Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future?

[Mirabel]

I am not saying these sales are necessarily legitimate.

But they do occur.
And at one time they did create a scandal when some of the nobility sold them. I believe reading that Lord Lichfield was one.

(In fact, the USA comic Doonesbury spoofed this, with a major character winning the lottery and using it to buy a title. He became Viscount St. Austell-in-the-Moor-Biggleswade-Brixham).

And I think it was Lord Bradford who campaigned to outlaw sales of fraudulent titles, when his own son's courtesy title was up for sale.

But all of this was some time ago.

 

[wyevale]

^ This is 'GOSPEL', Mbruno - purchasing a 'Lordship of the Manor' entitles the holder of the piece of paper to NOTHING beyond an extinct feudal 'right'..

I've told this story her before, so forgive me, if I bore you with it again]. When I worked in International Banking I had an American Client who 'invested' in one, hoping to buy a veneer of grandeur wholly lacking from his family and life [despite having POTS of money].
He INSISTED on being addressed as 'your Lordship' both in person, and in correspondence, and [obv] 'your Ladyship' for the [3rd] wife.
When I backed up my [and the Bank's refusal] to co-operate with confirmation from the College of Heralds, he was outraged, went to my boss , claiming to have been 'humiliated'.
My boss, married [as luck would have it] to the daughter of a Marquess, and fearfully grand himself, was having 'none of it' and fortunately backed me to the hilt..
But increasingly unpleasant legal letters were batted to and fro for MONTHS, until he withdrew ALL his funds, and went to try to 'buy' compliance elsewhere.
We felt we were 'well rid' of him..

 

[Denville]

I am not saying these sales are necessarily legitimate.

But they do occur.
And at one time they did create a scandal when some of the nobility sold them. I believe reading that Lord Lichfield was one.

(In fact, the USA comic Doonesbury spoofed this, with a major character winning the lottery and using it to buy a title. He became Viscount St. Austell-in-the-Moor-Biggleswade-Brixham).

And I think it was the late Duke of Bedford who campaigned to outlaw sales of fraudulent titles, when his own son's courtesy title was up for sale.

But all of this was some time ago.

Lord Lichfield? what title did he sell? It is not possible to sell titles... and I cannot imaigine htat anyone in the peerage would do such a thing.. particularly soemoene who is a cousin of the queens...

 

[tommy100]

I don't think Eugenie will give up her title after the wedding, this wedding is not the wedding of someone who is about to give up HRH status IMO.

 

[Mirabel]

Lord Lichfield? what title did he sell? It is not possible to sell titles... and I cannot imaigine htat anyone in the peerage would do such a thing.. particularly soemoene who is a cousin of the queens...

I don't know that he actually went through with it, and I recall reading that the whole thing annoyed the Queen.

Of course I know it isn't possible to actually sell such titles; I should have said that they were only selling the use of the name.

Then there are the sites that sell fraudulent ones.

But there is a market for such things, genuine or not.

 

[Denville]

I don't know that he actually went through with it, and I recall reading that the whole thing annoyed the Queen.

Of course I know it isn't possible to actually sell such titles; I should have said that they were only selling the use of the name.

Then there are the sites that sell fraudulent ones.

But there is a market for such things, genuine or not.

why one earth would Lichfield do soemting that is not legal, is he so hard up for cash? Just checked,hadn't realised that he died so long ago, but I can't find a story on his attempting to sell a title....

 

[CyrilVladisla]

I sincerely believe that Eugenie will keep her title of Princess. Even if Jack does not receive a title, Then so be it! TITLES DO NOT MAKE THE PERSON. THEIR ACTIONS DO.

 

[Osipi]

The title problem is very easily solved. In the circles Eugenie travels in, most of the people within them are not strangers. All she has to do is say "just call me Eugenie" and the issue of how to address her is resolved.

I've been married twice which spans over 45 years and very rarely am addressed as "Mrs. X". If I am, it sounds totally foreign to me. In fact, when I first married years ago, I was sitting at my kitchen table with my mother-in-law and the phone rang asking for Mrs. X. I handed the phone to her. Go figure.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I sincerely believe that Eugenie will keep her title of Princess. Even if Jack does not receive a title, Then so be it! TITLES DO NOT MAKE THE PERSON. THEIR ACTIONS DO.

Why would she lose the style of Princess? Alexandra - also a male line granddaughter of a monarch didn't when she married. She is the last such person to marry and has remained Princess Alexandra since her marriage.

