Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future?


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
As it is now, it appears that all women in the British royal family are required to be called by their husband's first name. I wonder if Queen Elizabeth II's granddaughters will be granted permission one day to be Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Brooksbank and Mrs. Zara Tindall instead of Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank and Mrs. Michael Tindall.

I don't think its a hard and fast and set in stone rule but up until the past couple of decades, was just the way things were done. I don't think many women actually go by their husband's first name on purpose unless they're in grade school and crushing on someone and writing Mrs. (his name) all over their notebooks.

Through two marriages that both lasted over 20 years, I never once referred to myself as Mrs. (his name). Its just not who I am.
 
:previous: I agree, Osipi, that the Princess Eugene and Prince Eugenie sound odd to us. And I have fought for civil rights all my life. But we are American and we only have a borrowed oar in the lake on this issue.

I dream of equality for all over all the world. But I am a realist. And I think it will be an interesting several decades to come as the UK moves through time and thinks/rethinks primogeniture. Or not.
 
Maybe in some ways, the issue of primogeniture isn't something that should be messed with. As with the monarchy, the aristocracy dates way back into British history and in keeping the traditions and the old ways of doing things makes everything seem to have more of a sense of continuity.

Start modernizing everything to conform to today and a lot of the past is lost. Just another way of looking at something.
 
"Titles and styles, like dignities, precedence, distinctions, orders and decorations, emanate from the sovereign who is the fons honorum, fount of all honors."

This means the sovereign can end the practice of referring to the wives of HRHs by their husband's names. Princess Michael becomes Princess Marie-Christine.

I realize that under current usage this would imply that Marie-Christine is a princess in her own right, not by marriage, but that isn't written in stone. For example, after the Queen's uncle the Duke of Gloucester died his wife was allowed to use the title and style "HRH Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester." So it has been done.

So if Princess Michael is known as HRH Princess Marie-Christine then Princess Charlotte's husband (should she have one) becomes HRH Prince [given name].

I don't think this will happen during QE II's reign. As someone pointed out in another forum, she prefers the current, traditional customs. But perhaps it will change under Charles or William.

Start modernizing everything to conform to today and a lot of the past is lost. Just another way of looking at something.

In terms of gender discrimination, I say good riddance!
 
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As it is now, it appears that all women in the British royal family are required to be called by their husband's first name. I wonder if Queen Elizabeth II's granddaughters will be granted permission one day to be Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Brooksbank and Mrs. Zara Tindall instead of Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank and Mrs. Michael Tindall.
But we do have Lady Helen Taylor, lady Davina Lewis and lady Rose Gilman, don't we?
 
Princess Alice of Albany's husband Prince Alexander of Teck took the earldom of Athlone.
Alexander of Teck didn't get his earldom because he married a granddaughter of Queen Victoria but he was granted an earldom when he, like the rest of the royal clan, relinquished his German titles in 1917.
 
Maybe we should embrace gender equality truly. Jack should not be made an earl. Eugenie should be made a Countess, with the remainder made to be equal inheritance. They could do as the Spanish and Swedes do, and allow the spouses to use their wive's titles (Daniel, Inaki) or something else. Pave the way for perhaps the parliament to see to modernizing other peerages.
 
But we do have Lady Helen Taylor, lady Davina Lewis and lady Rose Gilman, don't we?
We do but their styling conforms to the customs of the aristocracy and has nothing to do with their respective fathers being princes. Daughters of a peer who marry an untitled man are always styled as The Lady - First Name - Husband's Surname.
 
What is not open for criticism these days?

In 1990 Mr Denis Thatcher was created Baronet Thatcher, of Scotney. His son Mark is the current 2nd Baronet.

In 1983 Mr Harold Macmillan was created Earl of Stockton and Viscount Macmillan of Ovenden. His son Alexander is the current 2nd Earl and his grandson Daniel is the current Viscount.

So the precedents are there.

