Duties and Roles of Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie 1: Discussion Until 2022

[Roslyn]

Thank you, Roslyn. I read this but it doesn't concern Royal titles or the titles of foreign Royals married to British citizens, just the titles of nobility which were acquired through foreign service (eg The duke of Wellington had been granted the title of a Spanish (or Portugese?) count and his heirs use it. Other British citizens worked for the emperor, so were granted titles of the Holy Roman empire).

I can't find anything specifically addressing the issue, but I think the answer lies in general principles.

A member of a foreign Royal family who is not the sovereign is really only a commoner unless he/she has a title, and would be caught by the provisions relating to nobility if he/she has a title. If they have a foreign title they will be be required to acknowledge at the time they apply for British citizenship that the title will not receive official recognition. That person might be known as "HRH" in their own country but the HRH is only a style, not a title, and any "Prince" or "Princess" attached to it is only a courtesy title. Once out of the home monarch's domain, the courtesy title means nothing unless HM recognises it, which she can do at her whim, and seems to have done in the 1981 case. And I am sure it all goes back to the "divided loyalty" argument relied on in Arundell of Wardour.

 

[Lamyah]

I only reacted to your saying that Camilla has "yet to earn her keep", that says IMHO that she is a kept woman. So I had the impression that this was your opinion and was curious why you would say this when Camilla is married to the man who pays for her keep...

She's 'kept' by the public as a senior royal member who is married to a future King of England. In other words on tax payer's keep until they decide otherwise.

The visits are purely on a private basis, for the good of the men and women she meets, not to bulk up her image.No we cannot agree that Andrew does a good job, nor do his daughters, whatever their age.

As already stated by Charlotte1, all 'informal' visits by Camilla or Charles are published and on public display. No need to have 20 different cameras to do your job.

The best bet for Andrew and his daughters, IMO, is to lose the HRH and fade into obscurity in America.

you lost me there.

The link you provided that has Tim O'Donovan's figures don't show private meetings, only the public ones which are in The Court Circular, therefore we still don't know about the private briefings that Andrew has. (or other royals except Charles and Camilla as Clarence House does publish those details)

As far as not paying for a private visit, the Trade and Investment board expenses are audited, if Andrew used them to pay for his hotel, trip expenses when he wasn't on an official visit, the information can be discovered and more than likely become front page news! It hasn't, hasn't in the past either so while it's easy to criticise that he attaches a private visit to a public one, it doesn't follow that he uses their money to pay for it. The Trade and Investment board are accountable for their expenses, as is Andrew when he's on an official trip with them.

Thanks for the info, I'm a stickler for facts and reasonable arguments

 

[ysbel]

Why don't we stick to Beatrice and Eugenie?

 

[Skydragon]

She's 'kept' by the public as a senior royal member who is married to a future King of England. In other words on tax payer's keep until they decide otherwise.

No tax payers money pays for the upkeep of Charles or Camilla, their income is derived from the Duchy of Cornwall!

As already stated by Charlotte1, all 'informal' visits by Camilla or Charles are published and on public display. No need to have 20 different cameras to do your job.

No, they are not, just because another poster states something that you agree with, it doesn't make it fact. I would hope that people take the time to read the links provided by both sides.

Thanks for the info, I'm a stickler for facts and reasonable arguments

??????The facts for the other side of the coin are in these posts and links, especially the ones stating that he has not repaid the taxpayers and how some 'expense receipts' do not have to be produced, by ministers or any government representative.
.
I honestly feel that Beatrice and probably Eugenie are perhaps best to stick to the 'celebrity' path their mother has taken. I can only speak for myself, but so far, I would rather she was not seen as representative of UK royalty.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

Bea is given a lesson in leadership | the Daily Mail

The irony.

 

[Charlotte1]

!No, they are not, just because another poster states something that you agree with, it doesn't make it fact. I would hope that people take the time to read the links provided by both sides.??????.

