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  #4181  
Old 08-03-2020, 09:40 AM
Osipi's Avatar
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Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
Seriously? She's unwilling because she was dragged around as a poor girl who was bullied into having sex with men with money and power. If you don't understand that YOU don't understand the law. Though it might be different for Andrew seeing as his mother is above the law. Or that might be how HE sees it.
I think on this subject, I'm going to stick to what the Metropolitan Police have deemed in relation to Andrew and Guiffre. They may reopen the case in the future and then again, they may not. They are far more experienced in handling this situation than either you or I are.

Andrew will get no special treatment because he's his mother's son. The Queen may be above the law but Andrew isn't.
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  #4182  
Old 08-03-2020, 10:23 AM
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I'm sorry but as I sift through this thread the entire Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, Prince Andrew relationship is seriously disturbing. The salacious details of what we think we know are head spinning. I don't even think Ghislaine's trial starts until July 2021, although a lot can happen until then. My one concern is that Donald Trump could pardon Ghislaine prior to the trial especially if he wins the upcoming election in Nov (God forbid!) The president was just recently wishing her well. Yikes!! A big thank you to the many of you who have been following these cases and know the intricacies to keep the rest of us updated regarding Prince Andrew, his involvement and the pending Maxwell trial.
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  #4183  
Old 08-03-2020, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
I'm sorry but as I sift through this thread the entire Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, Prince Andrew relationship is seriously disturbing. The salacious details of what we think we know are head spinning. I don't even think Ghislaine's trial starts until July 2021, although a lot can happen until then. My one concern is that Donald Trump could pardon Ghislaine prior to the trial especially if he wins the upcoming election in Nov (God forbid!) The president was just recently wishing her well. Yikes!! A big thank you to the many of you who have been following these cases and know the intricacies to keep the rest of us updated regarding Prince Andrew, his involvement and the pending Maxwell trial.
Maxwell being pardoned is something that seriously gives me the creeps. What's even scarier is that a sitting president of the United States can pardon anyone he wants to at any time he wants to and, IMO, Trump has his reasons to want Maxwell off the hook. Hopefully though, Maxwell will be brought to court, tried and convicted of her crimes. Anything else, even a pardon, could be construed as obstruction of justice and won't go down well.

