The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2401  
Old 09-28-2019, 12:33 PM
O-H Anglophile's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 3,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dman View Post
This was a sex trafficking activity. Not prostitution. These girls were trafficked to wealthy and famous men. The youngest was said to be at least 14 years old.
Read all of what I wrote, not just one sentence and responding to that sentence out of context.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2402  
Old 09-28-2019, 12:54 PM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Monsey, United States
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
In your previous post you seemed to imply that Andrew committed a crime - what's the evidence for that? Because in that case it needs to be proven that Andrew knew or should have known (in a legal way) that the girls were sex-trafficked. If it was widely known, why wasn't his friend persecuted for that years ago?!

Suggesting he committed a crime is completely different than stating that 'Andrew should have known better'. That's something I fully agree with (and I assume that sentiment is shared widely - if all that is said is true, it's disgusting that it happened and that Epstein and Maxwell got away with it for so long). I would also add that everyone involved should have known better - it's not just princes that should know how to behave and treat others.
I definitely don't know if Andrew is guilty, but the fact that Jeffrey Epstein "pleaded guilty and was convicted in 2008 by a Florida state court of procuring an underage girl for prostitution and of soliciting a prostitute. He served almost 13 months in custody, but with extensive work release," would make you think that perhaps being a public person like Andrew is (and of course Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, and many, many others) would have stayed away from him afterwards. Andrew and Jeffrey were photographed in Central Park in 2010, two years after the conviction. That doesn't prove anything, but kind of makes you think that if Andrew didn't care about what Jeffrey pleaded guilty of two years prior, that perhaps he wouldn't have cared even years earlier when the picture of Andrew and the girl was taken.

And I only focus on Andrew on this because of the context of where we are. A forum about the Royal Family, a thread about Andrew and Epstein. Of course there are many other men involved in this who I find just as disgusting and appalling. Whether guilty or not, still hanging out with a guy convicted of soliciting sex with a minor, is gross to me. You are the company you keep.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2403  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:09 AM
Madame Verseau's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Louisville, United States
Posts: 1,744
The FBI is stepping in. A new probe of Andrew's connection with Epstein

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ims-royal.html

This mess is getting worse by the day. No official denials are going to make it go away and Beatrice's wedding is potentially on the path of being impacted. This is staining the whole BRF. Instead of hiring a crisis manager for PR Andrew needs to get his lawyers in front of this. The best wedding present for Beatrice is for Andrew to clear his name.
Reply With Quote
  #2404  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:15 AM
Muhler's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 13,682
Isn't trafficking on this level (i.e. international and also crossing federal boundaries) a matter for the FBI anyway?
And why shouldn't they investigate Prince Andrew?
I imagine they investigate everyone who has been personally associated with Epstein.
Reply With Quote
  #2405  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:28 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 12,827
Investigating doesn't mean they will find evidence - if none exists because Andrew is telling the truth. I wonder how many people who have condemned him will believe that result? I suspect that many many people simply won't believe the result unless Andrew is convicted and hung, drawn and quartered - even if he is in fact innocent - as he claims.

Of course if he is guilty he should face the same penalty as anyone else.
Reply With Quote
  #2406  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:57 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
The FBI is stepping in. A new probe of Andrew's connection with Epstein

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ims-royal.html

This mess is getting worse by the day. No official denials are going to make it go away and Beatrice's wedding is potentially on the path of being impacted. This is staining the whole BRF. Instead of hiring a crisis manager for PR Andrew needs to get his lawyers in front of this. The best wedding present for Beatrice is for Andrew to clear his name.
Consider the source of your information and right there, you can tell its not reliable information of what is actually happening. The investigation has been ongoing since Epstein committed suicide and will continue and every nook and cranny and every rock will be turned over to find out and get to the bottom of this.

Because Andrew is part of the investigation that does *not* imply that he's anywhere near being suspected of committing any kind of a crime that he can be prosecuted by law for. This has absolutely no bearing on Beatrice's wedding unless the people that read the tabloid stories make it to be and those can be very easily ignored.

