Sarah and Eugenie: Documentary on Turkish Orphanages - November 2008

[Skydragon]

I find I agree with all of you, but isn´t this the job of investigative journalists or others in a position to do so, why the Duchess of York and her young daughter? Are they really that high profile that they will actually make a difference?
If (a very big if) it makes a difference to those poor sufferers then good, but if not it seems a bit cruel to use them as a means of getting attention for themselves and get in photo ops. I still think that if the Duchess (and I do think she is kind hearted and well meaning besides what I said) she should have gone alone.

I too think it is important to bring this out, but question the use of the young royals. While it may be seen as 'good' for them, one wonders about the youngsters they saw. Those that were willing to watch this sort of programme would have done so without the involvement of Sarah or her daughters, as indeed they did his last programme, in fact very many could be put off because of her involvement.

Alienating the government in charge is hardly going to encourage them to listen to anything anyone else says, it will probably encourage them to hide these atrocities even more.

The comparison between Diana taking the princes to homeless shelters and this is incomprehensible, the homeless shelters in the UK at that time would seem like a night in the Dorchester or Grosvenor.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I'm struck by the difference between the "image" of the York girls that's portrayed in the taboids and celebrity media and the way they appear when they actually speak for themselves. The papers and mags and sites that count on dragging down the high and mighty for the sake of sales have a vested interest in portraying the young and wealthy and/or young and royal as empty-headed socialites only interested in having a good time. So for that reason alone, I think that it's good that the Princess accompanied their mother to Turkey. If Turkey's upset, well that's an unfortunate side-effect; but how can they possibly defend themselves about the horrid conditions in the orphanages?

This documentary and the conditions of the children shown has got far more attention that had it just been the journalist on his own. Newspapers have covered the story, it's a far more high profile story than if Sarah and the princesses hadn't been involved. As far as going alone, maybe her daughters have a higher sense of wanting to see exactly what the conditions were like. They should be given credit for being out there and seeing it first hand, there's nothing like first hand experience, the sights, the smells to give a person a strong sense of wanting to bring about change. Constrast the criticism of Sarah taking her daughters there ( although being adults, they simply could have taken themselves) and Diana being lauded for taking William and Harry to homeless shelters.

 

[Skydragon]

If Turkey's upset, well that's an unfortunate side-effect; but how can they possibly defend themselves about the horrid conditions in the orphanages?

They can't, however these things should be left to the undercover reporters not an ex royal and her children. The programme was being aired with or without the fillip of the grandchildren of the Queen being involved, (a position so many of you like to remind us of)! If HM was involved in giving permission, then she is guilty of interfering in the politics of another country!

 

[Mermaid1962]

I've been your post a long, hard "think", and I concede your point about HM "interfering in the politics of another country." Then the questions need to be asked: Did she know how bad the conditions would be and therefore possibly anticipate Turkey's response; and, did she consult with anyone in the Government before giving permission? It's possible that Beatrice and Eugenie might learn a lesson in international diplomacy from this experience as well as see the horrific conditions that some children live under.

They can't, however these things should be left to the undercover reporters not an ex royal and her children. The programme was being aired with or without the fillip of the grandchildren of the Queen being involved, (a position so many of you like to remind us of)! If HM was involved in giving permission, then she is guilty of interfering in the politics of another country!

 

[Skydragon]

I've been giving your post a long, hard "think", and I concede your point about HM "interfering in the politics of another country." Then the questions need to be asked: Did she know how bad the conditions would be and therefore possibly anticipate Turkey's response; and, did she consult with anyone in the Government before giving permission?.

The monarch is not allowed to be 'political' and therefore it is unlikely the UK government would have given any indication that HM approve the visit. If she knew of the conditions, she would possibly have mentioned to Brown, her concerns, but if she knew, the government were already aware. All of which begs the question, was permission sought or given and if so by whom! If it was Buckingham Palace, was it with HM's permission and if so, that brings her into conflict with the UK government and her remit as sovereign. If it was the UK government, that leaves them open to the suggestion that they, (Gordon Brown) used members of the RF for their own means!

Or was it Sarah acting on her own, with never a care about diplomacy. The story has become about who agreed these girls could go on an undercover assignment, as opposed to the terrible conditions in Turkish orphanages, which should be the focus. IMO, of course.

 

[Russophile]

Wow Sky! Thanks for reminding me. I had forgotten that. HM is really under a lot of constraints about situations like that. It reminded me when Sarah had dinner with some questionable people and it was a big faux pas to HM.

