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  #1821  
Old 08-11-2019, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
This only matters if one pays attention to tabloids. I'll wait for the real facts with credible sources.
Osipi, these accusations against Andrew are not coming from tabloids. Two women named Andrew in unsealed court documents, which were revealed hours before Epstein's suicide.

I admit your post from yesterday made me slightly queasy-- the idea that a man who, if we take the stance of believing victims, was involved in the way he was in this affair, is comfortable under diplomatic immunity, basking in a country estate, enjoying the beautiful weather this time of year () with his ex-wife and daughters is truly nauseating.
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  #1822  
Old 08-11-2019, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighGoalHighDreams View Post
Osipi, these accusations against Andrew are not coming from tabloids. Two women named Andrew in unsealed court documents, which were revealed hours before Epstein's suicide.

I admit your post from yesterday made me slightly queasy-- the idea that a man who, if we take the stance of believing victims, was involved in the way he was in this affair, is comfortable under diplomatic immunity, basking in a country estate, enjoying the beautiful weather this time of year () with his ex-wife and daughters is truly nauseating.
Diplomatic immunity? How far down the line of succession do members of the royal family have from being charged with crimes?
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  #1823  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:01 PM
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A lot of people have been named in this Epstein saga including the President of the United States and a former President of the United States. The lawsuit against Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump documents were even posted in this thread. So was Prince Andrew of the UK named among many more high profile people.

We don't know the facts of just how much any of them were really involved in Epstein's "lifestyle" and if any of them actually committed a criminal offense. Its possible that they will all have to answer questions as to how they were involved but the main case against Epstein, himself, went to the grave with him. Whether or not victims file a civil case against these people remains to be seen. There's a lot of evidence and documentation and allegations that point towards Andrew, himself, but I'm not his judge nor his jury.

This is not something that is going to disappear in a New York minute, I fear. It remains to be seen just what happens now with Epstein out of the picture.

Don't quote me on this as I can't for the life of me remember just where I read or heard this but it was stated that Andrew has not set foot on American soil in quite some time now. I'm actually not sure just how protective "diplomatic immunity" works. Perhaps someone that knows more can inform us. Perhaps Andrew was only covered by it with his role as UK's trade envoy?
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  #1824  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
The fact that Andrew was a friend of this monster and even holidayed with him is enough to tarnish his reputation anyway but it's not just Epstein. Ghislaine Maxwell, the women who supposedly procured girls for Epstein and his friends to abuse, is another close friend of Andrew and the authorities now have her in their sights.This, and the accusations against him from two of the girls concerned, means that this story is far from over.
I agree, but it won't come to head until the Queen passes, imo + Ghislaine is in deeeep with the British tabloid world/ at least has some close ties to some of the big head figures. (especially the DF).

These are not some made up 'tabloid' stories from 'exclusive(imaginary) sources'. They are first hand and explicit victim testimonials that are supported by (public) photographic evidence. The later is the reason why Andrew's name is tied more concretely to the Epstein case than anyone else's.

If by some miracle this doesn't blow up even more once Charles takes over(and this is a big *if*, imo) the best course of action would be for Andrew to quietly retire from his royal duties/role and hope to the high heavens that it won't be bought up again for the sake of his family.
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  #1825  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Chloep View Post
.........

These are not some made up 'tabloid' stories from 'exclusive(imaginary) sources'. They are first hand and explicit victims testimonials that are supported by public photographic evidence. The later is the reason why Andrew's name is tied more concretely to the Epstein case than anyone else's.

:
I think this is a very important point of differentiation. My recollection is that either the recently released depositions or earlier information explicitly named Andrew as having had inappropriate contact with the plaintiffs, but apparently neither Trump or Clinton did, unlike some other previously well regarded U. S. political figures.

When you have multiple people corroborating a story, at some point you have to consider that it is not simply tabloid gossip, and that there may possibly be some fire under all that smoke.

Edited to add: It really does devolve at some point into the question that crops up far too often: How many women giving consistent testimony does it take to make accusations against a powerful male stick? In another recent case, it took over 60 women, and there were still people who were willing to be apologists for the accused.
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  #1826  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sndral View Post
I read that Charles was at church as well? I don’t recall him being at Balmoral at the same time as the Yorks in past summers - I assume he would be at Birkhall?
Birkhall is on the Balmoral Estate. Yes, Charles and Camilla were at church. They arrived separately because they came from a different house.
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  #1827  
Old 08-11-2019, 02:54 PM
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A couple of posts have been deleted as they add nothing to the discussion.

