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  #1861  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
The black book has been opened . There are 16 numbers for Andrew with palace landlines and 18 for Fergie.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-Branson.html

Why do you need that many phone numbers? As for the people in the book they are probably talking to their lawyers and crisis management teams right now.
I was thinking the same thing. Even for a friend, that many numbers is excessive. You don't need nearly 20 numbers per person, unless Andrew and Sarah are both incredibly prone to smashing phones...
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  #1862  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
The black book has been opened . There are 16 numbers for Andrew with palace landlines and 18 for Fergie.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-Branson.html

Why do you need that many phone numbers? As for the people in the book they are probably talking to their lawyers and crisis management teams right now.

There was an earlier report that Epstein had 17 or 18 numbers for Trump, also.
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  #1863  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
Why do you need that many phone numbers?
For famous/rich/high profile people I'd expect a batch of numbers:
* Multiple landlines for multiple residences
* Mobile phone numbers that change to avoid hackers
* Phone numbers of various staff
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  #1864  
Old 08-14-2019, 06:41 PM
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I would also think that if Epstein knew these people over a long period of time, its possible that some of the numbers are no longer in service due to moving, change of cell phone providers, change of employment/business offices and other multiple reasons why people change their phone numbers or acquire new ones.

That must be some hefty "little black book" he had there.
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  #1865  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:47 PM
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I see Andrew and Sarah are trying to get away from it all. Don’t think it will work though. This is extremely serious-
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/972448...mpression=true
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  #1866  
Old 08-14-2019, 08:11 PM
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We'll just have to wait and see what develops as far as Andrew is concerned with the ongoing investigation of Epstein's lifestyle. Its my understanding that they're going to be going after anyone that had aided and abetted Epstein in his crimes. Those that were "friends" and perhaps had contact with some of the girls, I believe would have to be sued by the girls themselves in civil court. I believe Andrew would fall into the latter category. He may have to answer some questions or he may not. As I said, we'll see what develops.

What would have to happen is that there is evidence found that shows Andrew's involvement with girls that removes any reasonable doubt that it happened. Allegations at this point, made by any of the girls, will be looked at as "he said/did, she said/did" and without evidence, its pure hearsay. Who knows though what Epstein has locked away as "collateral" against his "friends".

I do have to admit that I had to cringe at Epstein's taste in art in his Manhattan townhouse and although it may have been done as a joke or as something silly, I bet Bill Clinton isn't overly amused right now by it. Not one little bit amused.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/epstei...-in-townhouse/
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  #1867  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
What would have to happen is that there is evidence found that shows Andrew's involvement with girls that removes any reasonable doubt that it happened. Allegations at this point, made by any of the girls, will be looked at as "he said/did, she said/did" and without evidence, its pure hearsay. Who knows though what Epstein has locked away as "collateral" against his "friends".

I do have to admit that I had to cringe at Epstein's taste in art in his Manhattan townhouse and although it may have been done as a joke or as something silly, I bet Bill Clinton isn't overly amused right now by it. Not one little bit amused.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/14/epstei...-in-townhouse/
The New York post is a tabloid owned by Rupert Murdoch, an Australian who started the whole thing
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  #1868  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:18 AM
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Ahhhh... thanks! Shows you what I know about what NY papers are reputable or not doesn't it.
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  #1869  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:33 AM
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This whole Andrew and Epstein connection is major and extremely serious royal scandal that will (sadly) rock the House of Windsor. Although you wouldn’t be able to tell with the lack of outrage. Recently, I’ve seen more outrage and focus on made up bogus things, but not so much on this situation.
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  #1870  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:04 AM
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Allegations, rumors, hearsay and the like do not a scandal make. If evidence is provided that Andrew, indeed, has dirt on his hands, then it will be time to start the outrage and see how it affects the House of Windsor and Andrew himself.

As of now, Andrew has denied all the allegations against him. Remember, innocent until proven guilty.
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  #1871  
Old 08-15-2019, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Allegations, rumors, hearsay and the like do not a scandal make. If evidence is provided that Andrew, indeed, has dirt on his hands, then it will be time to start the outrage and see how it affects the House of Windsor and Andrew himself.

As of now, Andrew has denied all the allegations against him. Remember, innocent until proven guilty.
Yeah, but this is a major situation involving a senior member of the royal family, Osipi. I mean, Breaking News, serious. Much more serious than the stuff folks have been pretending to be outraged about. We’re talking about major sex crimes with girls who were underage at the time and was treated as sex slaves for very powerful people. The lack of outrage and the sounds of crickets on the royal front is appalling. There’s pictures out there, too.
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  #1872  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:26 AM
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I have to disagree with you, Dman, on this. I've seen the picture of Virginia with Andrew and it doesn't in the least show any signs of anything "sleazy" going on there. You can find that kind of pose in a million selfies or photos of people whether royal, celebrity or just ordinary people and even with pets.

How can it be a major situation if we don't have a clue just how majorly involved Andrew even was with Epstein's girls? We just don't know and to my knowledge, up until now, there's not been a shred of concrete evidence or a case levied against Andrew. If any of that ever happens, let me know if I missed it and I'll join you in stating its a major scandal.

The investigation that is ongoing now is looking to perhaps indict co-conspirators and buddies and pals that aided and abetted in the actual sex trafficking charges and there's been no mention that Andrew ever had anything to do with that at all. They're trying to track down those that were at the top of the pyramid in this ring of perversion.

