Sarah and Eugenie: Documentary on Turkish Orphanages - November 2008


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And, frankly, any halfway reasonable person who knows what the policies of Turkey are would never permit an underage child (royal or not) to go "undercover" and violate the laws of Turkey.

But if you want to see the British crown (and the other powers involved in advising royals and overseeing passport/visa issues) as being this naive and, frankly, willing to risk a child's life in order to document something already well-documented in many places, go ahead.

We're simply speculating. But I don't believe HM allowed her granddaughter to violate laws in Turkey, of all places.

(And for no good reason - as I've said before, there's tons of other footage by competent professionals, the royal pair could simply have publicized the issue).
 
It was just plain bad form for Sarah to involve her daughter in this venture, what ever the merits of the cause I have no doubt that for Sarah either directly or indirectly there was a commercial element to it. JMO, but I don't think she has an altruistic bone in her body.
 
I still think that while the "Queen has to know," that Sarah doesn't always follow the rules. The Queen didn't know where Sarah was when she made her "access" deal, did she? I agree the Queen is supposed to know where Sarah is - but that doesn't make Sarah cooperative.

I find it hard to believe the that powers that be in Britain would know that Sarah was going to Turkey to interfere in Turkish policies.


The Queen doesn't have to know where Sarah is at all. Since Sarah's divorce she has been a free agent and hasn't had to tell anyone where she is.

The Queen does have to know where the girls are - as did in 2008 the security people around the girls. Consequently when the girls are/were with Sarah The Queen has to know where the girls are but when Sarah is alone The Queen doesn't need to know.
 
And, frankly, any halfway reasonable person who knows what the policies of Turkey are would never permit an underage child (royal or not) to go "undercover" and violate the laws of Turkey.

But if you want to see the British crown (and the other powers involved in advising royals and overseeing passport/visa issues) as being this naive and, frankly, willing to risk a child's life in order to document something already well-documented in many places, go ahead.

We're simply speculating. But I don't believe HM allowed her granddaughter to violate laws in Turkey, of all places.

(And for no good reason - as I've said before, there's tons of other footage by competent professionals, the royal pair could simply have publicized the issue).


As Eugenie couldn't go anywhere without approval the only possible assumption is that the powers that be must have known - sorry but the powers do use the royals and underage ones are good for that as no one would put any blame on them.

It is naive to believe that the government doesn't use the royals for political purposes and using Eugenie is good because she is high profile enough to get away with it but far enough from the centre that if it backfires Sarah can take the fall.
 
There's been a question running through my mind ever since this incident has been brought up again. Was Sarah or was she not making that documentary under the umbrella of Children in Crisis? It would really make sense to me if she was because this kind of situation in Turkey fits hand in glove with the primary purpose of the organization. So, lets assume she was. It just seems strange to me that they're focusing on prosecuting Sarah only. As it stated in the article "BBC royal correspondent Peter Hunt said a source close to the duchess had said she had just been trying to run a humanitarian trip and was surprised she was being brought to task when it was ITV that filmed the documentary."

It just seems that there's something fishy about this whole thing. Perhaps there's some underlying agenda by the Turks we're just not aware of?
 
The fact that this documentary was titled "Duchess and Daughters" IMHO says much of what needs to be said about Sarah in this situation.

(If she made the documentary and the title was outside of her control, I offer my sincere apologies.)

Add me to the list of those who are baffled about why Turkey is pursuing this, though. I don't see any favorable outcome for them.
 
:previous: I too am confused. By "going after Sarah" the Turkish government tacitly acknowledge that they were aware of the conditions in state-run orphanages and decided it was a state secret. Isn't the "hidden camera" the vehicle by which the horrors of the Romanian Orphanages were first brought to the notice of the world?

As to comparing such filming as being the same as accessing Sarah's, or indeed any royal or celebrity's personal voice mail for scandal rags to make more money? I think the analogy is both ridiculous and disingenuous bordering on the obscene!
 
As I said earlier, many nations have laws about what can be filmed (or whether filming can be done) in their nation. I'm an anthropologist, most of my friends are anthropologists, and in grad school, one of us got kicked out over illegal filming (photographing) in China. To do journalism OR research in some nations (many nations), you need permission from several sources (for Egypt, for example - at least, pre-revolution Egypt, one needed several permissions if the film was going to be released or broadcast).

