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  #881  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:16 PM
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German - the Battenbergs were a morganatic branch of the Hesse-Darmstadts, and the Tecks were a branch of the Wurttembergs.

It's not for the British monarch to hand out replacement titles to everyone from a country which has abolished them. There'd be a very long queue if it was! I agree that it's not appropriate for a load of has-been failed politicians to get life peerages and seats in the House of Lords, but that's another question entirely. Politicians make those decisions, not the Court.

I really can't see Edo being given a title. The Mapello Mozzis don't use their Italian title, AFAIK, and the husbands of Princesses Anne and Eugenie weren't given titles.
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  #882  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sndral View Post
I do not see the Queen giving Beatrice & her husband a British title when she did not do so for her own daughter Princess Anne, her daughter’s children, or Beatrice’s sister.
I expect there’ll be an evening reception at Royal Lodge as there was with Eugenie. Of course, I’ve been wrong about every other aspect of this wedding
It would be nice if the groom’s father hosted a reception at the Italian ancestral home at a later date as well.
The Queen offered an earldom to Captain Mark Philips, but he refused because Princess Anne wanted her children to be as normal as possible. But I don’t think The Queen offered one to Mr. Brooksbank, as Princess Eugenie is not a working royal. I think these days being a working Royal is fundamental, than just being a royal. People want them to work and sweat to deserve public money.

I really hope for an Italian reception maybe in summer. But who knows.
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  #883  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JGio View Post
The Queen offered an earldom to Captain Mark Philips, but he refused because Princess Anne wanted her children to be as normal as possible. But I don’t think The Queen offered one to Mr. Brooksbank, as Princess Eugenie is not a working royal. I think these days being a working Royal is fundamental, than just being a royal. People want them to work and sweat to deserve public money.

I really hope for an Italian reception maybe in summer. But who knows.
Husbands of Princesses will not be offered titles nowadays wehther they are working royals or not...
  #884  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:48 PM
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This is a joke, OK. I am not seriously suggesting it. It is not going to happen.


But, in these days of gender equality, I'm amazed that some attention-seeking politician or activist hasn't try to grab a few headlines by demanding that Beatrice be allowed to become Duchess of York in her own right, when Prince Andrew's gone!
  #885  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JGio View Post
It would really amazing, but simply it won’t happen.. also in respect to poor Wolfie who would not inherit the title, being born out of wedlock.
Moreover, his title, like many other Italian titles, seems not to be “Count of X” like British ones, that’s why it is inherited by all children and passed via male sons. There’s not that much online about them, btw.


Also there’s some Law in the UK not allowing the use of foreign titles... but if The Queen I think she could create such a title. Maybe she will offer him an British one, like she is said to have done with other grooms.

"Count" is not an available title in the British peerage. I suppose the Queen could make Edoardo a knight so that Beatrice could become Lady Mapelli Mozzi, but I can't see him getting a hereditary peerage, not even a barony. As a matter of fact, even a knighthood is out of question now as the Queen doesn't hand out knighthoods except for merit.
  #886  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
The Queen offered an earldom to Captain Mark Philips, but he refused because Princess Anne wanted her children to be as normal as possible. But I don’t think The Queen offered one to Mr. Brooksbank, as Princess Eugenie is not a working royal. I think these days being a working Royal is fundamental, than just being a royal. People want them to work and sweat to deserve public money.