Yes, but those aren't necessarily good precedents. The Thatcher baronetcy in particular was very controversial.
 
Maybe in some ways, the issue of primogeniture isn't something that should be messed with. As with the monarchy, the aristocracy dates way back into British history and in keeping the traditions and the old ways of doing things makes everything seem to have more of a sense of continuity.

Start modernizing everything to conform to today and a lot of the past is lost. Just another way of looking at something.

Off-topic, but the goal of male primogeniture was to keep the title and, more importantly, the estate (as the two used to be linked by entailment) in the family of the last holder rather than transferring it to the family of his sons-in-law (using the patrilineal definition of family). That was done sometimes at the expense of proximity of blood, as in the aforementioned Downton Abbey scenario where the heir was a fifth cousin at the expense of the title holder's eldest daughter for example.

Male preference cognatic primogeniture, as was used in the succession to the crown in England and some other European countries, tried to reach a compomise between those two conflicting goals. When the firstborn was a girl, but she had a younger brother, the brother and his descendants had precedence in the succession over the sister and her descendants to prioritize keeping the crown as long as possible in the same dynasty (otherwise, if the female became queen and had children bearing her husband's name, a new dynasty would take over). However, if the king had no direct descendants in male line, then his daughters and their respective descendants would have precedence over collateral male lines to prioritize proximity of blood.

The purpose of male preference seems to have been made irrelevant though when royal families like the Orange-Nassaus started to keep their dynasty name even in maternal line (theoretically, the last Dutch monarch of the dynasty should have been Queen Wilhelmina). Alternatively, they could use hyphenated names like Habsburg-Lorraine, or Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, or, if you will, Mountbatten-Windsor.

Of course, one can always argue that male preference had nothing to do with family names, but rather with a more basic belief at the time that men were better equipped to rule than women.

So if Princess Michael is known as HRH Princess Marie-Christine then Princess Charlotte's husband (should she have one) becomes HRH Prince [given name].

I don't think this will happen during QE II's reign. As someone pointed out in another forum, she prefers the current, traditional customs. But perhaps it will change under Charles or William.
That would not be a good solution in my humble opinion. I prefer a compromise between tradition and gender equality:

1) Husbands and wives of children of the monarch should be made HRHs and princes/princesses in their own right (like Mathilde, Claire and Lorenz in Belgium for example) and could use their own names after HRH Prince/Princess .

2) In the case of grandchildren of the monarch though, only husbands or wives of the children of the heir should be made HRHs and princes/princesses in their own right. Wives of other royal grandsons who are princes would use their husband's title by courtesy (like Princess Amedeo in Belgium or Princess Michael in the UK) while husbands of other royal granddaughters who are princesses should use their own names (like Mr. Jack Brooksbank).

As implied in (2) above, I favor the generous policy of making all persons born as grandchildren of a monarch HRHs and princes/princesses (again as in Belgium) as opposed to leaving that titular dignity and style only to children of the heir as it is now done in the Netherlands, or restricting it to male-line grandchildren as in the UK. In other words, I think people in the same situation as Zara and Peter for example should also be princes/princesses.
 
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:previous:

I concur with much of your explanation of male and male-preference primogeniture. However, the policy of keeping the dynasty name in maternal line (and affixing the husband's name to it) when a woman became the queen regnant goes back centuries in European kingdoms; the children of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom were the anomaly in the 19th century.

Concerning Queen Maria II of Portugal, her children were given the surname "de Bragança e Bourbon Saxe Cobourg Gotha" at their baptisms, as news articles stated around the time. "Bourbon" indicated their descendance from Queen Carlota Joaquina, an Infanta of Spain. The surname was shortened sometimes to "de Bragança e Bourbon".