Tourist video is different, but if someone sold that video to a news outlet or broadcast it widely (not youtube), there could be problems (usually resulting in being banned from travel to that nation, prosecuted if one ever returns - and sometimes being banned from other nations who share the same laws). It's quite serious and Turkey is one of the least friendly nations. Turkey has been extremely upset about how it has been portrayed in documentaries by journalists in particular.

Sarah is not a professional anthropologist OR journalist and she doesn't know these things (and there's lots more). To possess valid press credentials is a first step - and by valid, many nations mean "having completed a degree in journalism or be hired by a handful of recognized publications."

While it is a heroic thing to try and document child labor, many watchdog organizations already exist and have brought data out of Turkey. Do further pictures really help? Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, already donate - and thousands volunteer as watchdogs. But not under age people. Most watchdog organizations have good training, the participants are older (and in some cases, are single or without children - because this is dangerous).

Of course Turkey is aware. India is aware, Pakistan is aware, Sierra Leone is aware, Korea is aware, China is aware, Thailand is aware - of their child labor, the sex trafficking, all the other problems too. The U.S. is aware that we have meth labs and drug cartels and people illegally selling guns to Mexico and South America. But the U.S. has a very different form of government - and view on freedom of speech and press - than Turkey. Indeed, I know someone who is facing prosecution in Italy for having made some online comments about a hotel; in Italy, there are crimes of honor and besmirching someone's reputation is one of them (the woman owns property in Italy - she cannot go back and enjoy that property unless she is willing to face the charges). Indeed, France still has such a law on the books (and so do many other nations). Great Britain has different laws about publishing than the U.S., and while one cannot face criminal prosecution for publishing in Great Britain (AFAIK), one faces different levels of censorship.

So, it's important to study the place you're going and in my view, to listen to experts. After my acquaintance got in her Italian trouble, I added that issue to my research charts (I would love to see parts of Turkey, but I know others who have had trouble there; in my profession we share that trouble pretty openly) and so my DH and I are waiting until we're much older to visit both Turkey and Egypt, and a few other places. Getting stuck inside a foreign nation or disappearing inside of it isn't something I want to do until I'm closer to the natural end of my life.

Turkey can focus on whomever they want, but when Turkey (or Iran) go after some people (Iran went after three young American backpackers while permitting many other nationalities to pass), they do it to send a message.

That's how international relations work.

Marg, I love your sig - but it only works in certain places. There are places in the world where wild words (especially from a woman) can get a woman into some real problems. Or sometimes, any words at all! (As I have found out the hard way, myself).

At any rate, Sarah surely knows some of the dangers (and Romania isn't Turkey). I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I do know people within activist organizations who sunshine the danger in order to get celebs aboard (even Green Peace does this - and not all Green Peace activities are a walk in the park). It's fine to put one's own life on the line (I suppose - although I wonder if Sarah is truly competent to make her own major life decisions), but involving one's kids is not good.
 
It was just plain bad form for Sarah to involve her daughter in this venture, what ever the merits of the cause I have no doubt that for Sarah either directly or indirectly there was a commercial element to it. JMO, but I don't think she has an altruistic bone in her body.

I don't think Sarah is a bad hearted person and in many of her endeavors, likely including this one, she probably does have at least superficially well meaning intentions. But she doesn't seem to be able to consider the ramifications of her actions.

The sad part is that Sarah could have been in the position to make a positive contribution to any number of different worthy causes if she'd played her cards right, even after the divorce. That would have involved playing by the rules, however, and favoring long term, rational thinking instead of the short term high that comes from doing whatever feels good at the time.
 
Thanks for your very informative post PrincessKaimi. It would be interesting to know what the politics is in this case. From our point of view, at this late date it doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense...but there is obviously method to their madness.

Eugenie was a minor in the UK at the time of the trip. Does anyone know what the legal age is in Turkey?
 
