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  #441  
Old 07-23-2019, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
I don't think there was a problem with my question. You seem a little pressed.

It's an enduring tradition for monarchs to give hereditary peerage to family members. Antony Armstrong-Jones was given an earldom a year after his marriage to Princess Margaret. Sir Angus Ogilvy was offered an earldom too on his wedding to Princess Alexandra but declined.

And the list goes on..........

I don't think Princess Anne's husbands were not offered too or maybe you know something that I don't know.
No. If Beatrice and Edo ever want him to have a title, he'll have to start using his own, which whilst non't legal anywhere people would still use and respect.

The examples you site were in the 1960s and in one case refused and times have changed. And I'm not sure there's any definitive proof Mark Phillips was ever offered anything and IIRC lots of talk about how Tim Laurence wasn't. He's earned other honours since then. I think Mike Tindall would be closer to earning a knighthood for services to sport than anyone just for marrying a granddaughter. There's more chance she'll announce The Duke of York title will be recreated for Beatrice on her father's death, and there's no chance of that.

It obviously has lots of historical precedent but would needlessly very controversial, especially if Andrew is mired in the Epstein case at the time.
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  #442  
Old 07-23-2019, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
I don't think there was a problem with my question. You seem a little pressed.

It's an enduring tradition for monarchs to give hereditary peerage to family members. Antony Armstrong-Jones was given an earldom a year after his marriage to Princess Margaret. Sir Angus Ogilvy was offered an earldom too on his wedding to Princess Alexandra but declined.

And the list goes on..........

I don't think Princess Anne's husbands were not offered too or maybe you know something that I don't know.
It has not been a tradition for a long time and would not be expected or accepted today. Its believed that the queen did want Mark Phillips to have a title.. when Anne was pregnant but Anne was very much against the idea nad so was Mark so it did not happen. And by then in the late 1970s, I think the public would have been against the idea.. so it is not going to happen any more...
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  #443  
Old 07-23-2019, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
I don't think there was a problem with my question. You seem a little pressed.

It's an enduring tradition for monarchs to give hereditary peerage to family members. Antony Armstrong-Jones was given an earldom a year after his marriage to Princess Margaret. Sir Angus Ogilvy was offered an earldom too on his wedding to Princess Alexandra but declined.

And the list goes on..........

I don't think Princess Anne's husbands were not offered too or maybe you know something that I don't know.
But times change. In the 1960s the idea of a Princess NOT marrying a title was a different proposition than now. In the 1960s I don’t think William and Harry would have been allowed to marry Catherine or Meghan and Charles certainly would not have been allowed to marry Camilla.

I’m sorry if I sounded pressed. You are being kind, I sounded much more bitchy than that. It is the end of a long day, I’m tired and I should have counted to ten before hitting send (not that that’s any excuse). Any irritation comes simply from the fact this same topic was debated when Eugenie married Jack. Beatrice is in the same position as her sister and Zara. Neither Jack nor Mike were offered titles (that we know of). You asked a very civil question and I answered very uncivilly. My apologies to you.

Truth be told I abhor hereditary titles. I don’t think they have place in modern life. I don’t have a problem with the honours list or with life peerages - whether I think they have earned them or not, the people to whom they awarded have done something to earn them. I would also be against a life peerage for Edo, Jack or anyone else simply for getting married.

But on topic, if Edo & Beatrice are in love I hope they do marry. Beatrice seems like a lovely young woman. I would wish her nothing but happiness.
  #444  
Old 07-23-2019, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RoyalHighness 2002 View Post
No I don't think you're aggressive at all. In fact your point hits right at the truth for me. Beatrice and Eugenie have really been respectable for years but are always burdened with the mistakes of their parents. While some now harp on hate against certain members in the family, these two have been nit-picked and belittled for years. I'm happy it seems like since Eugenie's wedding the press have backed off and hopefully after Beatrice's, the girls charity work will be correctly covered.
I think it's great that they're being recognised as doing something other than partying and holidaying, and their parents substitute punching bags. It used to be you'd only know anything about Eugenie's patronages and other charity work through her Instagram, it was reported nowhere else, now it is. That said I do think it's been part of a deliberate York PR push since the success of the wedding - lots of very sympathetic articles about the family as a whole in Hello! and People.
  #445  
Old 07-23-2019, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
No. If Beatrice and Edo ever want him to have a title, he'll have to start using his own, which whilst non't legal anywhere people would still use and respect. The examples you site were in the 1960s and in one case refused and times have changed. And I'm not sure there's any definitive proof Mark Phillips was ever offered anything and IIRC lots of talk about how Tim Laurence wasn't. He's earned other honours since then. I think Mike Tindall would be closer to earning a knighthood for services to sport than anyone just for marrying a granddaughter. There's more chance she'll announce The Duke of York title will be recreated for Beatrice on her father's death, and there's no chance of that. It obviously has lots of historical precedent but would needlessly very controversial, especially if Andrew is mired in the Epstein case at the time.
Indeed.

