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  #4361  
Old 08-16-2021, 03:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
I thought she was claiming assault in London, in which case she'd have been over the age of consent. If she'd been under 16, it would be statutory rape even if she wasn't forced, but she was 17 at the time.


A US court can't force an English (there aren't UK courts as such, as the Scottish system is separate) court to comply with its rulings, but it would look very bad if an English court disregarded an American ruling. Disregarded a ruling in Iran or North Korea would be one thing, but the US is a close ally with a judicial system which is respected here. What I'm not sure about is if damages would be enforceable if the ruling was based on her having been under 18.
The Complaint pleads three occasions: Maxwell's flat in London where the photo was taken, Epstein's New York mansion, and Epstein's private island in the US Virgin Islands.
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  #4362  
Old 08-16-2021, 04:56 AM
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The age of consent in UK, NY and US Virgin Island is all 16 at the time.
So I guess the case has to be made that she was forced into the arrangement. However it is on record the exchange of funds for all of these arrangements.
The question will be asked if you are paid and accept payment for the first times (which weren't Andrew) are you then in employment and accepting your terms of employment. Yes - it is horrible, but prostitutions is an employment. Can a case be made to counter her argument of been trafficked, then?
She has noted that she was fearful to leave and scared for her life. But there seems to have been many opportunities to inform law and border control which wasn't done.
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  #4363  
Old 08-16-2021, 06:11 AM
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Andrew isn't - how should I say it more delicately - the sharpest knife in the drawer. Then again, I'm terrible at recognizing faces. I have no memory for them. Last year, I failed to recognize an old classmate who hasn't changed this much in the less than 20 years since I last saw her after seeing her every day for 5 years. If you asked me, I could genuinely say I've never met her. However, I wouldn't actually do it because I know I memorize names, not faces. Almost everyone can fool me into not saying I don't know them because it's possible that I do. In this vein, I can really believe Andrew believing that he doesn't know her... initially. Saying so was a terrible idea, though. It sounds ridiculous, which is why I don't say I don't know people who I technically know I *have* met, even if I can't recall their faces.

I can't believe there was a lawyer who told him it was OK to say so.
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  #4364  
Old 08-16-2021, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
The age of consent in UK, NY and US Virgin Island is all 16 at the time.
So I guess the case has to be made that she was forced into the arrangement. However it is on record the exchange of funds for all of these arrangements.

If "it is on record the exchange of funds for all of these arrangements", which honestly I wasn't aware of, then it is even more surprising that Prince Andrew has no recollection of them ever happening.
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  #4365  
Old 08-16-2021, 06:41 AM
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Quick clarification - not from Andrew - from Epstein. Epstein was paying them.
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  #4366  
Old 08-16-2021, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post


I make no comment about the issue of collecting on any civil judgment in these circumstances, but as for how it could get any worse for Andrew if he loses the suit, it could get way, way worse. If he continues to deny the allegations and gives sworn testimony to that effect, or - maybe worse - admits in evidence that he did have sex with Virginia knowing she had been groomed by Maxwell and Epstein but didn't see anything wrong with it and didn't have any concerns about issues of consent - and he is not accepted as a witness of truth and is found to be liable, he will have absolutely no reputation left and will have to live in hiding or risk being pelted with rotten eggs. And if he is ordered to pay Virginia a substantial amount of money as damages but hides behind British laws and his mummy and refuses to pay anything in satisfaction of the judgment, he will just prove himself to be a despicable cad, and his family could be very seriously damaged too depending on their reaction.

I, too, hope Virginia is telling the truth because a person should not be accused as Andrew has if there is no substance to the claim.
Andrew should have stayed away from Epstein and Ghislaine in the first place. There was bound to be big trouble for him. If he had been warned about them, he did not take this warning seriously apparently.
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  #4367  
Old 08-16-2021, 08:35 AM
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Prince Andrew's lawyers will naturally try to get the law suit dismissed by arguing that he had diplomatic immunity in 2001 as Special Representative for International Trade and Investment.
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  #4368  
Old 08-16-2021, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moran View Post
Andrew isn't - how should I say it more delicately - the sharpest knife in the drawer. Then again, I'm terrible at recognizing faces. I have no memory for them. Last year, I failed to recognize an old classmate who hasn't changed this much in the less than 20 years since I last saw her after seeing her every day for 5 years. If you asked me, I could genuinely say I've never met her. However, I wouldn't actually do it because I know I memorize names, not faces. Almost everyone can fool me into not saying I don't know them because it's possible that I do. In this vein, I can really believe Andrew believing that he doesn't know her... initially. Saying so was a terrible idea, though. It sounds ridiculous, which is why I don't say I don't know people who I technically know I *have* met, even if I can't recall their faces.

