Beatrice and Edoardo: Wedding Suggestions and Musings Thread

[JR76]

You know, she might be the Queen and grandmother of the bride but at Beatrice's wedding she's just a guest. The wedding is not about her.

 

[Pranter]

When someone official announces his 3 year old son will be his best man then I will believe it..until then it's just tabloids trying to sell papers.



LaRae

 

[Osipi]

I guess I'm odd because I find having Wolfie included in a prominent role in his father's wedding endearing. Little kids love stories about themselves as they grow up and start asking questions. My favorite story was how my mom and dad got to "pick me out". Perhaps the inclusion of Wolfie in such a prominent position next to his father is to symbolize that Edo and Beatrice are not only marrying each other but that they're also forming a family. My oldest son was a member of the bridal party twice (ring bearer) before he was four years old, tux and all and still remembers doing it. Never underestimate a three year old.

I've heard of several occasions where when a man is going to propose marriage to a woman who already has children, he'll seek the kid's permission first reminiscent of the asking the father for his daughter's hand in marriage.

Again, this may all be supposition and a figment of someone's imagination as there's been no official announcement. We'll see what develops.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Does the Anglican Church have a rule of exactly how young the best man can be?

 

[Alison H]

People like to be different. Some people have their dog as their best man! I'm sure he'll have plenty of other people to organise the stag do, support him on the day, make a speech if they want one, etc.


The Queen is 93. She's lived through a world war and tremendous social and political change. There's very little she hasn't seen or heard before. I doubt she'll be too fazed by this!

 

[Countessmeout]

People like to be different. Some people have their dog as their best man! I'm sure he'll have plenty of other people to organise the stag do, support him on the day, make a speech if they want one, etc.


The Queen is 93. She's lived through a world war and tremendous social and political change. There's very little she hasn't seen or heard before. I doubt she'll be too fazed by this!

No some people have their dog are a ring bearer. Best man it's not just a random title you bestow on your pet rock. It literally meant to be your head supporter on your wedding.

Who would wish this on a three year old anyways. Do or think a toddler could stand by his father during the ceremony and all the eyes on him. I have seen ring bearers get over whelmed. Pages and flower girls walk the aisle and then are off to the side away from scrutiny during the ceremony.

No doubt he will be in the wedding but in a role fit for a toddler.

The best man traditionally is one of the witnesses to the registry. And for that you have to not only be old enough to write your name but also sign a contract.

 

[SLV]

I am not enchanted with the idea of a 3 year old as best man...1) A three year old is a toddler not a man 2) A toddler is unable to provide any practical support to the groom such as keeping the ring safe and making a proper traditional toast later. A 3 year old standing at the altar is there primarily for the "awww isn't that sweet" factor. 3) If he is a shy child, it might not end well.

Surrounding Wolfie with other small children as a page boy or ring bearer seems not only the most pragmatic way to go, but the most compassionate one as well.

Interesting, I had always thought that Bm and MoO had the same function as the witnesses we need in the Netherlands. You need one (may have two) witness for bride and groom each. They sign the weddingcertificate, thereby proclaiming that the wedding was legal, between two consenting adults and that they promiss to support the couple in their married life.
Witnesses therefor need to be over 18.
I guess BM and MoO are purely ceremonial functions in the UK (and US) if they can make a toddler BM.
That it, if it is true. We only have the DM's repport and we all know they love to make things up.

 

[Lilyflo]

It doesn't matter who the witnesses are as long as they can understand the ceremony and therefore act as genuine witnesses. You need at least two but it can be more.

 

[evolvingdoors]

I guess I'm odd because I find having Wolfie included in a prominent role in his father's wedding endearing. Little kids love stories about themselves as they grow up and start asking questions. My favorite story was how my mom and dad got to "pick me out". Perhaps the inclusion of Wolfie in such a prominent position next to his father is to symbolize that Edo and Beatrice are not only marrying each other but that they're also forming a family. My oldest son was a member of the bridal party twice (ring bearer) before he was four years old, tux and all and still remembers doing it. Never underestimate a three year old.

I've heard of several occasions where when a man is going to propose marriage to a woman who already has children, he'll seek the kid's permission first reminiscent of the asking the father for his daughter's hand in marriage.

Again, this may all be supposition and a figment of someone's imagination as there's been no official announcement. We'll see what develops.

This may be the first time we agree on something.
I think people are taking this role too seriously, if this is true, it is meant to be a personal important gesture to his son that even though he is entering into a marriage union and will be having children with Beatrice, Christopher is and will forever be a part of that family, she (has been) will be his step mother.