Clarence House does publish the private work of Charles and Camilla, it's done I think at the end of the financial year. I was surprised by the detail it went into especially as it specifically stated, things like exactly how many letters Charles received and how many he personally answered. This kind of detail is not given by Buckingham Palace on other royals.

The Trade and Investment Board is a government entity therefore it has to be held accountable for its expenses. ( Its members are not MPs, therefore The Independent article doesn't apply here) It's not a private company where nothing needs to be disclosed. The other members who travel on these business trips are paid members of the Board, Andrew is not paid by the Board, although his expenses are covered. ( But since it seems Beatrice is actually attending some meetings as "royal duty training" it's been made publicly known that Andrew paid for her airfares and not the Board) These Trade and Investment trips have a team of people going from the Board, it's not just Andrew and his staff, all of them have an expenses paid trip to drum up trade. The other members also receive a salary.

 

[Skydragon]

Bea is given a lesson in leadership | the Daily Mail

Even though it is Kay in the Mail, it is at least a link, so thank you. Why do you think it is ironic though, do you question Andrews ability to teach leadership, (I certainly question anyones ability to teach leadership)? I still don't think 2 hours observation is anything other than an excuse for a holiday. Whilst he may have paid for her flights, there is no mention of who has paid for everything else.

Its members are not MPs, therefore The Independent article doesn't apply here) It's not a private company where nothing needs to be disclosed. The other members who travel on these business trips are paid members of the Board, Andrew is not paid by the Board, although his expenses are covered. ( ^^^But since it seems Beatrice is actually attending some meetings as "royal duty training" it's been made publicly known that Andrew paid for her airfares and not the Board) These Trade and Investment trips have a team of people going from the Board, it's not just Andrew and his staff, all of them have an expenses paid trip to drum up trade. The other members also receive a salary.The Trade and Investment Board is a government entity therefore it has to be held accountable for its expenses.

I am confused, who do you think pays his salary? I find it hard to call 2 hours observation, royal duty training! The rules governing Private companies are very strict and receipts have to be produced for virtually everything, even the estate has to provide detailed receipts. Fuel used, although claim backable, has to be proven to have been used for Estate related work, cost of corporate gifts is limited, etc, etc! Whilst Andrew may not be a minister, the same rules extend, as you say, to all on the trip and as employess of the government, they do not have to provide full detail of where the expenses occured.
Neither the government nor any government office release this information and are taking steps to block disclosure under the FOIA.
The T&I do not have to itemise all expenses incurred.

 

[Charlotte1]

I am confused, who do you think pays his salary? Whilst Andrew may not be a minister, the same rules extend to as you say to all on the trip and as employess of the government, they do not have to provide detail where the expenses occured.
Neither the government nor any government office release this information and are taking steps to block dfisclosure under the FOIA.
The T&I do not have to itemise all expenses incurred.

Andrew is not paid a salary by The Trade and Investment Board, the other members of this board who travel on the same trips as him are paid a salary from the Trade and Investment Board.

 

[Skydragon]

Andrew is not paid a salary by The Trade and Investment Board, the other members of this board who travel on the same trips as him are paid a salary from the Trade and Investment Board.

So why do you think he is paid, as SR for Trade and Investments £355,992 of UK taxpayers money each year, if it is not a salary?
Prince Andrew: The playboy prince - Independent Online Edition > Profiles

 

[Charlotte1]

So why do you think he is paid, as SR for Trade and Investments £355,992 of UK taxpayers money each year, if it is not a salary?
Prince Andrew: The playboy prince - Independent Online Edition > Profiles

From his official site

[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']The Duke is not paid for his work as Special Representative however his travel expenses are met by UK Trade and Investment and the Department of Transport.[/FONT]

 

[Skydragon]

From his official site

Why then is he paid anything by UK taxpayers? It is reported to be around £500,000 now, that's an awful lot of travel expenses!