I really hope for an Italian reception maybe in summer. But who knows.
I know it’s been said forever that the Queen offered a title to Mark Phillips which was declined - but I’ve never seen any official verification of that, was this officially announced at the time of Anne’s wedding? Maybe I’ll google and see if I can answer my own question.
If Beatrice were not a Princess she’d still be a lady as the daughter of a Duke.
  #887  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Husbands of Princesses will not be offered titles nowadays wehther they are working royals or not...
Not sure, tbh. Even King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden offered a title to his son-in-law Chris O’Neill.
But maybe the BRF these days is much more easygoing and good-PR oriented. But it’s quite weird not giving out privileges of this type to new entries of the family because reminiscent of old-fashioned inequality, when the monarchy itself is the epitome of inequality at its essence.
  #888  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JGio View Post
Not sure, tbh. Even King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden offered a title to his son-in-law Chris O’Neill.
But maybe the BRF these days is much more easygoing and good-PR oriented. But it’s quite weird not giving out privileges of this type to new entries of the family because reminiscent of old-fashioned inequality, when the monarchy itself is the epitome of inequality at its essence.
Its not doen and itsn't going to be done.
  #889  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sndral View Post
I know it’s been said forever that the Queen offered a title to Mark Phillips which was declined - but I’ve never seen any official verification of that, was this officially announced at the time of Anne’s wedding? Maybe I’ll google and see if I can answer my own question.
If Beatrice were not a Princess she’d still be a lady as the daughter of a Duke.



The Queen is reported to have offered earldoms both to Mark Phillips and Angus Ogilvy, but that was a long time ago in different circumstances. Jack didn't get a British peerage and Edoardo won't get one either.



Does Edoardo use his family title in continental Europe ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
Not sure, tbh. Even King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden offered a title to his son-in-law Chris O’Neill.
But maybe the BRF these days is much more easygoing and good-PR oriented. But it’s quite weird not giving out privileges of this type to new entries of the family because reminiscent of old-fashioned inequality, when the monarchy itself is the epitome of inequality at its essence.

Chris O'Neill was offered a title, which he declined because the offer required taking up Swedish citizenship, which Chris didn't want to do. But there was a major difference: Chris O'Neill's wife is the King's daughter as opposed to a granddaughter in collateral line. The closest equivalent to Beatrice in the Swedish RF would be Madeleine's daughters, both of whom are not HRHs now and whose husbands will never get titles.


I sympathize with equal treatment for husbands and wives of princes and princesses as far as titles are concerned, but, like the title of prince/princess itself, I think it should apply only to children of the monarch , the heir and children of the heir.
  #890  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:52 PM
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It never was done, except for Lord Snowdon. It's not as if it's a longstanding tradition that's been abandoned. The situation never arose previously - princesses (apart from Princess Patricia) married men who had titles already.


Very few new hereditary peerages are created now, and, when they are, the decision is made by politicians, not by the Queen. The last one was in 1984, and that was for a former Prime Minister. It's just not an issue. The days of the monarch handing out titles are long gone.
  #891  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
It never was done, except for Lord Snowdon. It's not as if it's a longstanding tradition that's been abandoned. The situation never arose previously - princesses (apart from Princess Patricia) married men who had titles already.


Very few new hereditary peerages are created now, and, when they are, the decision is made by politicians, not by the Queen. The last one was in 1984, and that was for a former Prime Minister. It's just not an issue. The days of the monarch handing out titles are long gone.
It was offered to Angus Ogivly and he turned it down and I believe also offered to Mark Phillips, who did not want a title and he and Anne wanted their children to be as normal as possible. As you say hereditary peerages are not given nowadays so the queen is not going to give one to someone for marrying one of her female relatives.
  #892  
Old 02-09-2020, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
It never was done, except for Lord Snowdon. It's not as if it's a longstanding tradition that's been abandoned. The situation never arose previously - princesses (apart from Princess Patricia) married men who had titles already.


Very few new hereditary peerages are created now, and, when they are, the decision is made by politicians, not by the Queen. The last one was in 1984, and that was for a former Prime Minister. It's just not an issue. The days of the monarch handing out titles are long gone.
The last hereditary peerage was created in 2019 - Earl of Forfar - for the Queen's youngest son. In 2018 she created three hereditary titles for her grandson - Duke of Sussex, Earl of Dumbarton and Baron Kilkeel and in 2012 she created three hereditary titles for another grandson - Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn and Baron Carrickfergus. In 1999 she gave two hereditary titles to her youngest son - Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn and in 1986 three titles to her second son - Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh.