The only way Eugenie would lose HRH and Princess is if there were new LPs issued to reduce those who are HRH Prince/Princess to the children of the heir apparent only. I can see that happening at some time in the future - possibly as early as when Charles becomes King so that even Harry's children don't change from Lord/Lady to Prince/Princess (assuming that HM doesn't issue LPs to grand them that style from birth).

If Charles does want to make the BRF smaller than that is a step he will have to take at some point and better to do it early rather than later. It is why I believe Edward had the Queen deny his children the style of HRH by using only 'her will' rather than LPs so that those who already had HRH from birth but from younger sons didn't lose it. If he does that he will either have to make an exception for those who have had it from birth but no longer qualify OR he will have to strip them,as George V did in 1917. Maybe encouraging the girls to give it up voluntarily would be a good way to go anyway

The fact that Charlotte's children won't be entitled to HRH but Louis' will and yet Charlotte's children will be higher in the line of succession to Louis' is also going to require new LPs - either to make the number of royals larger in number by having Charlotte's children as HRHs or to restrict them to only the children of the heir apparent and his/her line - so George's children but not Charlotte's or Louis' or Harry's.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It would surprise me pig simply becaus that would require a new title for her.

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot think of any royal born prince(ss) in Europe who lost their royal rank in the late 20th or 21st century, except due to marrying without the consent of the monarch in countries like Denmark.

It felt weird to Philip and Henrik, but they also grew up in a time where reigning queens were not so common. I suspect having years of three simultaneous monarchies headed by women (Elizabeth, Margarethe, Beatrix) will have made the Prince Consort title feel much more normal to men like Daniel and whomever eventually become the next generation of consorts in Belgium, Spain, Sweden and the Netherlands.

Norway also has a female heir, although as far as I know there has been no decision about her future husband's title.

If Charles does want to make the BRF smaller than that is a step he will have to take at some point and better to do it early rather than later. It is why I believe Edward had the Queen deny his children the style of HRH by using only 'her will' rather than LPs so that those who already had HRH from birth but from younger sons didn't lose it. If he does that he will either have to make an exception for those who have had it from birth but no longer qualify OR he will have to strip them,as George V did in 1917. Maybe encouraging the girls to give it up voluntarily would be a good way to go anyway

The 1917 letters patent made an exception for those who no longer qualified (for the style of HH) but who had been granted their style by letters patent, which included the Fifes and Schleswig-Holsteins. It's very likely that any new letters patent would allow those who already have HRH to retain it.

 

[Pranter]

I'm not sure about the reduction of family anymore ...I have noticed in the last year it seems like we have seen the York girls more at BRF engagements officially (a state dinner included)...makes me wonder if they aren't going to be part of the working family.




LaRae

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

I'm not sure about the reduction of family anymore ...I have noticed in the last year it seems like we have seen the York girls more at BRF engagements officially (a state dinner included)...makes me wonder if they aren't going to be part of the working family.




LaRae

While I agree with you about seeing them more which I enjoy, I don't think its because they are becoming part of the working Firm. Rather, it seems like they are stepping more into the role of the Michael's of Kent, who are obviously not working royals but attend the events where the "Family' aspect of the BRF is needed. B and E already attend the smaller events such as BP receptions, garden parties and such but will start to go to more official things as we have seen, like state banquets and services of more national caliber (Remembrance Day). Their names have also it seems been added to events where a royal attends each year ( National Scout Service, Big Curry Lunch)

 

[Iluvbertie]

Beatrice did the Scout Service this year but ... it was NOT an official engagement for her. When Sophie or Kate does it it is in the CC but not when Beatrice does it.

Other than the CHOGM events and the garden parties the only event that isn't on the 'normal' set of engagements for the girls was Beatrice getting a mention for the fashion show she attended with Kate and Sophie and it was a solo entry in the CC.

Other than that one event anything else she, or Eugenie, has done this year has been unofficial - as in past years. So far their names have appeared in the CC 7 times each which is more than normal but only because of CHOGM.

It will be interesting to see if either of them attend the State Visit from the Netherlands later this year. I would suspect not.

I have not been told about either of them attending the Big Curry Lunch. If you have a link I would love to see it so I can add it to the 'unofficial engagements'.

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

I have not been told about either of them attending the Big Curry Lunch. If you have a link I would love to see it so I can add it to the 'unofficial engagements'.

Of course, here you go. https://www.instagram.com/p/BhcpH4JAVHD/?hl=en&taken-by=princesseugenie

 

[Iluvbertie]

Thanks - I have it as a 'reception' not as a 'lunch' which is why I didn't recognise the event.

 

[Pranter]

I guess time will tell...prior to last year I was pretty convinced they would not be working royals at all .just out for the family events. Now I'm not sure. It will be interesting to see what happens after Eugenie marries.