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2494221.ece

Perhaps instead of telling us that he is 'cheap at the price', he ought to tell us what benefit he has brought to the UK. probably nothing that ordinary staff didn't achieve.

It puzzles me how anyone could think that 2 hours out of however many days (at least 6 so far), constitutes instruction for Beatrice, in Royal Duties.

 

[Charlotte1]

Why then is he paid anything by UK taxpayers? It is reported to be around £500,000 now, that's an awful lot of travel expenses!

Duke of York Interview: '£500k: it's cheap at the price' - Independent Online Edition > This Britain

Perhaps instead of telling us that he is 'cheap at the price', he ought to tell us what benefit he has brought to the UK. probably nothing that ordinary staff didn't achieve.
.

The 500,000 pounds ( hmmm just discovered I don't have a pounds symbol on my keyboard!) is for the 'trade mission', not just Andrew personally. That means it's all the travelling expenses of the group of people who attend the trade mission, and probably consultants fees. A few years back I saw the trade mission that was with the Danish royals, they had 30 people following in their wake! I doubt very much if the Trade and Investment trade missions are just Andrew and a valet, there would be various business people making contacts to sign up contracts for British businesses. I think Andrew's official site has some recommendations from some of the business leaders who have gone on these trade missions. All of the people on the trade mission would have their expenses paid for, hence the 500,000 pounds.There are alot of these trade missions during the year, Andrew would be on one at least once a month, some are a few days some of the longer ones last 2 weeks.

Obviously these trade missions are audited otherwise where do journalists get these figures? How would they know that Andrew used a helicopter and the cost to see some Arab business person, if it wasn't listed in the expenses audit? Also it seems the audit is public domain so it possible to see what money is spent by people on the Trade and Investment board, including Andrew.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Cheap at the price? This guy really irritates me.

 

[Skydragon]

The 500,000 pounds ( hmmm just discovered I don't have a pounds symbol on my keyboard!) is for the 'trade mission', not just Andrew personally.

I quote from the article - This makes it easy for critics to question whether the £500,000 bill that the taxpayer will have to foot for his UKTI work this year is value for money..
I think you will find that the UKTI spends more than £500,000 on sending it's staff on missions, so although he is part of a team, their expenses are shown separately. Business Interview: The Duke Of York - Independent Online Edition > Business Analysis & Features

Obviously these trade missions are audited otherwise where do journalists get these figures? How would they know that Andrew used a helicopter and the cost to see some Arab business person, if it wasn't listed in the expenses audit? Also it seems the audit is public domain so it possible to see what money is spent by people on the Trade and Investment board, including Andrew.

I have not said that they are not subject to audit, just that certain amounts of money are allowed to be spent, without submitting separate receipts. As a simple example and it is only an example, Andrew can say that he spent £500 on taxi's in Egypt, £500 on non alcoholic drinks, £500 extra each day on 'entertaining', they are called 'personal non taxable expenditure' and as no receipt is required, not subject to audit. The cost of a helicopter flight to Scotland or elsewhere, is not a personal expense, it is classed as a cost.
We are clearly not going to agree on this, and as we are supposed to be discussing duties for B & E, IES we could continue this by PM, if you require.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

^ I do not see any documents posted on his website: The Duke of York > Home
I am surprised he charges half a million to the taxpayers, as I was under the impression many of his flight expenses were covered by wealthy business people, like that Jeffrey Epstein guy, and probably a few Arabic oil magnates.

 

[Skydragon]

^ I do not see any documents posted on his website: The Duke of York > Home
I am surprised he charges half a million to the taxpayers, as I was under the impression many of his flight expenses were covered by wealthy business people, like that Jeffrey Epstein guy, and probably a few Arabic oil magnates.

Business Interview: The Duke Of York - Independent Online Edition > Business Analysis & Features
Duke of York Interview: '£500k: it's cheap at the price' - Independent Online Edition > This Britain

It's amazing to see that he has managed, yet again, to tie his 'work' in with a golf tournament!