I can't believe there was a lawyer who told him it was OK to say so.
It was stupid of Andrew to say Anything... but it IS possible that at least at first, he genuinely had no recollection of her, she was just one pretty girl he might have had a fling with...or met briefly...
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  #4369  
Old 08-16-2021, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire View Post
The age of consent in UK, NY and US Virgin Island is all 16 at the time.
So I guess the case has to be made that she was forced into the arrangement. However it is on record the exchange of funds for all of these arrangements.
The question will be asked if you are paid and accept payment for the first times (which weren't Andrew) are you then in employment and accepting your terms of employment. Yes - it is horrible, but prostitutions is an employment. Can a case be made to counter her argument of been trafficked, then?
She has noted that she was fearful to leave and scared for her life. But there seems to have been many opportunities to inform law and border control which wasn't done.
This is the first I have read/heard that these young women were being paid and accepting money from Epstein in exchange for services renfered to himself and his friends.

And I admit that it changes my perception of their situation. There are photos of groups of them whooping it up on the French Riviera with Naomi Campbell among others. Why would it not have been reasonable for Andrew to assume (before Epstein's first arrest) that the group of attractive young women around this man were simply paid hangers on?

I know I risk a rhetorical beating for saying this but I find it hard to believe that Virginia and many of the others were not free to leave. Why could they not have approached an embassy or law enforcement for help? Anyone of them could simply gotten on an airplane and gotten away.

Which is exactly what Ms. Roberts eventually did. When she was in Australia and met a new boyfriend who eventually became her husband Giuffre, she simply picked up the phone and told Epstein and Ghislaine that she would not be returning.

With the exception of the cases of the very young girls of 14, I honestly don't understand. And I have tried.
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  #4370  
Old 08-16-2021, 09:41 AM
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It's been mentioned that Andrew didn't deny knowing Virginia but said he didn't recall her. That's true but then he contradicted himself later on in the interview. Emily Maitlis reemed off every detail of what VR's said about their night in London together to which Andrew said "It didn't happen" and he said that about every accusation put to him. Now he either dosn't recall the event or he does. To categorically say it didn't happen when you previously said you don't remember if it did is a big contradiction. No wonder his lawyers don't want him talking to her legal team they would pull him apart.
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  #4371  
Old 08-16-2021, 09:48 AM
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When did Virginia first begin to work for Epstein/Ghislaine? If she was only 15 or 16 when it all started it would be only too easy, I would imagine, to cajole and persuade vulnerable and rather lost young girls into working for them. They could emphasise the cash benefits, the travel, supposedly glamorous lifestyle and hook these teenagers in.
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  #4372  
Old 08-16-2021, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
It's been mentioned that Andrew didn't deny knowing Virginia but said he didn't recall her. That's true but then he contradicted himself later on in the interview. Emily Maitlis reemed off every detail of what VR's said about their night in London together to which Andrew said "It didn't happen" and he said that about every accusation put to him. Now he either dosn't recall the event or he does. To categorically say it didn't happen when you previously said you don't remember if it did is a big contradiction. No wonder his lawyers don't want him talking to her legal team they would pull him apart.
Is the DoY an arrogant, stupid, entitled jerk? Yes. He always has been apparently.

Is he capable of any sort of violence against women, of which rape is the ultimate manifestation? Did he personally force himself on Ms. Roberts knowing that she was unwilling and disgusted by him?

No. I simply don't believe that.
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  #4373  
Old 08-16-2021, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire View Post
The age of consent in UK, NY and US Virgin Island is all 16 at the time.
So I guess the case has to be made that she was forced into the arrangement. However it is on record the exchange of funds for all of these arrangements.
The question will be asked if you are paid and accept payment for the first times (which weren't Andrew) are you then in employment and accepting your terms of employment. Yes - it is horrible, but prostitutions is an employment. Can a case be made to counter her argument of been trafficked, then?
She has noted that she was fearful to leave and scared for her life. But there seems to have been many opportunities to inform law and border control which wasn't done.
I'm sure you are correct about the age of consent (i haven't researched the history of current statutes) which makes this whole situation more confusing. She was a 17 year old Florida resident when she was first procured in Florida.

The age of consent in Florida was 18. Epstein violated U.S. Federal law by transporting her to other jurisdictions, even if the age of consent was 16 in those jurisdictions. I am not an expert on criminal law but I think that the Mann Act only applies to the person who actually transported the child for the purpose of prostitution.

If this is correct, that would explain the change from "Andrew was nice to me" to "Andrew forcibly raped me". I don't know Prince Andrew but rapists usually assault more than one person. It would seem that if Prince Andrew were inclined to forcibly assault women, there would be allegations from other women.

