photo.


Virginia probably does not have that sort of proof about other men in her possession. Though it was said that Epstein may have had hidden recording and video equipment in his properties it’s not likely that Virginia or any other employees have them.
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  #4530  
Old 09-22-2021, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suztav View Post
I certainly don’t want to appear to defend Andrew, however I think Ms Giuffre should be suing all the men she was made to have sex with — if not, it appears that she is just going after Andrew for the $$.JMHO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
I also think it's totally without risk to sue Andrew, the other men could be more dangerous to name. Or maybe they've already paid up?
Andrew is an easy and obvious target as he doesn't have the ability to be anyone other than who he is, HRH Prince Andrew and it's not like he can even retire from being a working royal as the media keep trying him in absentia. Other of the rich and famous 'name's originally found seem to have disappeared into the mist and fog of time but I do seem to remember the complainant saying Andrew was nice way back then. Now he has a target on his back.

As a matter of interest, do any of our American based members know if any court proceedings such as this have come before the courts?

https://www.newsweek.com/every-celeb...-files-1521985

https://www.insider.com/famous-peopl...ourtney%20Love.
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  #4531  
Old 09-22-2021, 05:45 AM
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I think, perhaps, one reason that some of the names of the rich and famous seem to have disappeared into a fog is probably due to being interrogated and checked out and it was found that they were *not* part of Epstein's secret life.

Epstein was well known in the business field and I'm sure that the *majority* of people that met and mixed with the man had no clue what was going on in his "other" life. Kind of like a Jeckyll and Hyde thing.

It's kind of hard sometimes to remember that this sordid life of Epstein's wasn't the only "life" he had. The man was known to be paranoid and he wouldn't be careless to just let anyone in on what's at his house.
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  #4532  
Old 09-22-2021, 07:14 AM
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But weren’t many of the names listed as associates of Epstein who used the services of these girls people who had flown to Epstein’s notorious island where many sexual encounters were alleged to have taken place? The pilot who flew these men (and some women) there had documentation that they were flown by him in Epstein’s private plane.
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  #4533  
Old 09-22-2021, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think, perhaps, one reason that some of the names of the rich and famous seem to have disappeared into a fog is probably due to being interrogated and checked out and it was found that they were *not* part of Epstein's secret life.

Epstein was well known in the business field and I'm sure that the *majority* of people that met and mixed with the man had no clue what was going on in his "other" life. Kind of like a Jeckyll and Hyde thing.

It's kind of hard sometimes to remember that this sordid life of Epstein's wasn't the only "life" he had. The man was known to be paranoid and he wouldn't be careless to just let anyone in on what's at his house.
But it seems that his house was full of crude sexual images. Hard to imagine that his guests didn't know how he thought and what his lifestyle was....
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  #4534  
Old 09-22-2021, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
But weren’t many of the names listed as associates of Epstein who used the services of these girls people who had flown to Epstein’s notorious island where many sexual encounters were alleged to have taken place? The pilot who flew these men (and some women) there had documentation that they were flown by him in Epstein’s private plane.
Oh right, there's those manifests. It doesn't necessarily point to being in the "inner circle". A lot could be business associates that just gave Epstein's "sweethearts" a stink eye and refused those kinds of offers and just got down to business.

A lot of "could be" out there and all we have to go on is what is reported in the media.
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  #4535  
Old 09-22-2021, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Oh right, there's those manifests. It doesn't necessarily point to being in the "inner circle". A lot could be business associates that just gave Epstein's "sweethearts" a stink eye and refused those kinds of offers and just got down to business.

A lot of "could be" out there and all we have to go on is what is reported in the media.
Epstein's lifestyle was clearly a crude one where he supplied girls for his associates and was keen on sex and none too refined in his approach towards it... Visitors to his house said that there was a lot of vulgar sexual imagery in the decor. I think anyone who had more than a very casual acquantance with him was aware of how his mind work and what he liked doing...
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  #4536  
Old 09-22-2021, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Epstein's lifestyle was clearly a crude one where he supplied girls for his associates and was keen on sex and none too refined in his approach towards it... Visitors to his house said that there was a lot of vulgar sexual imagery in the decor. I think anyone who had more than a very casual acquantance with him was aware of how his mind work and what he liked doing...
With what I know about Epstein, he used to be very cautious around people and that leads me to think that Epstein would have to build a bit of trust with anyone before including that person in his personal life.

Case in point. Erotic art doesn't necessarily point to a person having a "dark" side. The late Prince Henrik of Denmark had quite the collection himself and I don't thing there's any kind of an indication that the man had a "dark" side reflected by his art collection.

https://newsbeezer.com/norwayeng/pri...-on-penis-art/

Good to see you Denville, I'd wondered where you got yourself off to.
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  #4537  
Old 09-29-2021, 12:00 PM
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It will be interesting to see if there is any evidence of the other alleged dates and times of sexual encounters could be further investigated. For example, was Andrew even in a location when the alleged activity occurred. Can the additional incidents be proven false. That’s different than proving true - but if they can’t be proven false that won’t look good.
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  #4538  
Old 09-29-2021, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by vulture View Post
It will be interesting to see if there is any evidence of the other alleged dates and times of sexual encounters could be further investigated. For example, was Andrew even in a location when the alleged activity occurred. Can the additional incidents be proven false. That’s different than proving true - but if they can’t be proven false that won’t look good.
My memory is out to lunch right now but without it, I seem to recall that once upon a time those investigating the allegations wanted to get a hold of Andrew's movements from his RPOs. It obviously didn't happen but in my way of thinking, that would be a *definite* way to prove where Andrew was probably just about any time. I would think Andrew's itinerary would be on file with the Metropolitan Police.

I'm sure someone remembers better than I do today.
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  #4539  
Old 09-29-2021, 12:16 PM
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There must be logs of where his police protection officers were that night he supposedly was at Tramps. It can't be difficult to find them surely.
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  #4540  
Old 09-29-2021, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
There must be logs of where his police protection officers were that night he supposedly was at Tramps. It can't be difficult to find them surely.
Perhaps the problems with that lies with the Met Police refusing to release the logs? I really don't know but that would make sense. In a lawsuit, the logs could be subpoenaed but as no criminal charges are filed against Andrew, the Met Police has the right to refuse? Just thinking out loud here.
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