 

[rmay286]

Oh, it's no secret Andrew likes golf. I think people are too hard on him though. He works a lot, he fits a bit of leisure time in with his work from time to time. I don't think his current trip to Egypt with Beatrice sounds like a vacation. In large part Andrew was doing his work (meeting foreign officials) and Beatrice was tagging along. I don't know how that's supposed to be a "vacation" for either one of them. And if they went to see the Valley of the Kings, why not? If I were accompanying my dad on a business trip to Egypt and he had the means to show me some of Egypt's greatest sights, I'd hope he would do the same as Andrew did for Beatrice.

500,000 pounds does seem like a lot for taxpayers to have to fund. I don't think this has anything to do with Andrew's work ethic, though.

 

[Elspeth]

The 500,000 pounds ( hmmm just discovered I don't have a pounds symbol on my keyboard!)

If you have a PC rather than a Mac, hit NumLock on the keypad. Then while holding down the Alt button, key in 0163 on the keypad. When you release Alt, you should have the £ sign. Then you can hit NumLock again to turn it off.

 

[Skydragon]

Oh, it's no secret Andrew likes golf. I think people are too hard on him though. He works a lot, he fits a bit of leisure time in with his work from time to time. I don't think his current trip to Egypt with Beatrice sounds like a vacation. In large part Andrew was doing his work (meeting foreign officials) and Beatrice was tagging along. I don't know how that's supposed to be a "vacation" for either one of them. And if they went to see the Valley of the Kings, why not? If I were accompanying my dad on a business trip to Egypt and he had the means to show me some of Egypt's greatest sights, I'd hope he would do the same as Andrew did for Beatrice.

500,000 pounds does seem like a lot for taxpayers to have to fund. I don't think this has anything to do with Andrew's work ethic, though.

The problem is, to me, that he is being paid with my money and we certainly do not see a lot of work being done. He gets enough money and 'freebies' to ensure that he keeps his jollies separate from his work. It is amazing that with all the criticism levelled at him for tying in his 'official' duties, with a golf tournament in the past (more than once I hasten to add), that he would rub our faces in it and do it again! One has to wonder whether this trip would have been had Andrew at the helm, if there had been no golf tournament?

If I were to send an employee to represent my company, I would not expect them to have their child tagging along, their mind should be only on the job they are to do, not wondering what the child is doing. To try to pass it off as 'teaching her' is an insult to everybody's intelligence! Either he is working or he is on holiday, if he is on holiday, then all expenses should be paid by him.

He is abusing his position and IMO dragging the UK monarchy closer to a republic!

 

[norwegianne]

If I were to send an employee to represent my company, I would not expect them to have their child tagging along, their mind should be only on the job they are to do, not wondering what the child is doing. To try to pass it off as 'teaching her' is an insult to everybody's intelligence! Either he is working or he is on holiday, if he is on holiday, then all expenses should be paid by him.

Just a quick point. It's not uncommon for "regular" people to bring their children with them if they are going somewhere interesting abroad - and the child is sufficiently aged to not require constant minding by the adult. In the past, I've gone with my Dad on trips with his work - and it worked out perfectly fine. I've stayed occupied while he fulfilled the work-portion of the event and we had fun exploring together after it was done. It has been similar for quite a few friends of mine - whose parents work in a broad range of careers. The extra costs of having an additional person along is covered by the person bringing the person, whether it be child or spouse.

Andrew and Beatrice here, to me, aren't doing anything out of the ordinary. *shrugs*

 

[Skydragon]

Just a quick point. It's not uncommon for "regular" people to bring their children with them if they are going somewhere interesting abroad - and the child is sufficiently aged to not require constant minding by the adult. In the past, I've gone with my Dad on trips with his work - and it worked out perfectly fine. I've stayed occupied while he fulfilled the work-portion of the event and we had fun exploring together after it was done. It has been similar for quite a few friends of mine - whose parents work in a broad range of careers. The extra costs of having an additional person along is covered by the person bringing the person, whether it be child or spouse.