Just because the Daily Mail says something doesn't mean it to be true and time to take a powder, clutch pearls and swoon away and call for smelling salts and imagining the blackest cloud ever hanging over Andrew or any of his family. You think that, it means you buy into the tabloid thinking.

Most likely the connection that the FBI are investigating as far as the criminal charges of sex trafficking with Andrew may not solely be because of his involvement with Epstein. We have to remember too that Andrew was/is a long time friend of Ghislaine Maxwell, who the FBI is rumored to be very seriously looking into on the sex trafficking angle. Many of the girls have stated how Maxwell lured them in and groomed them. She was the one aiding and abetting Epstein's salacious private life it seems. It has yet to be proven.

There has been no indication anywhere that Andrew was indicated as any kind of suspect in sex trafficking crimes. The Feds are not out to find and bust and prosecute every man that had sex with these girls. They're getting to the bottom of the sex trafficking of women and find and prosecute those that aided and abetted Epstein in procuring these girls, grooming them and controlling their sexual activities. I honestly don't see Andrew being involved at that kind of a level with Epstein's sex ring business.

Andrew will be just fine and do what he has to do. We don't know if or how many lawyers he has on this as its not been made public. The BRF and "Firm" as a whole will not be affected whatsoever other than seeing Andrew again as "Randy Andy" and Beatrice's wedding will be the one of her dreams and be a happy occasion.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #2407  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:16 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,955
Andrew will be just fine? I don't think so...
Reply With Quote
  #2408  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:16 AM
Madame Verseau's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Louisville, United States
Posts: 1,744
@Osipi - The Sunday Times broke the FBI story to Andrew and I believe it is considered a reputable paper. The tabloids are picking it up.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/n...tein-xr2k0p3cx

The Times has a pay wall so I used the DM link. The Feds getting involved is still bad and Scotland Yard is providing assistance. Not good at all. And this is more than the "Randy Andy" moniker of being a player. If your name is caught up in something this serious one needs to take it seriously.
Reply With Quote
  #2409  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:35 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,428
The Feds have always been involved since Epstein's death. Of course they're going to look at Andrew and want to know what he knows about both Epstein and Maxwell. What he knew, what he saw, what took place that he actually witnessed. They're most likely *not* looking at Andrew as a suspect in sex trafficking crimes.

The sex trafficking part is what we have to remember that they're looking into now with Epstein gone. This is the big difference between what Epstein was found guilty of and sentenced to prison for in Florida for crimes in the State of Florida. None of those crimes he was found guilty of had anything to do with sex trafficking, international or federal charges. The worse he was convicted of was two felony prostitution charges, register as a sex offender, and pay restitution to three dozen victims identified by the FBI. Not a whisper about any kind of sex trafficking. The more recent arrest and indictment of Epstein were to be prosecuted in a US Federal Court with the charges of criminal sex trafficking. Big differences. We have to remember too that these girls were brought by Epstein(Maxwell) outside of the US and that denotes international sex trafficking.

Andrew most likely will never recover his reputation again no matter what comes out in any investigation or if he's ever found innocent or guilty. Once a reputation is gone, its next to impossible to redeem it again. However, as far as criminal sex trafficking charges against Andrew, to me there is no indication anywhere that he would have been that involved with Epstein and Maxwell to be an active part of aiding and abetting the procurement, grooming and controlling of these young girls. He, however, could have been very aware of these young girls and took advantage of the situation in front of him at the time. That's a whole different ball of wax though aside from criminal sex trafficking.

That's what we need to remember. What is being investigated now is criminal sex trafficking on an international level and not who slept with who that was underage at the time.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #2410  
Old 09-29-2019, 10:18 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,955
I fail to see how he could be "doing fine". HIs reputation has gone.. He may not be technically guilty of a crime but it si impossible to believe that he did not know what sort of man Epsteirn was and he continued to associate with him..
Reply With Quote
  #2411  
Old 09-29-2019, 10:44 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,428
Of course his reputation has tanked and people have long memories and there will be repercussions that come out of all this such as his reputation influencing charities and organizations to drop him and who knows what else.