LaRae

 

[Mbruno]

Nobody expected a televised wedding, but we now know it will be televised. Although the odds are still close to zero, I hope we will be also surprised with a title for Jack on the wedding day !

 

[CyrilVladisla]

If Jack receives a title, what is the least amount of time the news can be announced before the wedding?

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

If Jack receives a title, what is the least amount of time the news can be announced before the wedding?

The day of the wedding, like what was done for Harry.

 

[Madame Verseau]

If Jack gets a title will he go to work for the Firm and give up his job at Casamigos? If not it's not fair. Women who marry into the BRF have to give up their careers when they take titles.

 

[Osipi]

I really can't think of any reason whatsoever why Jack would be given a title upon marriage. I sincerely believe that Eugenie will be HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Brooksbank after the wedding.

Perhaps in time, though, if there is a good reason for it, Jack may be knighted and elevated to Sir Jack Brooksbank. Depends on the monarch at the time.

 

[Iluvbertie]

There is no way they will be giving Jack a title. The last Princess whose husband was given a title was Princess Margaret. Alexandra's husband wasn't and she is the granddaughter of a monarch - same as Eugenie. Princess Anne has had two husbands - neither of whom were given titles. Why would Eugenie's husband get what hasn't been done now for well over half a century??

 

[Ish]

If Jack gets a title will he go to work for the Firm and give up his job at Casamigos? If not it's not fair. Women who marry into the BRF have to give up their careers when they take titles.

No. This isn’t really like being compared with like (and isn’t exactly accurate).

Women who have married British princes have entered into the royal family. Women who have married British princes who themselves are working royals (or are expected to be working royals) have been expected to become working royals (ie Diana, Sarah, Camilla, Kate, and Meghan); women who have married British princes who are not working royals and are not expected to be working royals, were themselves not expected to become working royals (Princess Michael). Sophie actually started as the latter, but as her husband’s career failed and her career caused controversy because of her being a royal, both she and Edward ended up becoming working royals.

Men who have married British princesses have not become royals themselves (the exception being the DoE, who married the heir), and thus have not had any expectation of being working royals. Instead, they’ve continued their careers regardless of whether or not they received titles.

 

[Mbruno]

There is no way they will be giving Jack a title. The last Princess whose husband was given a title was Princess Margaret. Alexandra's husband wasn't and she is the granddaughter of a monarch - same as Eugenie. Princess Anne has had two husbands - neither of whom were given titles. Why would Eugenie's husband get what hasn't been done now for well over half a century??

Angus Ogilvy and Mark Phillips were actually offered titles, but they declined them. Timothy Laurence is actually the only example of a royal husband who apparently was not offered a title, but his case is somewhat different from the previous ones as it was the second marriage of a divorced princess. I don’t think we can say for sure that there is a precedent for not offering peerages to royal husbands.

 

[jacqui24]

Both Alexandra and Anne are working royals, so I can understand, especially at that time, since it’d make them countesses. But what would Jack need a title for? He’s still going back to work like he’s always done. As is Eugenie.

 

[Rudolph]

Looks like there might be a title coming for Eugenie and Jack?? As of today she is still to be called HRH Princess Eugenie of York (not Brooksbank). However, it seems that might not remain the case in the near future ...

Via Chris Ship ITV Twitter

 

[jacqui24]

She wouldn't be Princess Eugenie of Brooksbank. Why would it not be the case in the future? If HMQ was going to give them a title, it'd be done this morning like it's always done in her reign for members of her family. The only way I can see a title for Jack after today is if Eugenie gives up her HRH and they still want her to have some kind of title. Neither of which I see happening.

ETA: So apparently Earl of Snowden was given just days before Margaret and Tony's son was born. So not unprecedent. However, that was entirely different situation. Eugenie's future children won't be grandchild of a king and they aren't just one family away from the throne either. Which in the days of Earl of Snowden, the Queen only had young children.

 

[ACO]

Oh that will be very interesting to see the reason for giving them a titles especially as non working royals. I can see the talk starting already,

So any guess? Countess? Though wouldn't this happen before the wedding?

Guess we shall see.

 

[Pranter]

She will be Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank. ...she doesn't give up her title.


LaRae

 

[Ista]

Looks like there might be a title coming for Eugenie and Jack?? As of today she is still to be called HRH Princess Eugenie of York (not Brooksbank). However, it seems that might not remain the case in the near future ...

Via Chris Ship ITV Twitter

I'd be surprised, but a lot of things about this wedding have been a delightful surprise, so who knows? I guess we'll see.