By the way, giving the patrilineal dynasty name and arms to Queen Victoria and Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha's children also attracted criticism in England.
December 5th. [1841] […] The Queen and Prince are very anxious to allot to this Baby [the Prince of Wales] his armorial bearings, and they wish that he should quarter the arms of Saxony with the Royal arms of England, because Albert is alleged to be Duke of Saxony. […] but now the Heralds (and others who have considered the matter) think that the Saxon arms ought not to be foisted upon the Royal arms of England. It is her inveterate predilection for everything German (a disagreeable peculiarity in her character) which makes her insist on this being done, and she wants it to be done offhand at the next Council without going through the usual forms of a reference and report.

December 9th. Saw Graham again yesterday about this business. They have gazetted the child 'Duke of Saxony,' which is very absurd, and at Lady Holland's, last night, the precedence given to that title over the English titles was much criticised.

The Greville Memoirs, 1938, vol. 4, p. 432-33:

Royal Styles and Titles of Great Britain: Documents


We do but their styling conforms to the customs of the aristocracy and has nothing to do with their respective fathers being princes. Daughters of a peer who marry an untitled man are always styled as The Lady - First Name - Husband's Surname.

That is true, and I think this custom has an explanation: "Lady Timothy Taylor" would misleadingly imply that Lady Helen's husband was Lord Timothy Taylor.
 
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One article had mentioned that Jack Brooksbank be given the title of Baron Brooksbank. However, the Brooksbank Baronetcy, of Healaugh Manor, in the parish of Healaugh, in the West Riding of the County of York, is a title in the Baronetage of the United Kingdom.
 
I probably missed it...but if his family used to hold a title why don't they now?


LaRae
 
I probably missed it...but if his family used to hold a title why don't they now?


LaRae

They do. He is just not descended from the eldest son.

The 1st baron had 2 sons (at least 2 sons). The eldest was William, who was 2nd baron. Its William's son Nicholas who is Baron Brooksbank. The younger of the 1st baron's sons was Captain Stamp Brooksbank. Stamp was Jack's grandfather. So his father George is 1st cousins of Baron Brooksbank.

He is also descended from the earl of Leicester, but through not only a junior branch (12th of 15 children of the 2nd earl) but the female line (a granddaughter of the earl).

One article had mentioned that Jack Brooksbank be given the title of Baron Brooksbank. However, the Brooksbank Baronetcy, of Healaugh Manor, in the parish of Healaugh, in the West Riding of the County of York, is a title in the Baronetage of the United Kingdom.

The current baronet, Jack's father's cousin, is titled Sir Brooksbank, 3rd Baronet.

If Jack was made a baron, it would likely be a Baron (peerage) not baronetcy. He would be titled Jack Brooksbank, The 1st Baron Brooksbank.

Though Barons there can be more then one of the same name. Common enough. Baron Grey is a good example. They simply have a different designation. Baron Grey of......
 
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The titles of Baron and Baronet are not the same. A Baron is a Peer with the style of Lord while a Baronet is a commoner with the style of Sir. It's sort of a hereditary Knighthood.
 
I hope so but I don't think so. I hope so because they're blood Princesses and should get the same treatment as Princess Margaret. If so, I vote for Earl and Countess of Nottingham or Earl and Countess of Suffolk. I know Anne didn't want a title and from what I've read, Sir Angus didn't get one because he was already and Honorable. Don't quote me lol
 
Anne not having her husbands get titles set a new standard - no titles for the husbands of Princesses unless said Princess is the heiress apparent - so no titles for Eugenie's, Beatrice's or in time Charlotte's husbands.
 
Even so, couldn't the Queen bestow a title on Jack (in Eugenie's situation)? Assuming they wanted one to begin with?


LaRae
 
Even so, couldn't the Queen bestow a title on Jack (in Eugenie's situation)? Assuming they wanted one to begin with?


LaRae
The Queen can obviously bestow titles to anyone she wants. However, given the circumstances, would she is the question.
 
She could but she knows that the British people don't want more people with titles. The Yorks are already the most despised branch of the family and this would only further alienate them from the British people.

