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  #1801  
Old 08-10-2019, 05:31 PM
Osipi's Avatar
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I wouldn't worry overly much about Andrew. He has diplomatic immunity and I don't think he's going to be involved in all of this whatsoever. He may have had "association" with Epstein but there is nothing to indicate that Andrew was part and parcel of what they were going to prosecute Epstein on. They're going to go after the people that aided and abetted Epstein in his proclivities.

I'm sure the Yorks are enjoying their time away at Balmoral. Its a wonderful place to be at this time of the year.
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  #1802  
Old 08-10-2019, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloep View Post
Yep.... . Watch them single out a semi-famous, but ultimately unimportant person as a scapegoat and the rest being swept under the rug. Just way too many high profile people all over the spectrum were his 'friends' and 'associates' - this was going to happen no matter what.

That's what I think too.
The top tier will get away clean.

And, if anyone truly believes Epstein committed suicide, there's a bridge in Brooklyn for sale...
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  #1803  
Old 08-10-2019, 06:24 PM
rominet09's Avatar
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Well let's say it is very convenient this suicide. But not knowing him I won't judge….
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  #1804  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:33 PM
Serene Highness
 
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
The more that comes out, the fishier things are starting to smell. I sincerely don't believe that someone that was to be on constant suicide watch would have that watch given such an extended break just for maintenance. And the camera "malfunctioning"? Its a coincidence right? Too "convenient" for me to believe.

I bet some heads are going to roll at MCC. The FBI is investigating.
That does sound all-too convenient. When I saw this news a few hours ago I could hardly believe it because he was supposed to be on suicide watch. A few minutes later I thought someone must have turned a blind eye on purpose.

Intriguing to wonder who was behind this (at the least) failure to prevent Epstein's suicide...I usually dismiss conspiracy theories but this one doesn't seem possible *without* some conspiracy behind it.
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  #1805  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:23 PM
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So how long now do we have to wait for the Truth to come out. 48 hrs or longer. However long it takes we want the Truth not some made upconvenient story.
And the investigation must go on for justice to be served for these poor girls.
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  #1806  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:44 PM
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We'll probably never know the whole truth. In one report according to former federal prosecutor Renato Mariotti, the case against Epstein dies with him:

"Jeffrey Epstein’s suicide ends the criminal case against him because no one else was charged in the indictment. … [It] means that there won’t be a public trial or other proceedings that could reveal evidence of his wrongdoing. Evidence collected via grand jury subpoena won’t be released to the public. It’s still likely that the public will learn additional information from civil cases by victims against his estate or non-criminal investigations (for example, the DOJ OIG investigation).
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  #1807  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:48 PM
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At any rate, I heard that Epstein's victims are furious (understandably so) now. Everything's going to be swept back under the rug, it seems.
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  #1808  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:00 PM
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Well that will be a travesty of justice right there Osipi. Espeically If everything is swept under the rug, if the investigation is stopped. There are still repeat offenders attached to this case. So justice should continue on the same course. Crimes have been committed do they just lose interest now because the main perpetrator is dead.
The whole world is watching. Are they going to show that the justice system in the USA is now warped and corrupt as other third world places.

I have to amend my last sentence. Now warped and corrupt as other Western and third world places. Because it is becoming clearer everyday so many wealthy countries can be just as corrupt in many practices and getting away with it.
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  #1809  
Old 08-10-2019, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
At any rate, I heard that Epstein's victims are furious (understandably so) now. Everything's going to be swept back under the rug, it seems.
Yes. The worst part of this is that the victims won't see Epstein pay for his crimes or feel closure about this.
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  #1810  
Old 08-10-2019, 10:42 PM
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A Truth and Reconciliation Commission sounds like something we should have Every time a new government is elected.
Governments and politicians these days lie and lie about all sorts of things. Mostly they get away with it as a distortion of the facts.
If a commission were held on a previous governments conduct then we can hold them more accountable and the newly elected government might just behave themselves for more than 5 minutes.
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  #1811  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:06 AM
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We had Andrew show up with HM at church. IMHO the optics of this are very bad.
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  #1812  
Old 08-11-2019, 09:35 AM
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What is so bad about Andrew going to church with his mother - as he does every year when he is at Balmoral? This is just the family doing what they always do - it is Sunday at Balmoral so we go to church.

Hiding away will only give those who wish to believe the worst ammunition. Andrew has denied the allegations - way back in 2011.

The UK has a very simple legal principle as well - innocent until PROVEN guilty. Trial by media isn't a means of proof. Until Andrew faces a court of law and is PROVEN guilty he has every right to go about his life.