Actually I also hope so.

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
It has not been a tradition for a long time and would not be expected or accepted today. Its believed that the queen did want Mark Phillips to have a title.. when Anne was pregnant but Anne was very much against the idea nad so was Mark so it did not happen. And by then in the late 1970s, I think the public would have been against the idea.. so it is not going to happen any more...
You said it right. Time's are changing.
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  #446  
Old 07-23-2019, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
But times change. In the 1960s the idea of a Princess NOT marrying a title was a different proposition than now. In the 1960s I don’t think William and Harry would have been allowed to marry Catherine or Meghan and Charles certainly would not have been allowed to marry Camilla.

I’m sorry if I sounded pressed. You are being kind, I sounded much more bitchy than that. It is the end of a long day, I’m tired and I should have counted to ten before hitting send (not that that’s any excuse). Any irritation comes simply from the fact this same topic was debated when Eugenie married Jack. Beatrice is in the same position as her sister and Zara. Neither Jack nor Mike were offered titles (that we know of). You asked a very civil question and I answered very uncivilly. My apologies to you.

Truth be told I abhor hereditary titles. I don’t think they have place in modern life. I don’t have a problem with the honours list or with life peerages - whether I think they have earned them or not, the people to whom they awarded have done something to earn them. I would also be against a life peerage for Edo, Jack or anyone else simply for getting married.

But on topic, if Edo & Beatrice are in love I hope they do marry. Beatrice seems like a lovely young woman. I would wish her nothing but happiness.
Don't worry. It's no big deal. I just asked that question because Princess Beatrice is the first-born of the Duke and since she's a woman she will not be able to inherit her father's title.

I find it to have more sense of urgency to bring up than her younger sister Eugenie.

But yes, time's are changing but I hope for the best for Edo and Beatrice. They are lovely people.
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  #447  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by VictoriaB View Post
No. We went through this with Jack. Personally I think pigs are more likely to be seen in a holding pattern over Windsor than the Queen is to give Edo, Jack or Louise's husband an Earldom.

If her daughter can be plain Mrs Phillips or Mrs Lawrence, Zara plain Mrs Tindall and Eugenie plain Mrs Brooksbank, Beatrice can be plain Mrs whatever.

To flip the question round though, why do you think the Queen should give Edo an Earldom?
Actually, Anne is not plain anything but rather HRH Anne, Princess Royal, Mrs Lawrence. Since titles do not pass down the maternal side in the UK RF unless Anne married a man with a title of his own she would carry her own but it does not pass to her son or daughter.

Princess Margaret's husband was the last daughter of a monarch to marry a commoner and have her husband given a title, I believe Anne based her choice on that marriage. I think she was upfront that anyone she married was getting her and nothing else, a sort of confirmation of real love and not a title and a Manor House!

I think and that Anne has always been a stickler for "proper" royal tradition and was making a name for herself Eventing. Any recognition she got she earned.

Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie are in exactly the same position as Anne, and with Anne having opted for continuity it would have been surprising if Jack had been given a title when he married Eugenie and Beatrice is in the same boat. Andrew's title will revert to the crown when he dies as he has no son to inherit it for all several ladies of the aristocracy have tried to challenge the laws of inheritance.
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  #448  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:14 AM
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Angus Ogilvy was later quoted as saying that he regretted turning down an earldom since he felt that it had set a precedence for Princess Anne doing the same. He did not like the prospect of the grandchildren of a monarch being without titles.
  #449  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:17 AM
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But he was born untitled; it's his father (Sir Angus Ogilvy) who turned down the earldom when marrying Princess Alexandra of Kent.
  #450  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
James Ogilvy was later quoted as saying that he regretted turning down an earldom since he felt that it had set a precedence for Princess Anne doing the same. He did not like the prospect of the grandchildren of a monarch being without titles.
Oh that's so sweet of him. But did you confuse him with his father, Angus?