Let's try to stay on topic and cease with the speculative comments as well as the conspiracy theories.
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  #1828  
Old 08-11-2019, 05:21 PM
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I'm not surprised at all by Epstein's suicide. He seemed to be a pretty horrible and manipulative individual and I hope that the victims in this case receive the right amount of support and justice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sophie25 View Post
The fact that Andrew was a friend of this monster and even holidayed with him is enough to tarnish his reputation anyway but it's not just Epstein. Ghislaine Maxwell, the women who supposedly procured girls for Epstein and his friends to abuse, is another close friend of Andrew and the authorities now have her in their sights.This, and the accusations against him from two of the girls concerned, means that this story is far from over.
I agree with this. If this were a "regular" sexual abuse/paedophile investigation and case, Andrew would be investigated to determine whether he was involved or not just as any other friends of Epstein or others who were accused would be. I believe it's only fair for Andrew to be investigated especially as two women have come forward separately from the tabloids, though I doubt that he will be.
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  #1829  
Old 08-11-2019, 07:09 PM
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CNN just announced Epstein's autopsy has been completed. This should be interesting.

And this from beyond the grave, Epstein kept diaries about his associates

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mir...n-18909521.amp

Not sure how much is true but if it is.....O.M.G.
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  #1830  
Old 08-11-2019, 08:15 PM
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The picture of him with one of the two women who name him is on the internet. She sure looks underage to me!
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  #1831  
Old 08-12-2019, 12:56 AM
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She was 17 - not underage. We don't know the circumstances in which the photo was taken. How many of us, if at an event with a royal, wouldn't want our photo taken with the royal?

We don't know the circumstances at all.

This, by the way, is nothing new. This was all made public in 2011 (about Andrew I mean).

In 2015 Virginia Roberts tried to be added to a court case against Epstein and the judge ruled that she couldn't be added.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sndral View Post
The Queen gave Andrew some kind of award last time Epstein related allegations were in the press, so of course she’ll support him this time as well.
The Queen didn't give Andrew 'some kind of award'. It just happened that the story broke at the exact time that he, and Prince Michael of Kent, were due for their regular military promotion.

All British royals who serve in the military are given substantive promotions every five years after they leave the military under an agreement with the government and the MoD. That is why Harry was promoted to Major last year - at about the time, had he stayed in the army he would have been due for that promotion on merit. Now he, like his uncle, brother, father and the Queen's cousins who served, will get a promotion every five years.

That is all that happened with Andrew in 2011 - he was due for his five yearly promotion at the time the story broke. The Queen didn't give him any award at all. The system just worked and he was promoted.

Quote:
That said, the Yorks always go to Balmoral around this time of year, so Andrew’s appearance at church is not out of the ordinary IMO.
I read that Charles was at church as well? I don’t recall him being at Balmoral at the same time as the Yorks in past summers - I assume he would be at Birkhall?
Charles and Camilla stay at Birkhall for most of the summer but they still go to church at Craithie Church as it is the nearest church to the Balmoral estate and Birkhall is on the Balmoral estate.

The Yorks go up for the first week, so that Sarah can be with Andrew and Beatrice for her birthday and before Philip arrives as he won't be around if Sarah is.
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  #1832  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
She was 17 - not underage.
I think, the case is, that she was prostituted. And prostitution with 17 is a crime in any case. And these underage girls were trafficked over state boundaries too and abroad too - while Epstein was the pimp.

What Prince Andrew is involved here in, is the "high class" equivalent to the grooming gangs and victims of Rotherham.
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  #1833  
Old 08-12-2019, 06:26 AM
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Any material released and reported on is obviously not of any interest to the DA's in either Florida or New York.

The material was probably sealed for no other reason than the stature of those involved. I mean now you have the current President, ex President, a Nobel Laureate, a Prince of the UK, etc. If there was not enough evidence to charge them then they were obligated not to destroy their reputations or risk being up being sued in Civil Court.

Nothing has changed as regards those files. They didn't cut the mustard ten years ago and harping and sniping about Andrew is just an action replay of the same vitriolic rants of a decade ago.

However, I am as interested as everyone else in any further bona fide evidence that could come to light with the renewed interest in the new Florida investigation due to the legal anomalies.