Andrew and Beatrice here, to me, aren't doing anything out of the ordinary. *shrugs*

The trouble is they are not 'regular' people. As members of the royal family, they have to be seen to be earning the right to their 'elevated' position. If they want to be seen as 'regular people', then go out and get proper jobs. On top of the extra costs for his daughter, UK taxpayers will also have paid for their bodyguards to go and no mention is made of the cost of their flights being paid.

A lot of UK companies, the civil service and MOD do not allow the spouse or children to accompany a parent on business trips.

I remember having this discussion with Ysbel, who also didn't see any harm using an official trip as a paid holiday, as I said, if it was a secretary or another employee and I found out that I had paid for them to spend an extra day on 'holiday', they would be replaced. Not an option we have at the moment with Andrew or his daughter, but I do feel that with his arroganct behaviour, he will push the staunchest supporter to call for a change.

 

[rmay286]

The trouble is they are not 'regular' people. As members of the royal family, they have to be seen to be earning the right to their 'elevated' position. If they want to be seen as 'regular people', then go out and get proper jobs.

I don't think it's as easy as that! I'm not sure any of the royals feel they have the option to just "quit" the monarchy.

I can't really judge the royal family by some special standard, because they are regular people. They just happened to be born into a wealthy privileged family. I look at it this way: as a member of a first world country, I might not be rich by my country's standards, but I lead a wealthier and more comfortable life than the majority of the world's population. So I should be especially careful not to waste the blessings I have, and to be generous towards those less fortunate--right? Well yes, and I try to do that, but I take a lot for granted, and I'm sure people in third world countries would think I led an extremely wasteful life at times.

Basically I can't judge the royal family by a standard other than the one I judge myself and my society by. From what I've seen Andrew works hard, tries to give his daughter an educational yet fun experience by bringing her to work with him, and enjoys his (perhaps expensive by our standards but not by the standards he's used to) hobbies in his leisure time. Okay, he's not perfect, he could make better use of his (actually the taxpayer's) resources at times, but given the circumstances he finds himself in I don't find Andrew's behaviour outrageously wasteful.

 

[Bella]

I agree w rmay286. Do we know that the taxpayers are covering the cost of Pss B's trip or is that coming out of Andrew's personal account? And the figures being quoted are not just for Prince Andrew and his perks. They cover other staff members as well. As for any businessman doing what Andrew does, in theory that's a good point but in reality there wouldn't be quite the turnout, support, attention and interest if Average Joe Citizen were attending as there is with a Royal Prince attending. So his mere presence at some of these events brings to light the issues, businesses, etc. he's helping to promote. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. Once again I'll say, Royalty Sells.

 

[Skydragon]

I agree w rmay286. Do we know that the taxpayers are covering the cost of Pss B's trip or is that coming out of Andrew's personal account? And the figures being quoted are not just for Prince Andrew and his perks. They cover other staff members as well. As for any businessman doing what Andrew does, in theory that's a good point but in reality there wouldn't be quite the turnout, support, attention and interest if Average Joe Citizen were attending as there is with a Royal Prince attending. So his mere presence at some of these events brings to light the issues, businesses, etc. he's helping to promote. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. Once again I'll say, Royalty Sells.

I think as Andrew's spokesman has made a point of saying he has paid for her flights, it would indicate that he is not paying for any of her other costs. It is also the reason they suddenly came up with the 'training her for royal duties'.

The figures being quoted are just for Andrew, as you will have seen if you read the articles, by his own admission 500,000GBP this year.

and defends the cost of his travels

The difference between Andrew and any other businessman, is that the businessman can be dismissed.
The only attention Andrew gets is when he manages yet again, by a mere fluke, to be attending an event for the T&I at the same time as a golf tournament. The only difference this time from his undisputed newspaper title, he is managing to show his daughter, that you can con taxpayers
into paying for your holidays!