I actually don't mind the royals having titles that's why I also asked from the start if Edo would most likely be granted one provided that The Duke of York's title will only merge with the Crown when he dies.

I asked it because I think Beatrice deserves it as the first-born.
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  #451  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
Oh that's so sweet of him. But did you confuse him with his father, Angus?
Yes, I did.
I don´t mind the royals having titles either. In fact I want them to have titles which makes me quite sad that another precedent might have been set by Archie not using the courtesy title he´s entitled to.
  #452  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Yes, I did.
I don´t mind the royals having titles either. In fact I want them to have titles which makes me quite sad that another precedent might have been set by Archie not using the courtesy title he´s entitled to.
I also think so too. I know we are living in the modern world and the idea of monarchy is changing but (call me traditional) one of the reasons why I got hooked with royalty was because of the prestige that comes along with their rank, title and style.

I know some people might argue that it's the modern world..... but titles give me fascination.

Anyhow, I never seen Beatrice as this happy with Edo. Is there any photo of them 3 yet? Bea, Edo and Wolfie?
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  #453  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:47 AM
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I also think he should be Prince Archie of Sussex.

I also don't understand whyn Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands' children are Count and Countesses, instead of Prince/Princesses; the Dutch Parliament gave a consent for their parent's marriage.

We all know that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex will inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title when his father dies; does it matter that Lady Louise Windsor will be then titled "Princess Louise of Edinburgh"? (James will become Earl of Wessex).

As for Beatrice and Edo - all the best and I am waiting for big announcement!
  #454  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
Oh that's so sweet of him. But did you confuse him with his father, Angus?

I actually don't mind the royals having titles that's why I also asked from the start if Edo would most likely be granted one provided that The Duke of York's title will only merge with the Crown when he dies.

I asked it because I think Beatrice deserves it as the first-born.
James did not turn down an earldom.. Angus Ogivly did. But apparently he later regretted it. and Edo is not royal, and wont get a title.
And times had changed by the time Anne was married in the 70s.. Neither she nor Mark wished for him to have a title.. and the public would have been very much aganst the idea... so there was no prospect ever of Beatrice or Eug's husbands being offered titles..
  #455  
Old 07-23-2019, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
Andrew's title will revert to the crown when he dies as he has no son to inherit it for all several ladies of the aristocracy have tried to challenge the laws of inheritance.
Those challenges are still coming up. The 2013 Act of Succession did make it very clear that the change was for the Royal Family, and definitely not applicable to any other titles.

Beatrice has a better chance of being created Duke of York, so to speak, after her father's death than any of the non royal aristocratic titles due to royal prerogative but that chance is basically nil.

Quote:
We all know that Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex will inherit the Duke of Edinburgh title when his father dies; does it matter that Lady Louise Windsor will be then titled "Princess Louise of Edinburgh"? (James will become Earl of Wessex).
Edward won't directly inherit it. If it happens his mother or brother will recreate it for him. Lady Louise is already legally Princess Louise, she just doesn't go by that. It's unlikely she will start to do so, I imagine she will be Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor until she marries. It's possible her brother will go by Earl of Wessex or maybe any of the current subsidiary titles Edward is given with the Dukedom, if any.
  #456  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:01 AM
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James did not turn down an earldom.. Angus Ogivly did. But apparently he later regretted it. and Edo is not royal, and wont get a title.
And times had changed by the time Anne was married in the 70s.. Neither she nor Mark wished for him to have a title.. and the public would have been very much aganst the idea... so there was no prospect ever of Beatrice or Eug's husbands being offered titles..
I did not say it was James, I corrected the person who said it was James. Edo is not a royal, we are already at it. But what we were trying to see if the Queen will give him a hereditary peerage title.

You don't have to be a royal to be given a title.

I don't know why people are bringing up Princess Anne's decision years ago. If the Queen decides to offer Edo a title and if Edo and Beatrice are up for it, then fine. But yes, times are changing.

