The Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein Controversy 1: 2010-2022


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It's CANCEL CULTURE and we are living in the thick of it. I am all for calling out malignant predators where they exist, and holding them accountable.

But careers can be ended and lives destroyed now because..." Mr X told me I looked lovely in that color, or winked his eye, or held the door open for me when I walked in.

I deem it sexist and offensive. It has caused me lasting emotional distress and suffering."

I am only slightly exaggerating.


I agree.

In the 1980's and 1990's, I had horribly sexist male bosses. They would say terrible things to me in front of people who reported to me.

I got them back. Practical jokes that were weeks in the making. Also, some schemes that got me more money. Granted, I was a confident person from a comfortable background with a father who was very supportive.

If I waited 20 years and then sued for sexist treatment, it wouldn't be satisfying. I got them back in a timely manner that may have prevented them from telling other female employees what they told me.
 
No, the friendship with Epstein and Maxwell and appalling lack of remorse and ongoing sordid legal issues and Newsnight idiocy and self-making into persona non grata are all facts, not allegations.

None of these are crimes and misdemeanours. If we go this way, we can couple a lot of people to unsavoury friends, to questionable characters, to poor judgements and to stubborness.

For so far the Duke of York not even had a traffic fine but hey, let us hang him high, nail him to the cross. And eeermmmm.... the eventuality of the Duke not at all being convicted? It is all way too premature.
 
I am sure that prostitution of a girl under 18 is not allowed in GB either... - and surely not in the USA, I think. This makes me wonder, if prostitution of a minor constitutes some kind of sexual abuse too, and falls under rape... But I have not the faintest idea about the American penal code.

And we can be somewhat sure, that the Prince was not in love... So, Ms. Maxwell, already sentenced, was there and the person, which took the photo (Epstein?).

And when the pic was taken of the Prince and the minor - This does not look like a rockstar with a groupie... It looks like the Virginia girl was pimped out!

I doubt Prince Andrew paid anyone to have sex with Virginia Roberts (assuming they had sex at all, which Prince Andrew denies, or at least does not remember). I don't know UK law, but I assume prostitution is not characterized unless there is some kind of monetary transaction, or, at least, some compensation in the form of goods, favors or services. And certainly there is nothing in the law that says that you have to be "in love" to sleep with someone else who is over the age of consent.

The Metropolitan Police looked into the affair and concluded there was no criminal case to be pursued there as far as UK law is concerned. You may argue that the British police might not be sufficiently impartial when the person under investigation happens to be a British prince, but I have no reason to distrust their judgment. Since Prince Andrew has not been charged with any crime either in the UK or in the US, I don't know why questions of criminal liability are being raised in a discussion pertaining to the current civil lawsuit that Prince Andrew is facing in the New York court.
 
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It is the trafficking aspect of the sexual transaction that might be criminal. If he knew she was being trafficked, and went ahead and had sex with her, he mihgt be guilty of an offence. However I dont think it occurred to him.
 
It is the trafficking aspect of the sexual transaction that might be criminal. If he knew she was being trafficked, and went ahead and had sex with her, he mihgt be guilty of an offence. However I dont think it occurred to him.

Agreed, but again my point was that British police looked into it, most likely also considering the possibility of Prince Andrew having been an accessory to human trafficking, and concluded there was no criminal case to be pursued against him.

A criminal investigation in the US could conceivably have ended with a different conclusion, but, in any case, and maybe the US lawyers can clarify that point, I don't think a criminal case can be brought against Andrew now as he would be protected by the statute of limitations (note: I may be wrong).
 
Agreed, but again my point was that British police looked into it, most likely also considering the possibility of Prince Andrew having been an accessory to human trafficking, and concluded there was no criminal case to be pursued against him.

A criminal investigation in the US could conceivably have ended with a different conclusion, but, in any case, and maybe the US lawyers can clarify that point, I don't think a criminal case can be brought against Andrew now as he would be protected by the statute of limitations (note: I may be wrong).

I suppose they did, but the girl was over hte legal age in the UK.. and Im not sure if she had raised the trafficking issue.... but long past sexual transgressions are very difficult to prove anyway....
 
He had sex with the same young girl in multiple countries and could not deduct she was trafficked? I know he isn’t the brightest tool in the shed, but is he really that stupid?
 