 

[murphy's mom]

This is my first post, so please be kind! I saw the videos posted of Sarah and Eugenie visiting the cancer ward at Leeds, and I was so impressed with how warm, open and friendly Sarah was. It's such a shame that with all her good qualities, and before the situations with Steve Wyatt and John Bryan got so out of hand, something couldn't have been done to salvage her marriage with Andrew and/or allow her to remain a working member of the RF. She could have been such an asset!!! Maybe someone within the RF could have stepped in and worked with her, shown her how to behave more appropriately for a royal. Maybe the Queen???

 

[udyusa]

Or perhaps Prince Philip....?

 

[udyusa]

Welcome , murphy's mom! Enjoy yourself on this interesting board!!!

 

[rmay286]

Re: Sarah and the girls in Turkey: Of course Sarah is going to be accused of only making the trip and participating in the documentary to raise her public profile, but firstly, celebrity endorsements of causes do draw interest that wouldn't otherwise have been raised (for example, I think Oprah Winfrey's endorsement of Barack Obama boosted his campaign). I have no doubt that some (or many) celebrities endorse causes mainly because it makes them look good, but my second point is, if Sarah really wanted get attention, she could have done so by endorsing something trendy and less messy (both politically and emotionally) such as the environment or animal rights. Many celebrities are constantly plugging those causes because they're popular and don't require much (if any) sacrifice on the part of the celebrities.

Sarah is no longer a member of the royal family, but she is the mother of two royals, which is where things get tricky. The Queen is supposed to be apolitical, so assuming that she knew about the trip and sanctioned it, she could be treading into murky waters. Nevertheless, I still think it's excellent that Beatrice and Eugenie went to see the conditions in Turkey. What's a better teacher than direct experience? I personally wish I had the opportunities they have, as royals and with Sarah as their mother, to see the non-sanitized version of Turkey. As a Westerner, I think I and so many other people take privilege for granted and have no clue how deprived the rest of the world really is. The only people who didn't benefit from this documentary , IMO, are the leaders of Turkey (who shouldn't have benefited from it!) and petty little newspapers who like to criticize and find a scandal in everything.

Oh wait, maybe they did benefit from the documentary too, because discussing it is selling their papers...

murphy's mom, I have a theory that Sarah is eventually going to be seen as an asset to the royal family. It's a theory many people probably won't like, but I have my reasons for it!

 

[Menarue]

In my humble opinion Sarah Ferguson will never ever be more than an embarassment to the royal family. She opens her mouth, whatever she says is kindly meant I am sure, but there is something called diplomacy - and obviously she has none. She absolutely barges in where angels fear to tread.
She has kind words to say to people, of course she does, many people do, but that doesn´t make them an asset to any family or a firm. She is uncontrollable, by that, I mean she does not take advice from anyone, not even the people she should be taking advice from. She threw food at people on a plane when she was a member of the royal family, I mention this as a faux pas, but never should have been done by a sober member of the royal family. (I think it was pre divorce) she embarassed people she never should have embarassed, her husband and the Queen in many ways. I wish she would move permanently to the US, she is appreciated there, she is what you call feisty and admire, it is a cultural difference, nothing is right or wrong here, but she would be be wonderful carrying on doing the kind of work she seems to be good at, weight watchers, tv ads. She makes people laugh. she is always ready to talk about anything. She is probably the nicest person you can ever meet, but she is definitely NOT an asset to the BRF.

 

[Skydragon]

It's such a shame that with all her good qualities, and before the situations with Steve Wyatt and John Bryan got so out of hand, something couldn't have been done to salvage her marriage with Andrew and/or allow her to remain a working member of the RF. She could have been such an asset!!! Maybe someone within the RF could have stepped in and worked with her, shown her how to behave more appropriately for a royal. Maybe the Queen???

Welcome! The problems with Sarah and her men friends were only 2 of her problems. HM was far too busy to give Sarah extra tuition, either you know how to behave or you don't and Sarah didn't.

 

[Skydragon]

Re: Sarah and the girls in Turkey: Of course Sarah is going to be accused of only making the trip and participating in the documentary to raise her public profile, but firstly, celebrity endorsements of causes do draw interest that wouldn't otherwise have been raised. I have no doubt that some (or many) celebrities endorse causes mainly because it makes them look good, but my second point is, if Sarah really wanted get attention, she could have done so by endorsing something trendy and less messy (both politically and emotionally) such as the environment or animal rights. Many celebrities are constantly plugging those causes because they're popular and don't require much (if any) sacrifice on the part of the celebrities.

Is that why so many celebs have leapt on the UN bandwagon, because it is trendy, less messy and doesn't require much self sacrifice? Most people, IMO, celebs or otherwise become involved in causes they care passionately about and then there are those that only seem interested in self promotion.
She has already appeared on the Beeb to defend her decision to appear on the programme with a rather sorry, IMO, defense of 'Look I'm not a member of the Royal Family', is this a play to get approval to marry back in, OMG I do hope not!
----------------
The Duchess of York has insisted that an undercover trip to Turkey did not undermine the Queen, or drag the Royal Family into a diplomatic row

BBC NEWS | UK | Duchess defends undercover visit
--------------
So, apparently it was not with government approval, nor with the approval of HM

The Duchess said she was not a member of the Royal Family

Doesn't seem like a good introduction to diplomacy or on putting the Royal family before self promotion.