Civil disobedience to attempt to right a moral wrong has a long and storied history in my country. Part of what makes it praiseworthy is the protesting person's recognition of the possible consequences and willingness to pay that price. It is, however, IMO, inexcusable to drag along your minor daughter in such an activity exposing her to those risks.
Likewise, any failure to research and appreciate the potential consequences is simply foolish on Sarah's part.
My understanding of the charges are that she violated the children's privacy rights by filming them, which is a crime in Turkey. I have not seen the documentary, but I understand that the children's faces were shown and that no attempt was made to protect any privacy rights that they as humans should enjoy. To me, that is a different issue than filming something Turkey doesn't want filmed, although I am sure Turkey didn't want the facilities filmed as well.
I find it interesting that the allegation is now being made that the UK is not following it's own legal precedent by refusing to extradite Sarah, based on a very recent case w/ the US requesting extradition (and their request being granted in another case where UK law wasn't violated)
Theresa May accused of 'double standards' over Duchess of York extradition to Turkey - Telegraph
 
As Sarah didn't actually do the filming I don't think she should be held responsible for the fact that the faces of the children weren't pixelated - that is the job of the editors and producers - not the frontperson. The TV network is the one responsible for doing the legal checks and doing the pixelation not the front person/celebrity/newsreader/actor etc.
 
As Sarah didn't actually do the filming I don't think she should be held responsible for the fact that the faces of the children weren't pixelated - that is the job of the editors and producers - not the frontperson. The TV network is the one responsible for doing the legal checks and doing the pixelation not the front person/celebrity/newsreader/actor etc.

You put your face out there you put a target on your back. Now that doesn't mean that people at the network shouldn't have been included in the charges but Sarah dug her own grave there.
 
Sarah was the face of it and she is a big fish so of course the government will go after her. It was a good thing to do but not the right way about it. I don't think Eugenie should off gone and find it very hard to believe BP thought it was anything other then yet another holiday with her mother. Sarah has been very quiet about this so it will be interesting to see her next move I also wonder what else she did for these orphans or was it just the broadcast? Being wards of the State I doubt they could off given permission either the state itself would off had to do it and with the mistreatment that was not going to happen. I understand why Sarah did this and now she can never go back to Turkey hopefully she sees that as a small price to pay if she helped any of these children and I'm wondering what happened to these kids?
 
From what I remember of the programme, the Princesses were not involved in the undercover elements of the programme, such as the alleged privacy offence in Turkey, which was a relatively small segment of the overall show. (For example, there was another section looking at work by Sarah's charity on behalf of children in Romania).

So I don’t think Sarah can be accused of doing something that could get Eugenie (or indeed Beatrice) in trouble. On the other hand, whilst I’m afraid I have forgotten many of the details of the programme, one part that did stick in my mind was when Sarah and the girls were interviewed at home afterwards. You could really see the impact it had had on Beatrice and Eugenie in terms of pushing them to want to do more charity work and use their position in life to make a difference. I’m sure one of them (I think Eugenie) described it as a life changing experience. For me, that is the reason Sarah took her daughters along – to inspire them to want to follow in her footsteps and help others.

People may well take the view that Sarah acted irresponsibly or naively in making this programme (which is not a view that I share) but surely we can acknowledge that her motivations were pure – to expose abuses, help children, and inspire her daughters to appreciate the importance of charity work and the difference that they can make.
 
Civil disobedience to attempt to right a moral wrong has a long and storied history in my country. Part of what makes it praiseworthy is the protesting person's recognition of the possible consequences and willingness to pay that price. It is, however, IMO, inexcusable to drag along your minor daughter in such an activity exposing her to those risks.
Likewise, any failure to research and appreciate the potential consequences is simply foolish on Sarah's part.
My understanding of the charges are that she violated the children's privacy rights by filming them, which is a crime in Turkey. I have not seen the documentary, but I understand that the children's faces were shown and that no attempt was made to protect any privacy rights that they as humans should enjoy. To me, that is a different issue than filming something Turkey doesn't want filmed, although I am sure Turkey didn't want the facilities filmed as well.
I find it interesting that the allegation is now being made that the UK is not following it's own legal precedent by refusing to extradite Sarah, based on a very recent case w/ the US requesting extradition (and their request being granted in another case where UK law wasn't violated)
Theresa May accused of 'double standards' over Duchess of York extradition to Turkey - Telegraph

I personally think this is a wonderful opportunity for the BRF to get rid of this awful, awful woman for 22 years. If I were Prince Philip, I would be leaning on the PM to not block this extradition, and asking their recent guests, the President of Turkey, to help solve this problem. If ever there was an opportunity to solve the Sarah issue once and for all, this would be it! :ROFLMAO:
 
I think the extradition agreement between US and UK is different, Tony Blair agreed on it with the excuse of "war on terror" what means that the UK even extradicts their own citizens (!) to the US. There have been several cases, eg a few Britons being involved in the Enron case.