Also him dragging Beatrice into his drama was utterly irresponsible.

Funny, when he said this in the interview it was the inly moment I thought'ok, maybe it's true, because no father would be as stupid to mention his own child in auch a mess', but after all we talk about Andrew :lol:
the rest fo the interview his body language, the contradictions aso no doubt he is guilty but mentioning Beatrice? Well, stupid Andrew I bet.
 
He had sex with the same young girl in multiple countries and could not deduct she was trafficked? I know he isn’t the brightest tool in the shed, but is he really that stupid?

why would he deduce that? He doesnt pay much heed to people outside his own circle. If Virginia was around, in hte UK or in the US, she was working for/with Epstein and was willing to sleep with him. Why would he think much about what her exact job was or her relations with Epstein?
 
He had sex with the same young girl in multiple countries and could not deduct she was trafficked? I know he isn’t the brightest tool in the shed, but is he really that stupid?

It is not that simple. For a criminal case to be built, I suppose it would have to be proven that Andrew was either an assistant or an instigator to her being trafficked. Again, based on the available evidence, the Metropolitan Police (that is, the Greater London Territorial Police Force for the US readers) seems to have concluded that there was no criminal case there (or at least not one that was likely to lead to a conviction, I would imagine). No criminal charges have been brought against Prince Andrew in the US either and I don't think there will be any now. I am convinced that he got away on that count unless there is some unexpected new development.
 
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I think that having sex with her if he knew she had been trafficked would be an offence.. though Im not sure. However I think that Andrew simply didnt know because he didn't care. He expects that there will be girls who are willing to sleep wiht him, there are girls who will do his nails, and there are servants who will look after him. He doesnt pay any attention to them....
 
He had sex with the same young girl in multiple countries and could not deduct she was trafficked? I know he isn’t the brightest tool in the shed, but is he really that stupid?


It's not like the girl was chained up in the cellar and dragged out to accommodate Andrew, though.
She seemed willing (actually pleased) to sleep with him. So why would he think she was trafficked?

I doubt the idea ever entered his mind.
 
I mind the timing more than the acting thing. I mean, were these charities meant to stay without an acting patron indefinitely? Two years is long enough. And I do agree about Andrew's appalling judgment and the disastrous interview reflecting badly on the BRF.

The thing is, actions were taken immediately after the last court news and so it looks like the BP acted not on Andrew's actions but the court news which weren't Guilty. Guilty, Guilty, Off with His Head.

I mean, what did Andrew do in the interim between the news breaking out and the hour of the decision being announced? He conducted the behavior people object to literally years ago... and at the time, it wasn't considered bad enough to act on.

So forgive me if I see this as what we call "comrade's court". It was a thing real jurists sneered at. Basically, it was everyone saying whatever they wanted about anyone else and the accused only had the right to talk after the "comrade's court" (made up by no jurists) has already proclaimed them guilty in the presence of everyone who wanted to come and could jeer and insult all they wanted. They could talk but not to defend themselves, just do some good and sound self-critique. And yes, I know he was given the right to talk and he blundered very badly. But it wasn't considered bad enough for the BP then. Now, when he didn't do anything to make it worse, came this.

So yes, I'll keep thinking it's comrade's court and the BP bowing to public pressure, as well as being afraid to look like they were blaming a victim. And I'm saying it as someone who believes this should have been settled long ago and doesn't mind the action itself. How long were Andrew's charities supposed to be left without a patron? How long would they have been left without a patron if the court had arrived at a different decision?

I concur that the measures were long overdue, and you make a very good point in that the delayed timing clearly indicates that the Duke of York's objectionable conduct, by itself, was not the final straw which motivated the Queen to act decisively.

However, I don't think the timing was provoked by public perceptions of guilt or victim-blaming. No news emerged over the last few days that would cause the Duke of York to appear more guilty or more victim-blaming than he already did. What transpired over the last few days was that it became apparent a civil trial was anticipated in the near future (because the judge ruled against dismissal on technical grounds and then both parties' representatives indicated a desire to proceed to trial rather than immediately settle out of court). And the consensus of British media analysts was that the prospect of a dragged-out series of depositions and courtroom testimonies, which are certain to generate new (and, from the royals' point of view, embarrassing) headlines and revelations, spurred Queen Elizabeth to at last distance the monarchy officially.
 