I'll stick to the adage that was misattributed to Jack Webb, star of the old Dragnet series. "Just the facts, ma'am."
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  #1873  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I have to disagree with you, Dman, on this. I've seen the picture of Virginia with Andrew and it doesn't in the least show any signs of anything "sleazy" going on there. You can find that kind of pose in a million selfies or photos of people whether royal, celebrity or just ordinary people and even with pets.

How can it be a major situation if we don't have a clue just how majorly involved Andrew even was with Epstein's girls? We just don't know and to my knowledge, up until now, there's not been a shred of concrete evidence or a case levied against Andrew. If any of that ever happens, let me know if I missed it and I'll join you in stating its a major scandal.

The investigation that is ongoing now is looking to perhaps indict co-conspirators and buddies and pals that aided and abetted in the actual sex trafficking charges and there's been no mention that Andrew ever had anything to do with that at all. They're trying to track down those that were at the top of the pyramid in this ring of perversion.

I'll stick to the adage that was misattributed to Jack Webb, star of the old Dragnet series. "Just the facts, ma'am."
Iím sure more evidence will come out and the ladies stories need to be heard. The very fact that Andrew is named in the files and is accused of having sex with an underaged girl is pretty big. Also, the man remained friends with Epstein after everything and was publicly seen with him is appalling enough. Again, weíve seen more outrage over bogus stuff on the royal front than weíve seen with Andrewís situation. Címon now! This is bad, and, by the looks of it, potentially itís going to get worse.

Then to have The Queen and Andrew in the car showing all their teeth as this story take off and after Epsteinís mysterious death. That totally rubbed me the wrong way.
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  #1874  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:11 AM
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I'm going to hold off being part of an outraged mass of people pointing fingers at Andrew until I see incontrovertible proof that a jury could use to declare Andrew guilty of sex with a minor.

What we "see" isn't always the full picture. The puzzle is still being put together. Until then, it seems like the BRF is keeping calm and carrying on with their lives.
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  #1875  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Allegations, rumors, hearsay and the like do not a scandal make. If evidence is provided that Andrew, indeed, has dirt on his hands, then it will be time to start the outrage and see how it affects the House of Windsor and Andrew himself.

As of now, Andrew has denied all the allegations against him. Remember, innocent until proven guilty.
Do you think he's going to admit to anything??
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  #1876  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Do you think he's going to admit to anything??
To be absolutely honest, I'd say he'd only admit to anything if he absolutely and positively had to because there is incontrovertible evidence against him that would make denying he was involved sound like Andrew had lost all sense of reality. And no, I don't see Andrew getting off on an temporary insanity plea either.
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  #1877  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:34 AM
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Several overly speculative posts have been removed. Let's try and stick to what is known, and focus it on Andrew's connection to the scandal.
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  #1878  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
You were expecting him to admit openly to groping a minor?

Both Charles and Andrew have shown a lover's profile that is typical for the sons of very strong and impressive mothers: they prefer to date older women Charles with Camilla, Andrew with Koo Stark and then Sarah Ferguson. Both have been able to keep their relationships alive with these ladies over decades.

Koo Stark for example said this about Andrew: "Prince Andrew is a dear friend of mine and godfather to my daughter. Iíve only known him to be honourable and honest, with Christian values."
She clearly dismisses all allegations that he was having sex with underaged girls, saying that this is not how he is as a man.

(Source:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ve-claims.html)


And that was after we first heard the same things we are hearing now.

My impression is that we might not know all there is about Andrew's acquaintance with Epstein, but we know enough of his official relationships to see that he has none of the "typical" character traits of pedophile.
To meet young ladies at a billionaire's home is something that happens in a lot of houses as money and a certain lifestyle including fast cars, yachts and travels is something a lot of young girls crave and they flock to those who give them access. That doesn't mean all guests in that house had to sleep with these girls. And honestly: the difference between 17 and 19 is not sooo big as to immediately spot it, especially when the girls are dressed like the daughters of the house or grown-ups.



So it's nothing new but the rechewing of an old "scandal" that never really was one by the tabloids.

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  #1879  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:27 AM
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Unfortunately, this is the problem that victims of sexual assault always have, and why it is so risky to come forward at all. As women, or children, their word is very seldom enough to convince some people that they have been assaulted. A powerful man always has more credibility in some people's eyes than any number of women, and men who prey on women and children depend on that to get away with it.

I have no idea what Andrew's involvement with Epstein consisted of, but the fact that he's a member of the BRF doesn't automatically give him a pass, as far as I am concerned, and I am hoping that if he is culpable, he isn't protected from consequences just because he is a royal.

Edited to add:

Just so it is clear where I am coming from, a long time ago I volunteered at a sexual assault crisis center, and have also worked with children who have been sexually assaulted. A recurring theme is the lack of belief they encounter, the questioning of their motives, and the fact that many people seem to have a hard time accepting that the public face a predator shows is not the face that is shown to his victims. "But he seemed like such a nice guy!"
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  #1880  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:51 AM
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Unfortunately, this is the problem that victims of sexual assault always have, and why it is so risky to come forward at all. As women, or children, their word is very seldom enough to convince some people that they have been assaulted. A powerful man always has more credibility in some people's eyes than any number of women, and men who prey on women and children depend on that to get away with it.

I have no idea what Andrew's involvement with Epstein consisted of, but the fact that he's a member of the BRF doesn't automatically give him a pass, as far as I am concerned, and I am hoping that if he is culpable, he isn't protected from consequences just because he is a royal.
That’s true indeed. I respect due process, but, in cases like this, powerful people with money and high connections usually get the upper hand. This whole thing is extremely devastating and I hope these women get every piece of Justice they deserve.
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