Thus it is incorrect to say that the last hereditary title was created in 1984. The Queen has been creating them for family since then and only for her family. She doesn't need political approval for her family.
  #893  
Old 02-09-2020, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
I think it's the same as it is in France and Austria, and Russia - the titles aren't recognised in the country from which they originate, but some people still use them abroad. The granting of English titles (I'm saying English because it was pre-1707) to William of Orange's mates was over 300 years ago: I don't think it'd happen now.


Didn't Prince Harry organise William and Kate's evening do? Maybe Eugenie and Jack could host something - somewhere! - for Beatrice and Edo. I'm sure the reception at Buckingham Palace will be lovely, but I don't suppose guests will be dancing the night away there!
It would be a sweet gesture if Princess Eugenie and Jack hosted an evening reception for the bride and groom.
  #894  
Old 02-09-2020, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The last hereditary peerage was created in 2019 - Earl of Forfar - for the Queen's youngest son. In 2018 she created three hereditary titles for her grandson - Duke of Sussex, Earl of Dumbarton and Baron Kilkeel and in 2012 she created three hereditary titles for another grandson - Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn and Baron Carrickfergus. In 1999 she gave two hereditary titles to her youngest son - Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn and in 1986 three titles to her second son - Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh.

Thus it is incorrect to say that the last hereditary title was created in 1984. The Queen has been creating them for family since then and only for her family. She doesn't need political approval for her family.

I think the OP meant the Queen hasn't created a hereditary peerage for someone out of the royal family since 1984, which I believe is true.
  #895  
Old 02-09-2020, 04:50 PM
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Thanks, Mbruno :-). Yes, OK, to be pedantic, the last hereditary peerage for someone who was not already a member of the Royal Family, and was not already a prince! That's not the same as ennobling someone who does not hold a British title already. Anyway, it's not going to happen. It was only really done for William and Harry to avoid the awkwardness of Kate and Meghan being known as Princess William and Princess Henry - and the same in the previous generation, when Sarah and Sophie would have been Princess Andrew and Princess Edward, which just sounded too weird in the 80s/90s.


Not really relevant, but presumably Prince Louis will be the next Duke of York. And, to get back to Beatrice's wedding, he's probably too young to be a page boy, but I wonder if she'll ask the Cambridge and Phillips children again, and Mia Tindall?
  #896  
Old 02-09-2020, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The Queen is reported to have offered earldoms both to Mark Phillips and Angus Ogilvy, but that was a long time ago in different circumstances. Jack didn't get a British peerage and Edoardo won't get one either.

Does Edoardo use his family title in continental Europe ?

Chris O'Neill was offered a title, which he declined because the offer required taking up Swedish citizenship, which Chris didn't want to do. But there was a major difference: Chris O'Neill's wife is the King's daughter as opposed to a granddaughter in collateral line. The closest equivalent to Beatrice in the Swedish RF would be Madeleine's daughters, both of whom are not HRHs now and whose husbands will never get titles.

I sympathize with equal treatment for husbands and wives of princes and princesses as far as titles are concerned, but, like the title of prince/princess itself, I think it should apply only to children of the monarch , the heir and children of the heir.
In fact I brought the example of Chris with respect to Captain Mark Philips. Not Mr. Brooksbank or Count Mapelli Mozzi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
Thanks, Mbruno :-). Yes, OK, to be pedantic, the last hereditary peerage for someone who was not already a member of the Royal Family, and was not already a prince! That's not the same as ennobling someone who does not hold a British title already. Anyway, it's not going to happen. It was only really done for William and Harry to avoid the awkwardness of Kate and Meghan being known as Princess William and Princess Henry - and the same in the previous generation, when Sarah and Sophie would have been Princess Andrew and Princess Edward, which just sounded too weird in the 80s/90s.

Not really relevant, but presumably Prince Louis will be the next Duke of York. And, to get back to Beatrice's wedding, he's probably too young to be a page boy, but I wonder if she'll ask the Cambridge and Phillips children again, and Mia Tindall?