In all this, Andrew is really just a little minnow in the pond that floated around the exterior circle of Epstein/Maxwell. Andrew may have partook in the banquet every now and then but as a "guest", he wasn't part of the operation to put on the banquet itself.
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  #4184  
Old 08-03-2020, 10:53 AM
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That's not the point. The point is that Andrew was involved in using young women.. even f he didn't know they were trafficked or borderline under age. He may not be as guilty as teh repellent Epstein and Maxwell but he was the one who said at his interview taht Ghislaine was his friend of the 2.. and she was Epstein's pimp.
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  #4185  
Old 08-03-2020, 11:28 AM
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At the most then, he's guilty by association. There have been no criminal charges filed against Andrew. He is not being looked at for any criminal activity at this time. In other words, they're looking to prosecute Maxwell as the "pimp" "enabler" 'instigator" "co-conspirator with Epstein". Andrew doesn't fit into that mold at all.
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  #4186  
Old 08-03-2020, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
At the most then, he's guilty by association. There have been no criminal charges filed against Andrew. He is not being looked at for any criminal activity at this time. In other words, they're looking to prosecute Maxwell as the "pimp" "enabler" 'instigator" "co-conspirator with Epstein". Andrew doesn't fit into that mold at all.
just because he's not been charged does not mean that he has not behaved appallingly. Hes "not a pimp" isn't exacly the standard of behavior one expects from a royal.
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  #4187  
Old 08-03-2020, 11:41 AM
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I'm quite sure everyone agrees that he behaved appallingly. I haven't seen any post suggesting that what he did was admirable or decent. The discussion concentrated on whether he committed a crime. The MET so far concluded he did not; or that at least there isn't sufficient evidence to charge him.
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  #4188  
Old 08-03-2020, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
just because he's not been charged does not mean that he has not behaved appallingly. Hes "not a pimp" isn't exacly the standard of behavior one expects from a royal.
So, then tell me. What do you think a royal that behaves badly should face? Andrew is just as human as the rest of us whether or not he's a royal. He's responsible for his own behavior and his own actions and from where I'm sitting he's reaping what he's sown. Being "royal" doesn't make him a different species of the human race. If a human shows his life to be one of depravity, it will be reflected in how people see that person. Andrew's character and reputation has gone down the tubes. That's on him.
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  #4189  
Old 08-03-2020, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
So, then tell me. What do you think a royal that behaves badly should face? Andrew is just as human as the rest of us whether or not he's a royal. He's responsible for his own behavior and his own actions and from where I'm sitting he's reaping what he's sown. Being "royal" doesn't make him a different species of the human race. If a human shows his life to be one of depravity, it will be reflected in how people see that person. Andrew's character and reputation has gone down the tubes. That's on him.
so what does it mean that he is human? Yes people make msitakes but this is more than a mistake. I hope he hasn't committed a crime but I fear that he was bordering on one.. and that possibly his positon is saving him from a deeper investigation or a charge. IMO he should be stripped of his HRH. He is still a wealthy man leading a comfortable life, and I know the Queens not likely to remove his HRH but i wish she would. However she's a very old woman and I suppose it is hard for her to accept that her favourite son has behaved so appallingly...so she may just not want to beleive it...
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  #4190  
Old 08-03-2020, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
so what does it mean that he is human? Yes people make msitakes but this is more than a mistake. I hope he hasn't committed a crime but I fear that he was bordering on one.. and that possibly his positon is saving him from a deeper investigation or a charge. IMO he should be stripped of his HRH. He is still a wealthy man leading a comfortable life, and I know the Queens not likely to remove his HRH but i wish she would. However she's a very old woman and I suppose it is hard for her to accept that her favourite son has behaved so appallingly...so she may just not want to beleive it...
If she didn't believe any of it; why did he step down from royal life?
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  #4191  
Old 08-03-2020, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
so what does it mean that he is human? Yes people make msitakes but this is more than a mistake. I hope he hasn't committed a crime but I fear that he was bordering on one.. and that possibly his positon is saving him from a deeper investigation or a charge. IMO he should be stripped of his HRH. He is still a wealthy man leading a comfortable life, and I know the Queens not likely to remove his HRH but i wish she would. However she's a very old woman and I suppose it is hard for her to accept that her favourite son has behaved so appallingly...so she may just not want to beleive it...
HRH is a honorific form of address and only pertains to his position of birth. People don't earn HRHs. A medical doctor earns the M.D. after his name and that would be stripped if that doctor's actions sullied his role as a medical doctor and he would lose his license to practice medicine. A serial killer of 54 people is still entitled to be addressed as Mr. An 77 year old woman is still correctly addressed as a Miss if she's never married. Being born into a royal family and going by UK traditions, Andrew remains a HRH which will not be removed for any reason other than treason.

What the Queen believes or doesn't believe doesn't figure into it. I don't think that the Met Police would treat Andrew with any more deference when it comes to a crime than any Joe Public off the street. When it comes to indicting, prosecuting and sentencing someone for a crime, its the crime committed that deems the outcome. Not status, name or personal connections. This is what is upsetting actually about the rumor being floated around of Trump pardoning Maxwell. I personally would see it as obstruction of justice and a sitting person using the office of the president for "personal reasons".
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  #4192  
Old 08-03-2020, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
If she didn't believe any of it; why did he step down from royal life?
Ummm could it be because noone would work with him? Charities dropped him left right and center.. Even so I think Charles had to step in to insist that Andrew stepped down. But it was obvious that he had to go, once the charities started to drop him...
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  #4193  
Old 08-03-2020, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
What the Queen believes or doesn't believe doesn't figure into it. I don't think that the Met Police would treat Andrew with any more deference when it comes to a crime than any Joe Public off the street. When it comes to indicting, prosecuting and sentencing someone for a crime, its the crime committed that deems the outcome. Not status, name or personal connections. This is what is upsetting actually about the rumor being floated around of Trump pardoning Maxwell. I personally would see it as obstruction of justice and a sitting person using the office of the president for "personal reasons".
The latter already happened in other cases, so, it's not unthinkable that he would do it again.

However, that has little to do with Andrew being prosecuted if there was sufficient evidence of a crime he committed. Just like I˝aki and Cristina were prosecuted with I˝aki being convicted and currently serving time.
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  #4194  
Old 08-03-2020, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
HRH is a honorific form of address and only pertains to his position of birth. People don't earn HRHs. A medical doctor earns the M.D. after his name and that would be stripped if that doctor's actions sullied his role as a medical doctor and he would lose his license to practice medicine. A serial killer of 54 people is still entitled to be addressed as Mr. An 77 year old woman is still correctly addressed as a Miss if she's never married. Being born into a royal family and going by UK traditions, Andrew remains a HRH which will not be removed for any reason other than treason.