Of course Sarah wont be extradited unless she is stupid enough to follow an all-inclusive invitation of a rich turkish friend in case there is one :D

This is just another episode of the endless daily soap "Sarah getting herself into trouble". Will it ever end? I guess so, but I doubt there will be a happy ending. Cats are said to have nine lifes, I wonder how many Sarah has and how many she has already used.
 
I agree, Sarah will never be extradited from the UK but Sarah loves to travel. If she travels to another country, can she be extradited from there?
 
Yes - if she travels to a country with an extradition treaty with Turkey then the Turkish government can apply to that third country to arrest her and to extradite Turkey (think about the Wikileaks guy - name escapes me at the moment - he is fighting extradition to Sweden from Britain partly because he fears that once in Sweden he will be extradited to the US - and no top of that he is an Australian citizen)
 
Thanks Iluvbertie...I guess that's why Sarah cancelled her planned trip to the US. This arrest warrant could end up being a huge thorn in her side. I would imagine that there are quite a number of countries that have extradition treaties with Turkey.
 
Yes - I think for the foreseeable future Sarah may very well have to stay put in the UK.
 
Yes - I think for the foreseeable future Sarah may very well have to stay put in the UK.

This is one way for sure for Sarah to have to go "under the radar" and be cautious about where she goes and what she does and who she's going to be meeting. Its kind of scary if you ask me.

I can't help but think that perhaps in a way, its a good thing. Give Sarah time to recoup her image and reputation. Its a shame that something like this has happened and I do think the charges and supposed sentence are far too austere but each country does have its own laws and regulations (I remember watching Midnight Express all too clearly). I'd certainly hate to live my life wondering if I stepped off a plane somewhere, I'd be grabbed and hauled off.
 
The way to prevent that is to stay put - where she isn't wanted, has no job, has no prospects of getting a job so Andrew will really have to support her.

This might even be a catalyst for a remarriage as she would then have the added protection of being HRH again and before anyone says The Queen wouldn't give her consent - she already has - back in 1986. There is no time limit on that permission so they have permission under the RMA.
 
This might even be a catalyst for a remarriage as she would then have the added protection of being HRH again and before anyone says The Queen wouldn't give her consent - she already has - back in 1986. There is no time limit on that permission so they have permission under the RMA.

Not only that but for the Chruch of England they are still married as they were only divorced, their marriage was not annulled. Thus the Queen as the governor of the CoE can't well do anything against a remarriage. But I doubt that Andrew will want to get remarried to Sarah any time soon.
 
However he might want to give some extra protection to the mother of his children and having the HRH back would give her a status that would make it a diplomatic incident for many countries to extradite her to Turkey.

I am not saying he would but it would make like easier in many ways for everyone concerned if she was remarried to Andrew - nothing else needs to change as she is already living in his home and they do many things together.
 
I don't know much about European politics, but this article says if Turkey joins the EU, Sarah could be served a European arrest warrant at that time and end up in a Turkish jail.
 
This might even be a catalyst for a remarriage as she would then have the added protection of being HRH again and before anyone says The Queen wouldn't give her consent - she already has - back in 1986. There is no time limit on that permission so they have permission under the RMA.


But in 1986, Fergie hadn't yet received so much bad publicity.

It's long been rumored that many of the senior royals absolutely despise her, so would the Queen really approve of remarriage to Andrew?
 
It's long been rumored that many of the senior royals absolutely despise her, so would the Queen really approve of remarriage to Andrew?

To protect someone from a Turkish jail - any jail? Yes. But I suspect there will be other ways to protect her - without getting a sham marriage involved and dashing Andrew's chances at a second marriage. We assume he retains affection for Sarah, all the evidence is there, but only he knows if he loves her enough, or in that way, for a re-marriage. If something was done to protect her I wouldn't be surprised if she would have to start paying attention to how she conducts herself as a condition. As the saying goes: A good scare is worth more than good advice. (Edgar Watson Howe). Though the irony is that this 'scare' is the result of a good act.
 
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I don't know...the first priority will always be the preservation of the monarchy, no matter what the cost, and Sarah is so very, very unpopular. She is just too much of a loose cannon and has caused the family too much embarrassment. I would imagine that the BRF will do everything possible to protect Sarah, short of allowing her back in the Firm.
 
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