I think it is a symbolic heartfelt gesture that in the long run will serve as a strong meaningful reminder to his son of his importance in his father home life with Beatrice.
I highly doubt anyone! Is expecting the child to do all the traditional groomsman duties, one of Edo friends will be tasked with that.
But being groomsmen is considered an important duty, now think about a 3 year old boy being told he is given the most special and important position in his father entourage at the wedding— how much pride and feeling of “i’m Important!” Will this three year old boy feel!
(Think about being a child and helping your mommy choose an outfit before a night out or being asked what color you wish to paint your room; Or as Osipi said, being asked for your permission to marry your parent from their partner.
How important and all grown up did we all feel in those moments!!)

While he won’t perform any groomsman duties a grown up will, it is possible they will let him assist in a way that is age appropriate for him: maybe helping his father choose his ring (for all we know he may have also been asked his opinion about Bea engagement ring) or which bow tie to wear.

Ring bearer is a nice position to give to your nephew or young brother- not your son who is for all intents also “marrying” your fiancé.

We also need to keep in mind the class these two people come from. Edo is next in line to an Italian title (though not acknowledged by Italian government anymore) but this boy is unlikely to inherit that title and land and house when his father dies because he was born out of wedlock- those will go to Edo and Bea eldest son (when or if they have one).
So I return to my point up post: this is, IMO, done to give a young boy a feeling of mattering and inclusion, to make sure this boy always feels a member of this family, even in 50 years from now when a younger brother inherits the family estate.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] We also need to keep in mind the class these two people come from. Edo is next in line to an Italian title (though not acknowledged by Italian government anymore) but this boy is unlikely to inherit that title and land and house when his father dies because he was born out of wedlock- those will go to Edo and Bea eldest son (when or if they have one). [....]

Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights makes no difference in children born within or out of wedlock.

Moreover, like all countries on the European Continent, the principle of the Code Napoléon is followed: equal distribution of a private inheritance over ALL children. See the recent example of Delphine Boël who will inherit equally from her royal father's private wealth, alike her three step-siblings.

As Italian titles are titres de courtoisie, used by convention and not regulated by law, there is no title to be distributed.

 

[duchesschicana]

Wow, some comments on here are really negative. I thought the best man idea is so cute abviously his friends will be taksed with organizing other things, but I doubt his friends have to worry about that much considering others are tasked with organizing these types of wedding. The only reason I believe this is because the DM has been on point about Beatrice's wedding.

By the way wolfe will be 4 sometime this year.

hmmmm I read an interesting new article that has lots of info about the whole title thing Edo's biological father gave a recent new interview though I dont know how accurate things are considering it says he has yet to meet his daughter in law and yet he has never seen his son so happy and has only met the ex once. I dont know how close they are though since I believe Eduardo has said his step father was more of a real father to him at his memorial service. The article even points this out. He gives me Thomas Markle vibes.

Or even how well his biological father understands UK/Italian law regarding tittle but he says this:

Edoardo is the only male descendent taking the family into the next generation. He is a count – his wife will be a countess automatically and any of their children will be counts or nobile donna.' https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/...rice-Contessa-marrying-family-posher-own.html

'The title Conte is recognised to all male family descendants but only by marriage,' explains the Collegio Araldico historical society in Rome.

'Edo's son Wolfie, although recognised by his father, carrying his surname, has not the title of count. Wolfie is not a count, as Edoardo is not married to his mother. If Edoardo and Beatrice marry and have a son, he will be a count.' Not to mention an heir to the magnificent Villa Mapelli Mozzi.

Gleam from this what you may.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

So, Beatrice is marrying the "poshest"partner of any of her Royal British peers. She will add the title of " Countess" to that of princess. Her sons and daughters will be counts and countesses ..whether or not they "permitted " to use their titles or not.

She will eventually become chatelaine to the Villa Mapelli-Mozzi, one of the most beautiful palaces in Italy.

And even so she is being compelled to have the most low key (by Royal standards) wedding of her generation....

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Wow, some comments on here are really negative. I thought the best man idea is so cute abviously his friends will be taksed with organizing other things, but I doubt his friends have to worry about that much considering others are tasked with organizing these types of wedding. The only reason I believe this is because the DM has been on point about Beatrice's wedding.