 

[muriel]

Doesn't seem like a good introduction to diplomacy or on putting the Royal family before self promotion.

But then again, none of those are qualities one would typically associate with Sarah!

 

[Skydragon]

But then again, none of those are qualities one would typically associate with Sarah!

What appears to be two different tales

A spokesman for the Foreign Office made clear, however, that while they were aware of the Duchess's visit, they had not given their blessing to the trip.'Sarah Ferguson, the Duchess of York, and her daughter were visiting Turkey in a private capacity. The views expressed in the programme are the Duchess's own view and do not represent the view of the UK government,' they said

and

and had permission from the Foreign office and all the other sources,' she said

So, according to the Foreign office no permission, according to Sarah, had permission.

'There's more to being a Royal than ribbon cutting': Princess Beatrice defends her TV documentary on orphanages | Mail Online

Sarah then goes on to say 'I would never in a million years do anything to embarrass the Royal Family. I support both the Queen and the Prince of Wales in everything they do". Sarah a word of advice, if that is the case keep your mouth shut and don't involve your daughters in anything HM wouldn't do herself!

 

[Menarue]

Good sound advice Sky but Sarah has never been one to take any notice of anything that upsets her whim of the moment. She just doesn´t seem to think anything through and it gets her into a lot of "scrapes" some far more serious than others.

 

[Bella]

In my humble opinion Sarah Ferguson will never ever be more than an embarassment to the royal family. She opens her mouth, whatever she says is kindly meant I am sure, but there is something called diplomacy - and obviously she has none. She absolutely barges in where angels fear to tread.
She has kind words to say to people, of course she does, many people do, but that doesn´t make them an asset to any family or a firm. She is uncontrollable, by that, I mean she does not take advice from anyone, not even the people she should be taking advice from. She threw food at people on a plane when she was a member of the royal family, I mention this as a faux pas, but never should have been done by a sober member of the royal family. (I think it was pre divorce) she embarassed people she never should have embarassed, her husband and the Queen in many ways. I wish she would move permanently to the US, she is appreciated there, she is what you call feisty and admire, it is a cultural difference, nothing is right or wrong here, but she would be be wonderful carrying on doing the kind of work she seems to be good at, weight watchers, tv ads. She makes people laugh. she is always ready to talk about anything. She is probably the nicest person you can ever meet, but she is definitely NOT an asset to the BRF.

I totally agree with this. Completely.

 

[Bella]

Those are really nice pictures, Ice! I actually think Sarah looks pretty good. In one of the pics she reminds me of the actress Julianne Moore.

 

[Skydragon]

ITV showed a clip of Sarah defending her decision and also from the maker, who said that Sarah asked him, not the other way around. He was, IMO, very careful with his phrasing, when saying this was made with unprecedented royal approval, unfortunately he fails to say which royal, after all Beatrice is an HRH as is Andrew.

The reaction of Eugenie whilst in the orphanage was natural, the same cannot be said afterwards, or I would hope it was 'for camera', when she said words to the affect of 'wow, like I mean I made her so happy'.

Were the images shocking, of course they were, will this have helped, in the short term perhaps, long term no, because now when the European inspectors visit, it will all be shiny and new!

Well done Sarah and the mini mummys, thanks for dragging HM and the Royal Family into the fray! Oh and Beatrice, if cutting ribbons and staying out of politics is not what you want, give up the HRH's!

 

[udyusa]

What....and give up their bodyguards?!

 

[Menarue]

Extremely well said Sky. I think you have echoed what a lot of us think about this "excursion".

 

[Bella]

I don't think that visiting orphanages is political, Sky. Would it have been more appropriate if they had visited such a place in their home country? I think the cutting ribbons comment was basically her saying she wants to be more involved in issues than just the mundane and luke warm "events" like ribbon cutting. Isn't that what everyone wanted: the young royals being more hands and actually "earning" their titles and priviledges? Once again, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

[Menarue]

What was earning Princess Beatrice´s title and privileges? A visit to Turkey without the RF or Government´s permission. This is political meddling whether you like it or not. Sarah has shown she has no sense and it is a pity if her daughter takes after her.

 

[Bella]

What was earning Princess Beatrice´s title and privileges? A visit to Turkey without the RF or Government´s permission. This is political meddling whether you like it or not. Sarah has shown she has no sense and it is a pity if her daughter takes after her.