Yes, I think this is the reason why titles are given since ever to the groom on the wedding day. Thats why wives are never “stripped of the HRH” as media love to claim, when the divorce comes into force.

I don’t think so about Louis. When he will marry, Prince Andrew will possibly still be alive, and even if he is dead, the reference would be pretty unhappy and too early to be made. However, it’s all speculation. Maybe George will become Duke of Cambridge and Louis created Duke of Oxford, but it’s not the thread to discuss it I think, even though I would love to.
  #897  
Old 02-09-2020, 05:29 PM
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If George’s first child is a girl, her husband might get a title. After all, he’d be the future Queen’s husband.
And we have gotten way off topic for this thread.
  #898  
Old 02-09-2020, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Titles in Italy are no longer recognized right? Does the family actually still hold a title that is defunct?

I think we saw the way of things when Beatrice married and her husband is still a Mister.


LaRae
The current constitution of Italy came into force on January 1, 1948, and explicitly prohibits the recognition of titles of nobility. Families can call themselves what they want, including "Count" (though Edo calls himself "Mr."), but there are no holders of actual (not by courtesy) titles as exist in the United Kingdom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Its not doen and itsn't going to be done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
This is a joke, OK. I am not seriously suggesting it. It is not going to happen.


But, in these days of gender equality, I'm amazed that some attention-seeking politician or activist hasn't try to grab a few headlines by demanding that Beatrice be allowed to become Duchess of York in her own right, when Prince Andrew's gone!
As a matter of fact, a representative YouGov poll conducted in 2018 demonstrated that 71% of Britons believe daughters ought to have the same rights as sons to inherit titles, and the Cameron administration announced in 2016 that a reform of courtesy titles to treat husbands and wives equally was in the works (but PM Cameron resigned not long after).

It is not at all beyond the realm of possibility that a legal reform of the titles of husbands, daughters, or both might happen within the Duke of York's lifetime.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Chris O'Neill was offered a title, which he declined because the offer required taking up Swedish citizenship, which Chris didn't want to do. But there was a major difference: Chris O'Neill's wife is the King's daughter as opposed to a granddaughter in collateral line. The closest equivalent to Beatrice in the Swedish RF would be Madeleine's daughters, both of whom are not HRHs now and whose husbands will never get titles.

I sympathize with equal treatment for husbands and wives of princes and princesses as far as titles are concerned, but, like the title of prince/princess itself, I think it should apply only to children of the monarch , the heir and children of the heir.
But in the Swedish situation, the Court stated that none of Prince Carl Philip's or Princess Madeleine's children would share their princely or ducal titles with their spouses. Unless some other title is offered to the eventual wives but not the eventual husbands (which is possible), the treatment of the spouses will therefore be equal.

In the British royal family, a woman who marries Archie will become HRH Princess Archie of Sussex, even though her position will be equivalent to that of Edo Mapelli Mozzi and Jack Brooksbank.
  #899  
Old 02-09-2020, 05:54 PM
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I don't think any one of them need more than 1 reception.
Neither do I, but it seems to be the fashion among the wealthy who like to splash their money around on such things.

I think it has something to do with the fact they have the wedding in the middle of the day. If they had the ceremony in the late afternoon they could just have a night-time reception and do away with the lunch-time event. As it is if they just had the luncheon do they would all be sitting around cooling their heels by 5pm wondering what to do with themselves for the evening, all dressed up and nowhere to go. So they have another party. I'm too old now for a day-night match like that. It sounds exhausting.
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  #900  
Old 02-09-2020, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In the British royal family, a woman who marries Archie will become HRH Princess Archie of Sussex, even though her position will be equivalent to that of Edo Mapelli Mozzi and Jack Brooksbank.
• I don’t think Archie will be Prince, despite it would’ve automatic with The Queen’s passing. Harry and Meghan seem to want him a private citizen, way more private that Lady Louise and Viscount Severn, e.g. •

Maybe B and Edo May will marry in the afternoon and the BP reception includes some dinner.
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