It would be a step backwards as the last princess whose husband was given a title was Princess Margaret over half a century ago. There have been three husbands since then - Angus Ogilvy, Mark Philips and Tim Laurence with no titles.

I would expect if she did think along these lines she would consult with Charles and William and also the PM and I get the clear feeling they would all sound a resounding NO.
 
Right and if they aren't going to be working Royals either then yeah...makes sense. So the York girls, unless they marry a man with a title their husbands will be Mister's and their children will carry no title either. York will revert back to the Crown at Andrews passing.


LaRae
 
The British people don't want more people on the pay roll. :ermm:

Titles don't come with a job, money, an estate or anything that costs the tax payers anything. Nor does it mean that Eugenie or her husband would be working royals. Plenty of private citizens with titles out there.

The issue they need to consider is how archaic do they want to continue looking? They need to keep traditions alive, but need to show that they can modernize with culture as well. They will allow a woman to be heir but they treat any other women like second class citizens???

What happens with Charlotte when she marries?? Will her husband not get a title?? Will she not get a title?? Why is it if she was born first, she would be Princess of Wales, but born second she wont have a title of her own???

If Margaret set the new way, how does that not apply to all women? If Eugenie and Beatrice shouldn't get a title, why should Charlotte?

They really need to consider how people look at the sexist way things are done. Maybe they should consider when they create Harry's title, that it should be inheritable by women. That decision can be made when created. Because if Meghan and Harry have only daughters, it would be nice if they showed the move to the 21st century other royal houses have made, and their daughters could actually inherit. Especially if they have a child before Charles is king, and that child is not a prince/ss.

But sadly they likely wont modernize soon enough for Eugenie.
 
If Andrew remarries and has a son - which he can do at any time in his life then that son will inherit York.

The Queen could also reissue the LPs - allowing the title to pass to Beatrice (which I don't think she would do).

In addition there is regularly a 'private members' bill put up to allow women equal inheritance rights for all titles as happens now with the Crown. If that were to happen, and they didn't have a start date later than Beatrice's birth for all such titles then it could also be inherited by her.
 
The issue they need to consider is how archaic do they want to continue looking? They need to keep traditions alive, but need to show that they can modernize with culture as well. They will allow a woman to be heir but they treat any other women like second class citizens???

What happens with Charlotte when she marries?? Will her husband not get a title?? Will she not get a title?? Why is it if she was born first, she would be Princess of Wales, but born second she wont have a title of her own???

If Margaret set the new way, how does that not apply to all women? If Eugenie and Beatrice shouldn't get a title, why should Charlotte?

They really need to consider how people look at the sexist way things are done. Maybe they should consider when they create Harry's title, that it should be inheritable by women. That decision can be made when created. Because if Meghan and Harry have only daughters, it would be nice if they showed the move to the 21st century other royal houses have made, and their daughters could actually inherit. Especially if they have a child before Charles is king, and that child is not a prince/ss.

But sadly they likely wont modernize soon enough for Eugenie.

While it is true that Elizabeth II and Charles III likely will discourage modernization, there is a chance that future governments might want it. A recent government disclosed its intention to resolve "intrinsic inequalities in the courtesy titles system" for spouses in 2016.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/...ments/written-question/Lords/2016-06-13/HL662

I too expect Jack to remain Mr. Jack Brooksbank in the near future, but should Eugenie and Jack remain married in 50 years, the British royal family may have TRH Princess Eugenie and Prince Jack or TRH Princess and Prince Eugenie in 2068.
 
The 'best' Mr Brooksbank can hope for is a Knighthood, which he could earn by lengthy and sterling work for a recognised 'good cause'.
 
She could but she knows that the British people don't want more people with titles.

How do you know that for sure ? I don't think the British people have ever expressed opposition in opinion polls to the creation of new titles in the hereditary peerage, especially now that hereditary peers no longer automatically sit in the House of Lords and peerages are just honorific titles anyway.