By the way wolfe will be 4 sometime this year.

hmmmm I read an interesting new article that has lots of info about the whole title thing Edo's biological father gave a recent new interview though I dont know how accurate things are considering it says he has yet to meet his daughter in law and yet he has never seen his son so happy and has only met the ex once. I dont know how close they are though since I believe Eduardo has said his step father was more of a real father to him at his memorial service. The article even points this out. He gives me Thomas Markle vibes.

Or even how well his biological father understands UK/Italian law regarding tittle but he says this:





Gleam from this what you may.

This information is purely for informal use. For Italian law Edo is Signore Mapelli Mozzi, no more, no less. And Edo's son is Edo's son and a rightful for equal distribution of his father's private wealth. Of course the ancestral domain can have a form of legal protection, for an example by placing it in a family trust, so that no longer a natural person but a legal entity is the owner.

If the ancestral estate happens to be a purely private property (and remains so) then it is subject to equal and gender neutral distribution amongst the children. Most likely the ancestral villa is registered as a commercial property as it partly functions as a hotel these days, with all regulations. Therefore it is most likely owned by the family enterprise rather than by a private person, is my guess.

 

[duchesschicana]

So, Beatrice is marrying the "poshest "partner of any of her Royal British peers. She will add the title of " Countess" to that of princess. Her sons and daughters will be counts and countesses ..whether or not they "permitted " to use their titles or not.

She will eventually become chatelaine to the Villa Mapelli-Mozzi, one of the most beautiful palaces in Italy.

And even so she is being compelled to have the most low key (by Royal standards) wedding of her generation....

Welll, neither country recognizes the title officially and maybe Beatrice and Eduardro wanted priavte wedding either way considering Wolfe. The mother and edo use to post loads of photos of him, They deleted most and now have a private instagram for him.

 

[duchesschicana]

This information is purely for informal use. For Italian law Edo is Signore Mapelli Mozzi, no more, no less. And Edo's son is Edo's son and a rightful for equal distribution of his father's private wealth. Of course the ancestral domain can have a form of legal protection, for an example by placing it in a family trust, so that no longer a natural person but a legal entity is the owner.

If the ancestral estate happens to be a purely private property (and remains so) then it is subject to equal and gender neutral distribution amongst the children. Most likely the ancestral villa is registered as a commercial property as it partly functions as a hotel these days, with all regulations. Therefore it is most likely owned by the family enterprise rather than by a private person, is my guess.

Yes I know the title has no legal standing either way Just quoteing whatt the article said in regards to Edos son .

 

[Alison H]

That's how all titles work, AFAIK - going back to the days when counts were expected to marry someone of equal rank but it was considered OK for them to have umpteen mistresses and illegitimate children. But Edo doesn't use the title anyway. And, whilst it's a gorgeous palace, they're not going to be living in it. It looks as if it's used as a hotel - if you look it up on Google, it comes up on Trip Advisor and people have written reviews of their stays there. I dread to think how much it costs, but it looks lovely!

 

[Moonmaiden23]

The Mapelli-Mozzi rent out their palace as a sort of Air BnB for the uber wealthy. This money is used to offset the cost of the upkeep, which must be formidable.

I did read reviews and Googled photos. It's very beautiful. I continue to cross my fingers and to hope that Beatrice and Edo will host at least one celebration there in the near future.

 

[JR76]

Legally recognised or not the Italian nobility still use their titles socially and these are still inherited according to the different rules depending on geographical origin, terms of ennoblement, which monarchy the family originated from etc... To be frank I've long been quite puzzled by how many members of this forum which is dedicated to royal and noble families are very quick to put forward opinions in the vein of that because a state doesn't recognise the titles of these families they're irrelevant and so are any discussion about them

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Come sit beside me.

 

[JR76]

Come sit beside me.

I will! If I could I'd post that gif from Steel Magnolias with Olympia Dukakis & Dolly Parton [emoji2275]

 

[Countessmeout]

That's how all titles work, AFAIK - going back to the days when counts were expected to marry someone of equal rank but it was considered OK for them to have umpteen mistresses and illegitimate children. But Edo doesn't use the title anyway. And, whilst it's a gorgeous palace, they're not going to be living in it. It looks as if it's used as a hotel - if you look it up on Google, it comes up on Trip Advisor and people have written reviews of their stays there. I dread to think how much it costs, but it looks lovely!

Its more air bnb. But in the sense of the fancy houses the rich and famous rent when on vacation. It’s open for weddings and such.

https://villamapellimozzi.com/old/en/

It’s booked for a year as I can’t find any dates on booking sites that are free to see price. But the only estimate I could find is a minimum $2500 a night.