What I meant actually and perhaps didn't express it clearly that when it comes to a criminal investigation, I really don't believe they're going to find anything to really prosecute him with. That's just a gut feeling but I could be proven wrong. Until he is indicted, tried and found guilty of a crime, I think Andrew will go about his life the best that he can and this whole thing isn't going to hang an ominous black cloud over the BRF or Beatrice's wedding. At least I hope so.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #2412  
Old 09-29-2019, 11:48 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Bellevue, United States
Posts: 1,317
I just read the article in today's Sunday Times. It's much briefer than the Daily Mail's.

The lead paragraph states: "Prince Andrew risks being further embroiled in the Jeffrey Epstein scandal as The Sunday Times reveals today that the FBI has expanded its investigation to identify more of the billionaire’s victims, who could provide information on the royal."

The Daily Mail also repeats statements previously made to the Times by John Mark Dougan, the former Palm County deputy sheriff now living in Russia including this: "'My copies of the files [Epstein case] will never be released unless something untoward happens to me, because they are my guarantee of safety for me and my family in the US."

Today's Sunday Times article doesn't include that statement but I found it in an earlier article published September 25: "“The FBI got hold of all the data I have when they raided me. My copies of the files will never be released unless something untoward happens to me, because they are my guarantee of safety for me and my family in the US.”

Notice the sentence I boldfaced. The Daily Mail didn't include it. IMO this omission insinuates that Dougan (and perhaps the Russians) might have information on Andrew that the FBI doesn't. But obviously that's not true if the FBI already has copies of Dougan's files.

So much for the Daily Mail.
Reply With Quote
  #2413  
Old 09-29-2019, 01:26 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Of course his reputation has tanked and people have long memories and there will be repercussions that come out of all this such as his reputation influencing charities and organizations to drop him and who knows what else.

What I meant actually and perhaps didn't express it clearly that when it comes to a criminal investigation, I really don't believe they're going to find anything to really prosecute him with. That's just a gut feeling but I could be proven wrong. Until he is indicted, tried and found guilty of a crime, I think Andrew will go about his life the best that he can and this whole thing isn't going to hang an ominous black cloud over the BRF or Beatrice's wedding. At least I hope so.
of course he will because he seems to have no sense of wrong doing about his behaviour...
Reply With Quote
  #2414  
Old 09-29-2019, 01:39 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,428
How many of us have made mistakes years ago that we're still wearing sackcloths and ashes in repentance for our sins? To my knowledge, anything "immoral" or "unethical" in Andrew's behavior (which still hasn't been proven to be true) didn't happen two months ago but years ago if it did even happen.

People seem to want to see Andrew confess his sins to all and sundry and do penance forever more over this. None of us are ever put into that kind of a situation for our wrong doings. If, by chance, it is found that Andrew is tried and convicted of a crime, he'll be sentenced appropriately. Until then, the public has no reason to demand that Andrew do anything at all to appease their higher sense of morality and their indignation.

Innocent until proven guilty is the way the law sees it and so will I. I do have my own thoughts about Andrew's character but in a case like this, its not my place to be his judge and jury and executioner.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #2415  
Old 09-29-2019, 03:16 PM
Empress Merel's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: -, Netherlands
Posts: 2,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
How many of us have made mistakes years ago that we're still wearing sackcloths and ashes in repentance for our sins? To my knowledge, anything "immoral" or "unethical" in Andrew's behavior (which still hasn't been proven to be true) didn't happen two months ago but years ago if it did even happen.

People seem to want to see Andrew confess his sins to all and sundry and do penance forever more over this. None of us are ever put into that kind of a situation for our wrong doings. If, by chance, it is found that Andrew is tried and convicted of a crime, he'll be sentenced appropriately. Until then, the public has no reason to demand that Andrew do anything at all to appease their higher sense of morality and their indignation.

