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  #2281  
Old 09-01-2019, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Purrs View Post
I agree that the majority of the fallout will be on Andrew, as it should be. The best case scenario is his terrible judgement by choosing to be seen with Epstein after Epstein's conviction.
.

I think his judgment was terrible during his whole friendship, since the late 1990’s. Andrew saw the young girls coming and going; he knew they weren’t housekeepers or waitstaff.

He observed and participated in a louche lifestyle even if he never touched any of the girls in a sexual way. A 40 year old man wouldn’t ordinarily get a foot massage from a teenaged girl.

And Epstein, while praised for his intellect and charm, was known to be coarse and crude- just take a look at the decor of his homes. He had velvet slippers with a silver screw on the right one and an embroidered “U” on the other one. He was known to interrupt the conversations between guests with the phrase “what does this have to do with parsley?” Only the word wasn’t “parsley”.

Whatever he did for Andrew, Andrew wanted to return favors- like, maybe, with invitations to his mother’s homes. Did he ever invite his friend to Royal Lodge? (bet not)

I think most people think, or at least hope, that Andrew wasn’t involved in committing a crime. But it’s impossible to deny that he was involved in a very sordid situation.
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  #2282  
Old 09-02-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
.

I think his judgment was terrible during his whole friendship, since the late 1990’s. Andrew saw the young girls coming and going; he knew they weren’t housekeepers or waitstaff.

He observed and participated in a louche lifestyle even if he never touched any of the girls in a sexual way. A 40 year old man wouldn’t ordinarily get a foot massage from a teenaged girl.

And Epstein, while praised for his intellect and charm, was known to be coarse and crude- just take a look at the decor of his homes. He had velvet slippers with a silver screw on the right one and an embroidered “U” on the other one. He was known to interrupt the conversations between guests with the phrase “what does this have to do with parsley?” Only the word wasn’t “parsley”.

Whatever he did for Andrew, Andrew wanted to return favors- like, maybe, with invitations to his mother’s homes. Did he ever invite his friend to Royal Lodge? (bet not)

I think most people think, or at least hope, that Andrew wasn’t involved in committing a crime. But it’s impossible to deny that he was involved in a very sordid situation.
Royalty does not need to offer favours in return. Just being in their presence is a huge benefit. Associating with royals adds legitimacy and glamour to even the disreputable.
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  #2283  
Old 09-02-2019, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
.
Whatever he did for Andrew, Andrew wanted to return favors- like, maybe, with invitations to his mother’s homes. Did he ever invite his friend to Royal Lodge? (bet not)

I think most people think, or at least hope, that Andrew wasn’t involved in committing a crime. But it’s impossible to deny that he was involved in a very sordid situation.
I wonder - and it is such a terrible situation! - if "Andrew wanted to return favors", or if he had to do it, especially after the story came onto light and Prince Andrew still did meet him... Blackmail comes to mind...
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  #2284  
Old 09-02-2019, 03:43 PM
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I think Andrew likes showing off, inviting his "friend" to the Queen's residences is more exciting than inviting them to Sunninghill or Royal Lodge, Andrew knows they'll go home and brag about going to Balmoral or Sandringham in a way they can't about going to one of his homes.
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  #2285  
Old 09-02-2019, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rob2008 View Post
Royalty does not need to offer favours in return. Just being in their presence is a huge benefit. Associating with royals adds legitimacy and glamour to even the disreputable.
Bingo! Andrew was just trying to keep Epstein ‘sweet’, for whatever reason. This story gets sadder and sadder. I don’t see how it blows over without some permanent damage to Andrew.
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  #2286  
Old 09-02-2019, 05:06 PM
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I'm more inclined to believe that inviting Epstein to Balmoral or Sandringham or any royal residence is due to Andrew wanting to show that, like Epstein, he had access to many wonderful and palatial homes just like Jeffrey. I think ego would want Andrew to put himself on the same "level" as Epstein rather than be thought of as a spare prince of the UK with not much clout in his pocket.

I suppose Epstein could have something to hold over Andrew's head but, for the most part right now, its nothing more than speculation. Then again, so is Andrew's motives I've just laid out. Its all we can really do right now is speculate.
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  #2287  
Old 09-02-2019, 11:33 PM
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It's fascinating to me that throughout this sordid episode very few people have been willing to fault the Queen. I respect her in most things, but it gets harder to ignore the obvious: she has spoiled Andrew and indulged his awful judgement. Are we to believe that her advisers didn't alert her to Epstein's criminal past when her son was staying in his Manhattan home? Why didn't she and Philip insist on Andrew's cutting ties to Epstein when the man's sex-offender status was a matter of public record? No one in the serious press seems willing to venture here.


My guess is that Andrew will continue to trot about the country on his various engagements. But there's little doubt his reputation is in the cellar. If only he could dial back some of his natural arrogance and show a little humility, as I do believe he's a fundamentally decent person, capable of empathy and charm, who has made serious errors of judgement.
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  #2288  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:02 PM
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Sorry for the double post...