I don't think the whole community of the UK and the Commonwealth Realms will be against it.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
I did not say it was James, I corrected the person who said it was James. Edo is not a royal, we are already at it. But what we were trying to see if the Queen will give him a hereditary peerage title.

You don't have to be a royal to be given a title.

I don't know why people are bringing up Princess Anne's decision years ago. If the Queen decides to offer Edo a title and if Edo and Beatrice are up for it, then fine. But yes, times are changing.

I don't think the whole community of the UK and the Commonwealth Realms will be against it.
It's being brought up because it's precedent. If every non titled man marrying a close female relative of the Queen was offered and accepted a title then it would be logical to assume that the same would be true of Jack Brooksbank and (maybe, not engaged yet) Edo MM.

However that's not the case and the Queen did not offer Jack anything so is unlike to offer Beatrice's future husband one. If he ever wanted one he could start using his own defunct one socially and people would start calling him that like they do for many other defunct title holders.

I don't think people in the UK or Commonwealth think very much about it at all, but I do think it would be controversial if it happened and it's not a road it's necessary to go down today. Their children aren't close to the throne so theoretical "Master Mapelli Mozzi" won't suddenly become King of the UK, as was the supposed reason Antony Armstrong-Jones was given one.

I think there would be more a case for giving Bea (and Eugenie etc) a Duchy as a present for equality, but that's no dice either for the Queen.
  #458  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
It's being brought up because it's precedent. If every non titled man marrying a close female relative of the Queen was offered and accepted a title then it would be logical to assume that the same would be true of Jack Brooksbank and (maybe, not engaged yet) Edo MM.

However that's not the case and the Queen did not offer Jack anything so is unlike to offer Beatrice's future husband one. If he ever wanted one he could start using his own defunct one socially and people would start calling him that like they do for many other defunct title holders.

I don't think people in the UK or Commonwealth think very much about it at all, but I do think it would be controversial if it happened and it's not a road it's necessary to go down today. Their children aren't close to the throne so theoretical "Master Mapelli Mozzi" won't suddenly become King of the UK, as was the supposed reason Antony Armstrong-Jones was given one.

I think there would be more a case for giving Bea (and Eugenie etc) a Duchy as a present for equality, but that's no dice either for the Queen.
I am not really interested about Jack or Eugenie.

My question was just really out of curiosity.

Being close to the throne or not is not a given reason for the Queen to offer hereditary peerage titles.

The reason why I am interested with Bea and Edo more than Eugenie and Jack is because, if Bea was only born male she would have used his father's subsidiary title and eventually be the 'Duchess of York' but that's not the case. It was supposed to be her birthright.
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  #459  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I don´t mind the royals having titles either. In fact I want them to have titles which makes me quite sad that another precedent might have been set by Archie not using the courtesy title he´s entitled to.
I agree!
In fact, I don't see the problem with granting such titles.
It's not like money or property goes along with them; it's just the name, and it simply sounds better!
So why would doing do create public resentment?
  #460  
Old 07-23-2019, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
I am not really interested about Jack or Eugenie.

My question was just out of curiosity and I think you are exaggerating things.

Being close to the throne or not is not a given reason for the Queen to offer hereditary peerage titles.

The reason why I am interested with Bea and Edo more than Eugenie and Jack is because, if Bea is only born male she would have used his father's subsidiary title and eventually be the 'Duchess of York' but that's not the case.
I admit, I have no idea if the Queen offered him anything over tea. I'll amend that it's highly unlikely and wasn't reported anywhere that he refused anything.

Being close to the throne is important in this case, to my eyes, because it increases the likelihood of being offered a title in the case of marriage, so that the Queen's sister can't be nicknamed "Mrs Jones" which was a caption of a beautiful picture of the bride Princess Margaret. And there are only so many titles that she actually has within the Crown that can be given, that's why Harry was considered likely to be DOS years before he married.

I agree it's interesting that if Bea was male she'd be Earl of Inverness and her wife would automatically be Countess, but I don't see that changing any time soon. Maybe in George's time if the monarchy still exists. It's more relevant to the future of the monarchy if Bea were able to inherit her father's title or be granted one of her own by her grandmother than if her husband should be given one simply for marrying a Princess in 2019.

It's also noteworthy that she didn't offer her eldest grandson a title upon marriage or that he didn't accept. But again there's no gossip that it was offered or even thought of.
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