I stand by my opinon - whether you like it or not - that this is not a political situation. The fact that the British govt did not get involved makes it a personal/private trip and not political.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

I don't think that visiting orphanages is political, Sky. Would it have been more appropriate if they had visited such a place in their home country? I think the cutting ribbons comment was basically her saying she wants to be more involved in issues than just the mundane and luke warm "events" like ribbon cutting. Isn't that what everyone wanted: the young royals being more hands and actually "earning" their titles and priviledges? Once again, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The problem is IMHo that no them or us decide what is political or not but the Foreign Office. If Sarah really decided to go through with this TV-opportunity against government advice claiming her privileges as "private citizen", it's okay for her. what she doesn't see IMHo is that she endangers her daughter's position as junior Royals. And I'm afraid Beatrice's interview did not help their cause at all.

Because the government can do so much to put the Royals in their place if they want to. The Royals are still there on top of society because the politicians have decided to let them be there and pay for the necessary expenses. Believe me, the queen is well aware how this works. Charles either.

I don't see them as being amused by their young relatives trying to define their Royal role against the advice of the Foreign office, when Beatrice has not even cut one ribbon yet. And don't forget: there's a case of precedence out there. There are male line grandchildren of HM around who are more or less private citizens, even though they are in line in the one digit section. So if the government insists Her Majesty might well force the York princesses to agree to a statement by Buckingham Palace that because they want to follow their own call of duty when it comes to charity, they have appealed to Her Majesty to be granted the right to be just daughters of a duke with the title, style and precedence of Ladies Beatrice and Eugenie Mountbatten-Windsor...

 

[Menarue]

I stand by my opinon - whether you like it or not - that this is not a political situation. The fact that the British govt did not get involved makes it a personal/private trip and not political.

Whether a royal princess likes it or not anything she does is considered by the Government, if she wants to be a private person let her be one, I don´t think anyone in Britain would mind very much. The royal family have privileges and they don´t earn them by going off against their own Government´s advice. It is a shame but the best advice anyone could give Princess Beatrice is to not take her mother´s advice.

 

[kimebear]

Sarah should really encourage her daughters to be like the rest of the royals in such a situation. Go visit places like Saudi Arabia where atrocities against women abound proudly and publicly, say nothing, take the massive gifts of jewels and go back home.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Sarah should really encourage her daughters to be like the rest of the royals in such a situation. Go visit places like Saudi Arabia where atrocities against women abound proudly and publicly, say nothing, take the massive gifts of jewels and go back home.

I understand your point and you're right - though on thinking about it I don't see why you are a Royalist. For throughout history the Royal families were supporting cast for their souverain, nothing else and on going against that souverain's wishes they had to pay the price. Think about Leopold Wölfling! Royals do not only inherit privileges and precedence, they inherit duty as well. In former times they could retire to the countryside if they were lucky or were executed if they didn't do the bidding of the Head of the house, today they can get rid of their titles and become private citizens.

Noone forces the York princesses to support a system they don't feel they can accept. But IMHO there is no way they can keep their privileges and rank on being unsupportive.

 

[Menarue]

Sarah should really encourage her daughters to be like the rest of the royals in such a situation. Go visit places like Saudi Arabia where atrocities against women abound proudly and publicly, say nothing, take the massive gifts of jewels and go back home.

Or leave the governing to those that know how.

 

[kimebear]

I definitely support the monarchy (obviously ) and I agree that the Queen herself (or any other monarch) should remain above politics like any other diplomat. However, this particular trip encompasses more than day to day politics. It is a basic human rights issue. I think we can all agree that children being tied to beds and denied sunlight all day is a bad thing? Isn't there a time for decency and compassion to transcend politics? A lot of royalists would have preferred to remain in a time when royalty was all pagentry and pomp. When royals were given absolute deference and personal respect. When royals did clean charity work and kept themselves above their subjects. As we here talk about almost daily though, those times are changing and so is the role of the monarchy.

Prince Charles is constantly speaking about the environment and climate change. This is a noble thing for him to be doing by presenting facts and education on a controversial topic. So, are we to understand that it is only the "safe" issues that royals can be vocal about? You get approval and pats on the back for championing the fight against global warming, but if you champion the needs of the abused in a country that is seeking to become part of the EU, you get a slap on hand?

Sarah made this trip and she took her royal daughters with her. Their presence put a bigger spotlight on a horrible situation than had been reported on before.

Were the images shocking, of course they were, will this have helped, in the short term perhaps, long term no, because now when the European inspectors visit, it will all be shiny and new!

I think it is a bit naive to believe that the European inspectors would have ever been allowed within 500 yards of the inmates that were photographed during Sarah's visit. Everything would have been made all 'shiny and new' before they ever got there, or at least everything that they would have been allowed to see would have been. Yep, you're right. That's much better.