I remember a court case in the UK last year where a small piece of video was sold to the media and on the basis of that snippet the public were convinced of a man's guilty. However the jury saw and heard a lot more and the man walked free from the court room having been found 'not guilty' in a court of law. Of course the people who only saw the snippet and want to believe the worst of the man believe that there was a miscarriage of justice while the jury who heard all the evidence and not just one little part of it were convinced of the man's innocence.

Andrew is entitled to the same assumption of innnocence as any other person in Britain.
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  #1813  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
What is so bad about Andrew going to church with his mother - as he does every year when he is at Balmoral? This is just the family doing what they always do - it is Sunday at Balmoral so we go to church.

Hiding away will only give those who wish to believe the worst ammunition. Andrew has denied the allegations - way back in 2011.

The UK has a very simple legal principle as well - innocent until PROVEN guilty. Trial by media isn't a means of proof. Until Andrew faces a court of law and is PROVEN guilty he has every right to go about his life.

I remember a court case in the UK last year where a small piece of video was sold to the media and on the basis of that snippet the public were convinced of a man's guilty. However the jury saw and heard a lot more and the man walked free from the court room having been found 'not guilty' in a court of law. Of course the people who only saw the snippet and want to believe the worst of the man believe that there was a miscarriage of justice while the jury who heard all the evidence and not just one little part of it were convinced of the man's innocence.

Andrew is entitled to the same assumption of innnocence as any other person in Britain.


If only that were true. A certain demographic gets the brunt of miscarriages of justice because they are assumed guilty due to unconscious biases in the justice system.
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  #1814  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:16 AM
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The tabloids are having a field day. They are making sure Andrew's name is tied to this suicide. It's not helping that public figures and newscasters are suggesting murder. It's a matter of time before the BRF is accused. The Windsors have to worried now. This won't go away with Esptein's death.
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  #1815  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Andrew is entitled to the same assumption of innnocence as any other person in Britain.
In a court of law this is absolutely true. However, in real life, we all carry our reputations around with us wherever we go, and people will and do judge us by our actions, how they compare to our words, and the company we keep, along with other things. At the very minimum, Andrew showed appalling judgment in continuing to have contact with Epstein, and it raises questions in a lot of people's minds, fairly or not.
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  #1816  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:25 AM
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This only matters if one pays attention to tabloids. I'll wait for the real facts with credible sources.
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  #1817  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ista View Post
In a court of law this is absolutely true. However, in real life, we all carry our reputations around with us wherever we go, and people will and do judge us by our actions, how they compare to our words, and the company we keep, along with other things. At the very minimum, Andrew showed appalling judgment in continuing to have contact with Epstein, and it raises questions in a lot of people's minds, fairly or not.
Indeed and it's probably going to get hotter for him for a while with this "suicide" and documents being released. The press hadn't really jumped on him too much before this time around.

That said him accompanying his mother to church when he's staying with her isn't bad optics for her. Laying low wouldn't help him much either.
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  #1818  
Old 08-11-2019, 10:56 AM
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The fact that Andrew was a friend of this monster and even holidayed with him is enough to tarnish his reputation anyway but it's not just Epstein. Ghislaine Maxwell, the women who supposedly procured girls for Epstein and his friends to abuse, is another close friend of Andrew and the authorities now have her in their sights.This, and the accusations against him from two of the girls concerned, means that this story is far from over.
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  #1819  
Old 08-11-2019, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
... Of course the people who only saw the snippet and want to believe the worst of the man believe that there was a miscarriage of justice while the jury who heard all the evidence and not just one little part of it were convinced of the man's innocence.

Andrew is entitled to the same assumption of innnocence as any other person in Britain.
I agree that oft times the press will focus on a snippet and ignore the nuances. However, here in the U.S., and I assume in the UK, criminal juries don’t find people innocent, thus to find some one not guilty a jury need not be ‘convinced of the man’s innocence.’ To acquit a criminal jury need only decide that the prosecution did not prove guilt under the highest burden of proof in law - beyond a reasonable doubt. A great example of the difference in the burden of proof is OJ Simpson - criminal jury found him not guilty whereas civil jury found him liable.
The Queen gave Andrew some kind of award last time Epstein related allegations were in the press, so of course she’ll support him this time as well. That said, the Yorks always go to Balmoral around this time of year, so Andrew’s appearance at church is not out of the ordinary IMO.
I read that Charles was at church as well? I don’t recall him being at Balmoral at the same time as the Yorks in past summers - I assume he would be at Birkhall?
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  #1820  
Old 08-11-2019, 11:55 AM
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Link to photos of arrivals at the church https://www.hellomagazine.com/royalt...w-in-balmoral/
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