No, the friendship with Epstein and Maxwell and appalling lack of remorse and ongoing sordid legal issues and Newsnight idiocy and self-making into persona non grata are all facts, not allegations.
True but having siad that, there does seem to be an idea now that noone can make up for misdeeds in their past. Even if they are genuinely sorry or at least trying to do better for the future.
 
Since Prince Andrew has not been charged with any crime either in the UK or in the US, I don't know why questions of criminal liability are being raised in a discussion pertaining to the current civil lawsuit that Prince Andrew is facing in the New York court.

Well, the civil lawsuit is based on an underlying damage to Virginia Giuffre caused by a criminal act!

I believe this act was according to Virginia Giuffre, that Andrew forced himself in some kind of rapish act onto the Virginia girl.

But this was said by her - and she can say what she wants, she is an juristical amateur. It is not needed that she exactly knows what she is saying.
 
Hasn't he already backtracked on that though? So what was the point in dragging her into it? Now if this goes to trial, she will 100% be called to give a statement. And that is all in him for directly naming her.



And how is Beatrice going to remember something that supposedly happened 20 years ago? Unless it was a very memorable birthday party at Pizza Express I doubt she remembers it at all, let alone whether her father was there or not.
 
That interview was just ridiculous. Why did he say that? Who remembers going to Pizza Express on a particular date 20 years ago? Most people can't remember what they ate two weeks ago, or even two days ago. If he'd just said that he had no recollection of meeting Virginia Giuffre, but that he went to a lot of events and met a lot of people so it was possible he'd met her but didn't remember, that would have been perfectly plausible. He really has made things more difficult for himself.

I doubt that Beatrice will be hauled into court just to be asked whether or not she remembers going to Pizza Express.
 
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As ordered by the judge, each of the parties has submitted their requests for international judicial assistance in order to obtain evidence from overseas.

The Duke of York's lawyers are seeking to question Virginia Giuffre's husband Robert Giuffre and her psychologist Judith Lightfoot, both of whom are residents of Australia.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60119368/68/1/giuffre-v-prince-andrew/
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60119368/68/2/giuffre-v-prince-andrew/

Virginia Giuffre's lawyers are seeking to question Shukri Walker, who told the press she witnessed the Duke of York at the club Tramp, and Robert Olney, a former equerry to the Duke of York whose name appeared in Jeffrey Epstein's phone book. Both are residents of the United Kingdom.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60119368/67/1/giuffre-v-prince-andrew/
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60119368/67/2/giuffre-v-prince-andrew/

In spite of their previous suggestions to the media, Ms. Giuffre's lawyers are not seeking to depose any members of the British royal family.



Hasn't he already backtracked on that though?

I don't think the Duke of York has publicly discussed his alibi since the 2019 interview.
 
That interview was just ridiculous. Why did he say that? Who remembers going to Pizza Express on a particular date 20 years ago? Most people can't remember what they ate two weeks ago, or even two days ago. If he'd just said that he had no recollection of meeting Virginia Giuffre, but that he went to a lot of events and met a lot of people so it was possible he'd met her but didn't remember, that would have been perfectly plausible. He really has made things more difficult for himself.

I doubt that Beatrice will be hauled into court just to be asked whether or not she remembers going to Pizza Express.

I think htat it is plausible.. as ANdrew said it was unusual for him to go to a place like Pizza Express
 
I think we have to remember an important point - Andrew is innocent until proven guilty and the case is being taken as a civil matter not a criminal case. The London Met Police have looked into allegations about in the UK and dropped the case.

At times it feels that people are saying Andrew is guilty because there is plenty of evidence he is not a particular pleasant person. That is not the same as being found guilty of a crime.

Don't get me wrong, I can't stand him at all, he is clearly a man with no morals, no backbone, no common sense and a pampered, pompous Prince to boot.

Should he have gone to see Epstein after Epstein was found guilty and served prison time for procuring prostitution from a child? Absolutely not. It shows Andrew still happily met him knowing he was in effect a pedophile. Is that a crime? No.