But this doesn’t look good for Andrew:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-Ireland.html
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  #2289  
Old 09-03-2019, 11:14 PM
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Not shocked his engagements were cancelled. I am sure this will not be the last ones either because who wants to be associated with this mess? The family should have realized this was not wise but their motto is old fashioned and honestly hurting them.
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  #2290  
Old 09-04-2019, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
But this doesn’t look good for Andrew:



https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-Ireland.html


It is only expected that Translink which is the public funded transport system of Northern Ireland should withdraw the invitation to let this “dignitary” open an upgraded facility.
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  #2291  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MariaBee View Post
It's fascinating to me that throughout this sordid episode very few people have been willing to fault the Queen. I respect her in most things, but it gets harder to ignore the obvious: she has spoiled Andrew and indulged his awful judgement. Are we to believe that her advisers didn't alert her to Epstein's criminal past when her son was staying in his Manhattan home? Why didn't she and Philip insist on Andrew's cutting ties to Epstein when the man's sex-offender status was a matter of public record? No one in the serious press seems willing to venture here.


My guess is that Andrew will continue to trot about the country on his various engagements. But there's little doubt his reputation is in the cellar. If only he could dial back some of his natural arrogance and show a little humility, as I do believe he's a fundamentally decent person, capable of empathy and charm, who has made serious errors of judgement.
I would not say that Andrew is particularly charming. Generally he is said to be very arrogant and capable of being very unpleasant and rude. He is bull headed and that's what has cuased this awful situation.. Had he chosen to drop Epstein once he was convicted.. Yes the queen should have insisted on his doing so.
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  #2292  
Old 09-04-2019, 09:04 AM
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From all I've read over the years, I have to agree with your character assessment, Denville. Too many times Andrew comes across as overly arrogant and rude such as driving right into a closed gate rather than go around it and insisting he goes first because "he's the prince".

The fallout that is happening with the cancelled engagement in NI doesn't surprise me in the least and I wouldn't be surprised if more were to follow. This is a case of Andrew's actions causing reactions and its not a positive thing for him.

I believe all this would have still hit the fan and blown sky high against Andrew even if he had cut off Epstein after the 2008 conviction. Most of the allegations and accusations against Andrew actually stem from the time before Epstein was convicted and had to register as a sex offender.
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  #2293  
Old 09-04-2019, 10:56 AM
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I agree the Queen does deserve a portion of the blame for indulging and excusing her favorite child but No one wants to go there even the normally harsh press because she is such a revered and loved and respected figure to most British . She is wise and savvy but in the end she is a imperfect human and a mother and in my guess did not want to believe, recognize her son was consorting with skeevy slime-balls and vulnerable teenage girls on Islands. I wonder how Phillip is dealing with this though? I don’t know much about the father son relationship there.
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  #2294  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:46 AM
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I think before Epstein's first arrest and conviction, Andrew's parents probably didn't have a clue what the man was like at all. It wasn't common knowledge broadcasted all over the place that Epstein was so perverted and used and abused under age females. After his conviction, from the optics of the general public, Epstein got a good rap on the wrists with a ruler like my teacher nuns used to do to us and was mildly scolded not to be a "bad boy" again.

I cannot lay any blame on the Queen or the Duke of Edinburgh at this point at all. They may have been completely in the dark like the rest of us were at least until 2008.
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  #2295  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:50 AM
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It's sad, but I think a big public wedding for Andrew's eldest daughter-similar to what Eugenie had-is off the table for the foreseeable future if Beatrice announces an engagement soon.

I cannot see the Duke of York proudly waving to the crowds outside of St. George's like last October as he prepares to walk her down the aisle.


As usual, the York girls are going to experience some residual fallout due to the actions of the parents.
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  #2296  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I think before Epstein's first arrest and conviction, Andrew's parents probably didn't have a clue what the man was like at all. It wasn't common knowledge broadcasted all over the place that Epstein was so perverted and used and abused under age females. After his conviction, from the optics of the general public, Epstein got a good rap on the wrists with a ruler like my teacher nuns used to do to us and was mildly scolded not to be a "bad boy" again.

I cannot lay any blame on the Queen or the Duke of Edinburgh at this point at all. They may have been completely in the dark like the rest of us were at least until 2008.
No but they have known for years that he was convicted of a crime and that would be enough for most people in their position, to ensure that any friendship with the person was ended. yet even now the queen does not seem to realise how bad it looks that Andrew is still doing royal engagements, "brazening it out" and taht he remained friends with this man. And yes I've defended Andrew at times because while he was always stupid, crude and arrogant, I thought that he had a bit of a decent side.. was a good father and was loyal to Fergie..but his behaviour in the past few years has shown that he really has not learned anything in all his years.
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  #2297  
Old 09-04-2019, 02:00 PM
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It's bad. Andrew's engagements arenoff the official royal website

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-listed.html#

BP really must be worried.
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  #2298  
Old 09-04-2019, 02:37 PM
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If the cancellations continue, is it feasible that Andrew will be made to retire or take a break for a while so as not to bring the family down? If this happens will they possibly look to one of his daughters to take on his role as a working royal?
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  #2299  
Old 09-04-2019, 02:50 PM
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I think they will take it in stride if more of Andrew's engagements or charities back out. That, in and of itself, will lessen his public appearances. I do not, however, ever see any of the York princesses being called on to take Andrew's place. That would just bring more unwanted attention to the situation than there already is.

We'll just have to watch and see what happens.
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  #2300  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:00 PM
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If the cancellations continue, is it feasible that Andrew will be made to retire or take a break for a while so as not to bring the family down? If this happens will they possibly look to one of his daughters to take on his role as a working royal?
no indeed. They were never intended to be working Royals....
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