There might be opposition to the creation of new royal titles as most people still equate being an HRH with certain privileges and public funding, but that is not the discussion here since Jack would not be a royal even if he were made a baron or an earl.
 
I don't get why anyone would care about a title being issued when there is nothing that goes with it (land, money etc). Who cares if Jack is Baron Brooksbank instead of Mister?


LaRae
 
Since there have been no creations of hereditary peerages (I think Marg Thatrcher created one or 2) in a long time now I'm assuming that poltiicans and the RF feel that the public mood is against it.. and Anne and Mark did not want a title.. for him and their children. They felt that they would prefer Mark himelf and his kids to get on in the world without this.. and that it would look bad if he "only got the title for marryng the queen's daughter"..
I'm sure that Eugenie and Jack would feel the same way....
 
:previous:


That is true, and I think this custom has an explanation: "Lady Timothy Taylor" would misleadingly imply that Lady Helen's husband was Lord Timothy Taylor.

A woman keeps her title or honorific prefix when she marries someone "of lower rank" so to speak. So, for example, the daughter of a duke or earl who has the style Lady [Name] [Family Name] becomes Lady [Name] [Husband's Family Name] when she marries Mr. [Husband's Family Name]. Likewise, HRH Princess [xxx] when marrying a peer becomes HRH Princess [xxx], [Female version of her husband's peerage] . If the same princess married someone who was untitled, she would become HRH Princess [xxx], Mrs.[Husband's Name and Family Name], but she would always remain a princess and an HRH anyway, just as the daughter of a duke, marquess or earl always remains a "Lady".

My understanding is, however, that, when a woman marries a husband of "higher rank", then she uses the husband's higher title and style only. Hence, Lady Diana Spencer became HRH The Princess of Wales or Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon became HRH The Duchess of York and, later, HM The Queen.

The complication arises when a princess of the royal blood (for example, from another royal house) marries a prince. According to the more knowledgeable British posters here, while their husbands were alive, Princess Alexandra of Denmark or Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark were styled as any other wife of a British prince, i.e. as HRH The Princess of Wales and HRH The Duchess of Kent, rather than being styled as HRH Princess Alexandra, Princess of Wales or HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent to signify that they had been born princesses in their own right (which IMHO would be more appropriate).

Some people have speculated that, if Princess Madeleine had married Prince William, she might have been called in the long title "HRH Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Cambridge, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland" and that their children could have been "HRH Prince/Princess [xxx] of Cambridge and Sweden". However, as noted above, there is no precedent for those styles in recent British history according to posters here. So, most likely, she would have been just "HRH The Duchess of Cambridge" (which would be a demotion for Madeleine BTW ) and the children would have been simply "HRH Prince/Princess [xxx] of Cambridge".
 
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Since there have been no creations of hereditary peerages (I think Marg Thatrcher created one or 2) in a long time now I'm assuming that poltiicans and the RF feel that the public mood is against it.. and Anne and Mark did not want a title.. for him and their children. They felt that they would prefer Mark himelf and his kids to get on in the world without this.. and that it would look bad if he "only got the title for marryng the queen's daughter"..
I'm sure that Eugenie and Jack would feel the same way....

Reading through this thread, this same reason was forming in my head and I'm going to say I think you've hit it right on the money here.

The days of the hereditary peer among the British population is being phased out. The House of Lords seat isn't guaranteed to a hereditary peer anymore simply because of his birth and his title. Peerages that are now being created and granted are lifetime peerages only specific to the person.

I'm also in agreement with Mbruno that there is still the opportunity for Jack Brooskbank to be knighted but that is going to have to be on his own merits and not simply because he married the granddaughter of the Queen. Most people today, I believe, would rather receive something because of their own individual selves rather that just because of a marriage. Its called having a sense of one's individuality.

So, I don't see a title being in the cards for Jack at all. I don't think he or Eugenie are expecting one either.
 
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