Should he have given that disastrous Newsnight interview showing how little sympathy he had and how pompous and entitled he is? Hell no. Again not illegal.

Should he have consorted with rich, glitzy billionaires happy to pay for his air fares and put him up in luxury lifestyle? It is pretty morally corrupt of him but sadly not illegal.

All these things tell us what sort of person Andrew is. They may even make it seem more likely he could potentially have done what is alleged. But it doesn't make him guilty. I'm sure the Court will do what is needed and find him guilty if indeed he is. Either way I'm perfectly happy that he hopefully never has an official role in the RF ever again and has been deprived of those titles and status he once held so dear.
 
I think we have to remember an important point - Andrew is innocent until proven guilty and the case is being taken as a civil matter not a criminal case. The London Met Police have looked into allegations about in the UK and dropped the case.

At times it feels that people are saying Andrew is guilty because there is plenty of evidence he is not a particular pleasant person. That is not the same as being found guilty of a crime.

Don't get me wrong, I can't stand him at all, he is clearly a man with no morals, no backbone, no common sense and a pampered, pompous Prince to boot.

Should he have gone to see Epstein after Epstein was found guilty and served prison time for procuring prostitution from a child? Absolutely not. It shows Andrew still happily met him knowing he was in effect a pedophile. Is that a crime? No.

Should he have given that disastrous Newsnight interview showing how little sympathy he had and how pompous and entitled he is? Hell no. Again not illegal.

Should he have consorted with rich, glitzy billionaires happy to pay for his air fares and put him up in luxury lifestyle? It is pretty morally corrupt of him but sadly not illegal.

All these things tell us what sort of person Andrew is. They may even make it seem more likely he could potentially have done what is alleged. But it doesn't make him guilty. I'm sure the Court will do what is needed and find him guilty if indeed he is. Either way I'm perfectly happy that he hopefully never has an official role in the RF ever again and has been deprived of those titles and status he once held so dear.



I completely agree. I can’t stand Andrew, I have been a Royal watcher since the 1990s and he has always appeared arrogant and more out of touch than his siblings. He very obviously has no morals, no sense of remorse and not a hint of understanding of how this is perceived by the public. I am very happy that the RF has removed his status, titles and patronages and that in doing so he will never have a way back to public life as he has caused serious damage to the family and this could not continue to happen.

However, Andrew has also not been charged or found guilty of any criminal offence and has still to face trial for a civil case for which a judgement has to made. I do feel there has to be a balance before our desire for punishment ends up becoming more damaging to the Royal Family in the long term particularly if in the end to this case it becomes a settlement.

All this talk of removing homes, banishing to remote islands and even more ridiculously stopping Andrew, Beatrice and Eugenie going to a Mother/Grandmothers funeral or Uncles coronation etc if it became a reality has the potential to lead to very resentful family members. Resentful family members don’t always do wise things - do we really need more books or interviews in future years because people were stopped from properly paying respects to their Grandmother or Mother. As much as the public and tabloids love the optics of banishment now they will also love the feeding frenzy in 10 years of an interview with a crying family member who was not allowed to say goodbye.
 
I still believe that Andrew will attempt to settle this case. Yes, I understand that The Queen and Firm have distanced themselves from him and are referring to him as a "private individual', but at the end of the day, they are tied together as Family. No matter how much they insist that Andrew will pursue the case against him on his own terms. I mean, what else could they do to minimize the bad PR ?

We are now entering the Discovery Phrase, where Virginia's legal Dream Team will demand that Andrew answer Interrogatories. Requiring answers IN writing from Andrew, about questions her Lawyers have about the lawsuit.

Then there is the document request, so in things like Andrew maintaining he has a 'peculiar condition' that prevents him from sweating, he will be asked to provide medical proof of this. Then there will be requests for Subpoenas..... Which could be ANYTHING.

Then, Deposition, in which Andrew will be asked in person questions under oath. With a Court Reporter present. *If* it gets this far, Andrew would probably be Videotaped.
Mind you, look how well he did with his last interview !