It's hard to feel sorry for him but there is no way he can ever clear his name. This reaffirms that famous people need to be very careful of their associations.
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  #4374  
Old 08-16-2021, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
When did Virginia first begin to work for Epstein/Ghislaine? If she was only 15 or 16 when it all started it would be only too easy, I would imagine, to cajole and persuade vulnerable and rather lost young girls into working for them. They could emphasise the cash benefits, the travel, supposedly glamorous lifestyle and hook these teenagers in.
I think she was 17 but it still would have been very easy to lure her with cash and the glamourous lifestyle that Epstein was offering.
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  #4375  
Old 08-16-2021, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Is the DoY an arrogant, stupid, entitled jerk? Yes. He always has been apparently.

Is he capable of any sort of violence against women, of which rape is the ultimate manifestation? Did he personally force himself on Ms. Roberts knowing that she was unwilling and disgusted by him?

No. I simply don't believe that.
I agree with you, VR said in an interview I saw that he was actually quite gentlemanly with her and there was no question of physical violence BUT he must have been aware that the situation was odd. This random teenager travelling around with Epstein. Even the dimest of people would surely wonder if this young girl was being coerced in some way into doing what she was doing and if there was even the slightest doubt he shouldn't have had sex with her. Andrew would have to have been the least curious person on Earth not to have enquired about who she was and why she was there.
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  #4376  
Old 08-16-2021, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
I agree with you, VR said in an interview I saw that he was actually quite gentlemanly with her and there was no question of physical violence BUT he must have been aware that the situation was odd. This random teenager travelling around with Epstein. Even the dimest of people would surely wonder if this young girl was being coerced in some way into doing what she was doing and if there was even the slightest doubt he shouldn't have had sex with her. Andrew would have to have been the least curious person on Earth not to have enquired about who she was and why she was there.
Agreed. But to be fair, this is more than an issue of morality. If Andrew had sex with with a girl that young, he is a horrible man. But this civil suit and the attempts to drag him into the criminal case take this to another level.
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  #4377  
Old 08-16-2021, 12:44 PM
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yep - I agree. And point of argument I feel the say about celebrities who date/ marry models/actresses of 18 when they are in their 40's and 50's.

A friend of mine noted that if we take Epstein and Andrew out of this - say this is a business man who has traffic a number of girls (over age of consent) from another country into the US and they were been paid to have sex with his friends. Would those girls be allowed to sue the people they had sex with or the man who coerced her into it and was paying her? The clientele can only be charged with a misdemeanor of patronizing a prostitutes and if the prostitute is underage, a felony.

Afraid to say that I wonder if Andrew's best defense might be to say that the accuser was willing and knowingly, a prostitute. She was accepting money - well above what would be expected to be received for an untrained mossier. And depending on her time with Epstein she might have long known what was going on.
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  #4378  
Old 08-16-2021, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by US Royal Watcher View Post
I think she was 17 but it still would have been very easy to lure her with cash and the glamourous lifestyle that Epstein was offering.
There also was the fear factor. I think Epstein and Maxwell would perhaps warn the young women if they "talked" or tried to leave. I saw some documentaries about them and they were very ruthless in their dealings. I don't think they gave these young women much cash lest they have enough money to try to escape. Probably an "allowance" of sorts.
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  #4379  
Old 08-16-2021, 02:14 PM
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There also was the fear factor. I think Epstein and Maxwell would perhaps warn the young women if they "talked" or tried to leave. I saw some documentaries about them and they were very ruthless in their dealings. I don't think they gave these young women much cash lest they have enough money to try to escape. Probably an "allowance" of sorts.
I'm sure threats were made after the girls were sucked in but I've read that Epstein often gave them hundreds of dollars. Many of these girls didn't have very much so it was a lot of money. I don't think any of the girls lived with Epstein. They went home after being assaulted and were not physically forced to return but they had been groomed, intimidated and may have felt they had no choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Claire
Afraid to say that I wonder if Andrew's best defense might be to say that the accuser was willing and knowingly, a prostitute. She was accepting money - well above what would be expected to be received for an untrained mossier. And depending on her time with Epstein she might have long known what was going on.
It depends on the goal. if the goal were to avoid a judgment, that would be his best defense but it would make his reputation worse - if there were possible. If the goal is to make this go away, his best bet would be to settle without admitting wrong doing.

If he is innocent and believes that he has to make a stand, he could fight it but will lose in the court of public opinion, no matter what the deciion is.
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  #4380  
Old 08-16-2021, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
A friend of mine noted that if we take Epstein and Andrew out of this - say this is a business man who has traffic a number of girls (over age of consent) from another country into the US
I am afraid "age of consent" and "age from where selling sex is legal" are two different things! This is one of the points in the Prince Andrew case: Were the girls paid, by whom and did Prince Andrew knew of such dealings?

There is no such thing like an "underage belle du jour"! It is illegal!
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