I can only reiterate that the NYDA office stated they had no evidence connecting PA to their current case and Florida released all the original sealed files which would indicate they were of no evidentiary interest to them.

So, until something new comes to light I refuse to endorse villification of PA. We did that a decade ago and have no right to play God. I mean 'Andrew shouldn't go to church"? Really? Such judgemental behaviour has the thinking about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".
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  #1834  
Old 08-12-2019, 07:48 AM
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Age of consent is 17 in NY state; 18 in Florida. And it depends what else the prosecution has. DM is claiming Ghislaine Maxwell is ready to talk to the feds.
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  #1835  
Old 08-12-2019, 09:40 AM
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Virginia Roberts Guiffre, one of Epstein’s many accusers, and a self described “sex slave” says she was 16 when recruited by ghislaine Maxwell, Epstein’s alleged “madam”. Maxwell accused Guiffre of lying and in 2015 Guiffre filed a anti defamation lawsuit against her. On Friday, the day before Epstein’s death, a federal judge released 2000 pages of sealed documents related to the anti defamation lawsuit and two women, Guiffre and Johanna Sjoberg accused Prince Andrew. Sjoberg’s 2016 deposition corroborated Guiffres testimony.

In the picture of Andrew and Virginia, has has his arm around her waist, not your usual royal photo. 17 year old girls (I thought she was younger) would still be eligible for statutory rape status with a man more than 4 years their senior.
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  #1836  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
I think, the case is, that she was prostituted. And prostitution with 17 is a crime in any case. And these underage girls were trafficked over state boundaries too and abroad too - while Epstein was the pimp.

What Prince Andrew is involved here in, is the "high class" equivalent to the grooming gangs and victims of Rotherham.
Exactly. It wouldn't have mattered if she was 37, these girls were being coerced/threatened into having sex with Epstein and his friends and they were frightened to say no as they knew they were powerful people . The trafficking and coercion are in themselves a crime.
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  #1837  
Old 08-12-2019, 02:08 PM
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As daughter of Robert and his wife Elizabeth Maxwell Ghislaine Maxwell was a well-connected socialite living in London, who had an American visitor that got photographed with Prince Andrew when he was a guest there. That is all. Andrew knew Epstein and his ex-wife allowed Epstein to pay some of her debts. A lot of people knew Epstein and Fergie has had a lot of people giving her money. She has survived worse scandals that taking money from Epstein.
Some girls claim that Andrew cuddled them or slept with them but obviously there is no proof and the prince denies this. According to the law you are innocent until proven guilty.

I am really not a fan of Andrew and Fergie and their circle of very rich friends. But in this instance he is to be considered innocent.
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  #1838  
Old 08-12-2019, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
I think, the case is, that she was prostituted. And prostitution with 17 is a crime in any case. And these underage girls were trafficked over state boundaries too and abroad too - while Epstein was the pimp.

What Prince Andrew is involved here in, is the "high class" equivalent to the grooming gangs and victims of Rotherham.
Exactly! Seeing smiling Queen supporting smiling Andrew make me sick. They should be ashamed of themselves. https://media.gettyimages.com/photos...28?s=2048x2048
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  #1839  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Rena M. View Post
Exactly! Seeing smiling Queen supporting smiling Andrew make me sick. They should be ashamed of themselves. https://media.gettyimages.com/photos...28?s=2048x2048
Isn't that a bit harsh? Have we resorted to being Andrew's judge, jury and executioner because last I've heard, the only thing pending against Andrew, himself, is unsubstantiated allegations that haven't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Andrew actually participated in wrongdoings or criminal offenses.

Life goes on and the Queen and her family still attend church together, love each other and support each other through thick and thin. That's how it should be in my book.
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  #1840  
Old 08-12-2019, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
In the picture of Andrew and Virginia, has has his arm around her waist, not your usual royal photo. 17 year old girls (I thought she was younger) would still be eligible for statutory rape status with a man more than 4 years their senior.
I agree. The photo seems a little suspicious to me particularly now, given all we know about Epstein. It just doesn't seem natural - one wouldn't pose with a 17 year old like this if they were quadruple their age on their own in a natural setting (e.g. if it were at a party, I think it'd be more likely the young girl would be with a friend or a parent at least). I'm not accusing Andrew, but I still think he needs to be properly investigated so a verdict can be made. But, as I said yesterday, this isn't a "regular" case...
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