So, in Virginia's Team will be able to get at all kinds of information, from confidential information about Andrew's 'personal life' to the all important 'mother lode' of his secretive " financial resources' and the personal wealth of a member of the Royal Family. Prince Andrew.
God only knows what more damaging and salacious matters could inadvertently be revealed. Who might they call as witnesses too ? Sarah ? Another non to bright loose cannon.
Never ending weekly drip, drip, drip of indecent and damaging information about Prince Andrew's activities coming out during the Queens Platinum Jubilee. Yeah, that's a great look. And if it is leaked, that documents obtained during Discovery reveal Andrew net worth ( as has been reported ) 40 -50 Million, that will further inflame the Public.

I firmly maintain that behind the scenes, Andrew's Attorneys are being told to do EVERYTHING possible to bring this to settlement as soon as possible.
Virginia's laywers will do everything in their power to diminish Andrew and win a big Settlement, for her and them. That is the crux of the matter.
I know She wants an apology, and admission of guilt, but it really is about money and shaming Andrew.
So Andrew's financial resources are fair game. One way or another.
If this goes forward, Ugly doesn't even begin how dirty it can and will get.
 
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Some YouGov polls concerning the Duke of York conducted during the past week on Britons aged 18+.


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/arts/survey-results/daily/2022/01/13/2c010/2

To what extent, if at all, do you think the ongoing case involving Prince Andrew and Virginia Giuffre is damaging the monarchy?

Very much 30%
Somewhat 40%
Not very much 13%
Not at all 4%
Don’t know 13%


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/01/13/2c010/3

Do you think Prince Andrew should or should not resign from all his remaining military positions?

He should 62%
He should not 11%
Don't know 27%


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/01/14/7482f/2

Prince Andrew will no longer use the title HRH (His Royal Highness). Do you think this was the right or wrong thing for him to do?

This was the right thing to do 82%
This was the wrong thing to do 6%
Don't know 13%


https://yougov.co.uk/topics/arts/survey-results/daily/2022/01/13/2c010/1

How closely are you following the story about allegations made against Prince Andrew by Virginia Giuffre?

Very closely 7%
Fairly closely 35%
Not very closely 27%
I am aware of the stories but am not following them 25%
I am not aware of the stories 6%


There were no sharp differences in opinion in terms of region, gender, politics, age, or social grade. But when it came to awareness, there was a sharp difference in terms of age: 17% of 18-24 year olds and 8% of 25-49 year olds were unaware of the stories, compared to only 1% of 50+ year olds.
 
Andrew's attorneys won't be sitting on their hands while this discovery of their client is taking place.

They are reportedly preparing to ask some potentially very embarrassing questions of their own, directed at VRG's psychiatrist among others.

She has also made a demand for a written apology from Prince Andrew to accompany any settlement, and just yesterday the DM reported that she has vowed to "destroy the life" of the guy.

My hunch is that she resents the whammy put on her by Alan Dershowitz and his team when she went after him and was forced to back down for reasons that are unclear to me. She is determined that the same won't happen with Prince Andrew
:sad:

No. Jubilee or not I don't think this case will settle any time soon.
 
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Would someone mail Andrew a reality check or perhaps start slipping brain food into his diet? Does the man really want to involve himself in a US court jury trial that will, most likely, end up being the grandest three ring circus that has ever come to NYC in decades. What a jury trial will most definitely do is increase Andrew's fame and notoriety as a royal that behaved badly no matter if he wins or loses in the battle. He's already lost the war if you ask me. Silly, silly man.

Perhaps this is a good reason why such pains have been taken lately to assure the public that Andrew is in no way connecting this dog and pony show to the UK monarchy, its Queen and its "Firm". We *know* the Queen, Charles and William and whomever decide on the workings of the monarchy want the world to know that Andrew is in this on his own to sink or swim. No help from the royal galleries or the royal funds or the royal relatives. Now watch Ghislaine Maxwell apply to discredit Andrew's statement that they weren't close friends to get time off her sentence and "tell all". Make that a five ring circus if that happens. :D

I believe Andrew is on a path to make even a greater fool out of himself than he already is. :sad:
 
Well, he has nothing to lose so might as well dive in. The court of public already convict him guilty and to settle it out of court can be seen as him admitting it. If he can win the trial, he may still able to save a bit of his reputation (though I doubt he can return to public life again) or at least he can also drag her with him because I'm sure his lawyers will do whatever it is to discredit her.

It will be ugly.
 
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