What the Queen believes or doesn't believe doesn't figure into it. I don't think that the Met Police would treat Andrew with any more deference when it comes to a crime than any Joe Public off the street. When it comes to indicting, prosecuting and sentencing someone for a crime, its the crime committed that deems the outcome. Not status, name or personal connections. This is what is upsetting actually about the rumor being floated around of Trump pardoning Maxwell. I personally would see it as obstruction of justice and a sitting person using the office of the president for "personal reasons".
if you beleive that Trump might pardon Maxwell or that Epstein received a "sweet deal" I don't see why Andrew might not wriggle out of any prosecution, esp if it was hard to make a good case...

And he should certianly lose teh HRH.
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  #4195  
Old 08-03-2020, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
At the most then, he's guilty by association. There have been no criminal charges filed against Andrew. He is not being looked at for any criminal activity at this time. In other words, they're looking to prosecute Maxwell as the "pimp" "enabler" 'instigator" "co-conspirator with Epstein". Andrew doesn't fit into that mold at all.

We know that the Feds are investigating Maxwell, but we don't know who else is in their sights. If Epstein really did record everything, there's tons of evidence to go through. They may have video tapes, phone calls, and emails, to examine. The following links explain the criteria for charges to brought against traffickers and the men/women who used the trafficked teenagers.


https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceo...ex-trafficking


The last paragraph of this link pertains to foreign citizens.


https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceo...ation-children
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  #4196  
Old 08-03-2020, 12:09 PM
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The bottom line is that we can debate crime or no crime and deem what Andrew's "punishment" should be until the cows come home but the reality is that it will be the courts and the judges and the prosecutors and defense teams that will deem justice at the end of the day.

As of now, today, Andrew has not been accused of any crime. Andrew is not being looked at, to my knowledge, of committing any crime. Andrew's reputation is in the toilet never to be redeemed and that's basically all we have to go by right now.
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  #4197  
Old 08-03-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
if you beleive that Trump might pardon Maxwell or that Epstein received a "sweet deal" I don't see why Andrew might not wriggle out of any prosecution, esp if it was hard to make a good case...

And he should certianly lose teh HRH.
On what grounds would it be deemed the right thing to do to remove his HRH? Because he behaved badly, immorally, brought disgrace to himself and the rest of the British Royal Family?

Removal of a HRH sets a precedence. We saw that with Diana's divorce from Charles, the Queen removed her HRH *but* it was deemed that *all* divorced wives of a HRH had their HRH removed and therefore Sarah lost hers too. It involved letters patent. There has to be a solid reason to remove a HRH.

So, lets say the Queen decides that because of bad behavior, immoral activities etc, its grounds to remove Andrew's HRH. With that being the precedent set that certain behaviors deem the removal of a HRH, then it would also stand to reason that she would also then remove Charles' HRH for *his* not so upright behavior in the past. Its just logic.
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  #4198  
Old 08-03-2020, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
HRH is a honorific form of address and only pertains to his position of birth. People don't earn HRHs.
Yeah, and bad luck, that "HRH" signals membership in the Royal Family...

Like in this "Gotti film": They rise and march and fall together, the persons of power...

So, I think, you are correct - getting rid of Andrew's HRH would set quite an unpleasent example! But not getting rid of Andrew's membership card for the "firm" could prove also as very unpleasent!

A Lose-Lose-situation.
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  #4199  
Old 08-03-2020, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
Seriously? She's unwilling because she was dragged around as a poor girl who was bullied into having sex with men with money and power. If you don't understand that YOU don't understand the law.
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Looking happy for a picture doesn't mean she wasn't trafficked or forced into this situation. PPL need to look up what happens with pimps and the women who don't play the role right.
None of the preceding comments denied that.
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  #4200  
Old 08-03-2020, 02:20 PM
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I think we can safely say that Andrew is no longer associated with the "Firm" side of the family business. His office at BP has been dismantled, he holds no public roles representing the BRF or the monarchy and has effectively been put out to pasture to graze for the rest of his life. The biggest thing we'll see from Andrew is photos of him driving a car going somewhere of no real importance at all.
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