I can only hope Beatrice and Eugenie realise that this sort of behaviour is going to make them as unpopular as their parents are in the UK, IMO.

 

[Bella]

Well, if the $500K is just for him, that is quite high I will say. But do you really think he's deliberately trying to "con" the British taxpayers in to footing the bill for personal holidays? The golf tournament thing does seem more than a bit coincidental. But maybe it's like you mentioned in another post: maybe his host country/region has put on the tournament in his honor knowing he's a golf buff. I dunno . . . I've heard many stories from ppl who have met him that he is indeed a pompous ass, but then you hear stories of his genuine concern and professionalism so I guess we won't know really if he's the sort to really take advantage of his situation or if he's just getting bad press.

 

[rmay286]

Well I agree with Bella that 500K pounds seems high. As for the golf tournament, however, it might be "more than a bit coincidental", but at the same time, Andrew has to meet with various foreign officials, all of whom I imagine have schedules of their own. Suppose UKTI says to Andrew, "We want you to go to Egypt but such-and-such an official will only be available on such-and-such-a-date." I doubt Andrew would say, "Well I am sorry, there is no golf tournament taking place at that time, therefore I won't go." If he point-blank refused to go on trips where he couldn't enjoy a golf tournament on the side, my opinion of him would definitely drop, and so would that of many other people. That's why I doubt Andrew is playing games like that; if so I doubt he would keep his role as British trade ambassador for long.

On the other hand, if Andrew tries to coincide his foreign trips with golf tournaments and it doesn't inconvenience anyone else's schedule, I don't see it as so bad. Especially if the taxpayer isn't paying directly for any golf-related expenses.

I've also heard varying stories of Andrew--that he can be arrogant but also quite kind-hearted and attentive. So I have a feeling he's a human being like the rest of us...has his good points and bad!

 

[ysbel]

The trouble is they are not 'regular' people. As members of the royal family, they have to be seen to be earning the right to their 'elevated' position. If they want to be seen as 'regular people', then go out and get proper jobs. On top of the extra costs for his daughter, UK taxpayers will also have paid for their bodyguards to go and no mention is made of the cost of their flights being paid.

A lot of UK companies, the civil service and MOD do not allow the spouse or children to accompany a parent on business trips.

But a lot of companies do. I've worked in family-run companies and its staggering the waste that goes on. Some of the extra expense is charitable like escorting the son with multiple sclerosis of the retired CEO on a private first class jet from Berlin to Los Angeles to get the best medical care available as my first boss did. And this company was not a private family enterprise but the 3rd largest chemical company in Germany at the time.

However, one wonders if the son of someone not so important would deem the privilege of a first class flight and the best medical care available.

My personal belief is that once a country holds a royal prince up to a profit and loss balance sheet, then the country has no need for royal princes any more.

 

[ysbel]

Also while I am on it, I am a sales trainer in a financial service company and our company has a $100 limit on spending on one of our clients in a year handed down by the law. That means in New York, that its almost impossible for our sales reps to get their fave clients Yankee tickets.

But there is a workaround. The $100 limit doesn't apply if our rep attends the game with them. So what do you think our guys do? They buy tickets for themselves and their clients and their clients families and they all enjoy the game.

So our reps are not going to Yankee games just because they want a free game onthe company money but its the only way to offer a perk to an important client without getting in trouble with the law.

 

[Bella]

Perks are very important in business. The more valuable the client, the bigger the perk. I'm sure Prince Andrew - for the British taxpayers - don't pay for much when he's on a biz trip for his country. As I've said before, I'm almost certain most of the perks the Prince enjoys are put on the visiting host's tab.

 

[Camsterlaird]

I applaud Prince Andrew taking Beatrice to Egypt with him. Princess Beatrice will have to do her round of Royal Engagements after she finishes Uni anyway, and it is an ideal start of the learning curve for her. I honed skills with the public by observing my father do them - so why exactly are we being so hard on Beatrice???