Innocent until proven guilty is the way the law sees it and so will I. I do have my own thoughts about Andrew's character but in a case like this, its not my place to be his judge and jury and executioner.
Where did he do any penance? 'Cause he didn't, at all.
Reply With Quote
  #2416  
Old 09-29-2019, 03:30 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
Where did he do any penance? 'Cause he didn't, at all.
Of course he didn't. He determinedly stuck with Epstein after he must have realised that Epsteins behaviour was both immoral and criminal.
Reply With Quote
  #2417  
Old 09-29-2019, 03:39 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 5,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissPeach77 View Post
I definitely don't know if Andrew is guilty, but the fact that Jeffrey Epstein "pleaded guilty and was convicted in 2008 by a Florida state court of procuring an underage girl for prostitution and of soliciting a prostitute. He served almost 13 months in custody, but with extensive work release," would make you think that perhaps being a public person like Andrew is (and of course Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, and many, many others) would have stayed away from him afterwards. Andrew and Jeffrey were photographed in Central Park in 2010, two years after the conviction. That doesn't prove anything, but kind of makes you think that if Andrew didn't care about what Jeffrey pleaded guilty of two years prior, that perhaps he wouldn't have cared even years earlier when the picture of Andrew and the girl was taken.
I fully agree with all of the above. Nonetheless, his (minor) sentence might have meant that people thought it wasn't too bad (so that's something that the judicial system in the US should look into) - even though that would be hard to believe. I guess Epstein explained it 'away' that way to his friends who were most likely more than willing to take his word for it.

And if I understand this post correctly, you are coming back from your previous statement that Andrew committed a crime. He may have but so far there is insufficient evidence to state that he is guilty of (knowingly) taking part in sex-trafficking.
Reply With Quote
  #2418  
Old 09-29-2019, 04:33 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Empress Merel View Post
Where did he do any penance? 'Cause he didn't, at all.
My post was to indicate that whatever "penance" he would be required to do or amends to make or anything concerning his association with Jeffrey Epstein shouldn't have to be something put out into the public domain. Even his being questioned and/or interviewed by the FBI about his connections concerning their investigation won't be made public knowledge nor the amount of lawyers he has working for him on this or if he hires some really good and awesome PR people to get ahead of this for him.

In other words, he's not required to explain anything (or do penance) at all for the general public about something that may or may not have happened in his private life a long time ago.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #2419  
Old 09-29-2019, 05:15 PM
EllieCat's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Invercargill, New Zealand
Posts: 529
Quote:
In America, it is the same thing that happened with Harvey Weinstein. Maybe the general public had no idea, but as soon as the story broke about Harvey, everyone and their mother in Hollywood started coming forward saying that it either happened to him, or they had heard the stories for years.
Same with Bill Cosby and Rolf Harris. Women coming forward, 'Me too'. And yet it seems to me as though no one else has come forward to say anything about Prince Andrew in that respect, that I've read, anyway.

Prince Andrew made a huge blunder in not stepping away from Epstein when it was first discovered what kind of man he was, and is going to have to live forever with the consequences of that misplaced 'loyalty'.
Reply With Quote
  #2420  
Old 09-29-2019, 05:28 PM
Dman's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 15,832
Quote:
Originally Posted by EllieCat View Post
Same with Bill Cosby and Rolf Harris. Women coming forward, 'Me too'. And yet it seems to me as though no one else has come forward to say anything about Prince Andrew in that respect, that I've read, anyway.

Prince Andrew made a huge blunder in not stepping away from Epstein when it was first discovered what kind of man he was, and is going to have to live forever with the consequences of that misplaced 'loyalty'.
Why would he step away when itís alleged he enjoyed the participation of the sex trafficking?
__________________

__________________
"WE CANNOT PRAY IN LOVE AND LIVE IN HATE AND STILL THINK WE ARE WORSHIPING GOD."

A.W. TOZER
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes abu dhabi anastasia 2020 armstrong-jones baptism british brownbitcoinqueen canada chittagong commonwealth countries coronavirus countess of snowdon cover-up daisy duke of sussex dutch royals emperor family tree gustaf vi adolf haakon vii heraldry hill history interesting introduction israel jack brooksbank jewelry jumma kent king willem-alexander książ castle line of succession list of rulers luxembourg mailing maxima nepal nepalese royal family norwegian royal family popularity prince charles prince constantijn princess catharina-amalia princess chulabhorn princess dita princess elizabeth pronunciation queen consort queen maud queen maxima royal balls royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royal wedding russian court dress spain speech startling new evidence stuart swedish queen taiwan thailand tracts videos von hofmannsthal wedding gown


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:38 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×