It’s run by a female member of the family and her husband. Not sure the relation to Alex. It also contains the family art collection which Alex has grown for decades.

 

[duchesschicana]

Edo leaves comments on the Villa's instagram occasionally last time was in 2018

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Legally recognised or not the Italian nobility still use their titles socially and these are still inherited according to the different rules depending on geographical origin, terms of ennoblement, which monarchy the family originated from etc...

As the discussion originated in a comment regarding Wolfie Mapelli Mozzi potentially feeling excluded from his family, I think the point was that the original exclusionary rules are no longer enforceable, as Edo Mapelli Mozzi demonstrates: He would have been a count according to the rules used whilst the nobility was legally recognized, but he uses "Mr." socially and is billed accordingly by the Royal Household. Wolfie would not have been a count according to the original rules, but should he one day decide to use "Count Wolfie" socially, the Collegio Araldico historical society would have no legal standing to interfere, and likewise, Wolfie will surely not be deprived of his share of his father's fortune on the basis of illegitimacy.

To be frank I've long been quite puzzled by how many members of this forum which is dedicated to royal and noble families are very quick to put forward opinions in the vein of that because a state doesn't recognise the titles of these families they're irrelevant and so are any discussion about them

I am a bit puzzled as I cannot remember posts opining that discussions about unrecognized families and titles are irrelevant to the forum - the discussion of this particular unrecognized title seems robust. Information on the legal standing of suggested titles is surely relevant to discussions of them.

 

[Alison H]

Some people like using titles that aren't legally recognised. Jackie Kennedy's sister was usually known as Princess Lee Radziwill even though Poland hasn't recognised titles since just after the First World War ... and even after she'd been divorced from her Polish prince for years! But Edo just goes as Mr/Signor.


I think Francesco da Mosto, the Venetian historian who does programmes for the BBC sometimes, uses his title of Count. It'd be quite interesting to see a programme on the Mapello Mozzi family and their palace, but I can't see it happening.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

How about beaded lace edging on the wedding veil?

 

[victor1319]

Corona?

There were some ideas here in the Forums about the wedding with a little cermony in England and a big, fat party in Italy. Me thinks, since Italy is hard hit with the corona-virus this idea is dying, right?

And sorry for asking: Will Beatrice become a countess Mapelli Mozzi after the wedding?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

And sorry for asking: Will Beatrice become a countess Mapelli Mozzi after the wedding?

Both Buckingham Palace and Edo Mapelli Mozzi himself treat Edo as a "Mr.", so it is safe to assume that they will not refer to Beatrice as a countess.

Private societies or private persons (though not governments, given that the title has no legal standing in Italy or in the United Kingdom) who recognize Mr. Mapelli Mozzi as a count will recognize his wife as a countess in the same way, as the custom of calling married women by their husbands' titles historically also prevailed in Italy.

I am not sure if she would be recognized as a "Mapelli Mozzi" by private Italian societies as my understanding is that the majority of women in Italy no longer take their husbands' names.

 

[victor1319]

If I understood it right, then Edo is the heir of the count title and fortune (if there is any...).

So, I am questioning here more for the kids, they will hopefully have. I mean, the UK has a harsh tradition of "phasing out" the kids of the non-nuclear royal family from noble titles. Rather a countess or count, than a mere Lady or Sir, right?

Plus: If they have more than one kid, the italian tradition can be continued.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

According to the former Italian laws, all male members of the family in legitimate male lines would have been counts (see the article posted in message #1033). But it would surprise me if Buckingham Palace referred to the couple's sons as counts, when their father is referred to as a plain Mr.

I am not sure about the fortune, but I believe UK law allows a family fortune to be divided (or not) in whatever manner the owner desires.

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

Victor, Edo's "title" is a mere fiction. It would not be "better" for the children to be referred to as count or countess in a fictional sense than if they were properly entitled to be Lord or Lady (which they are not). Even if they were to be referred to as count or countess, they are no more a count or countess than if everyone in my social circle got together and decided that we are going to call me a countess from now on. There is no reality to that title and has not been for close to a hundred years.

When I see discussion of Edo as a "count" I am reminded inextricably of the scene in Downton Abbey when Thomas goes to interview at a stately home that is all but empty and in total disrepair, but the Lord who lives there is convinced that it is still in its state of former glory. I can't help but picture a social group of people (and I don't believe Edo is amongst their number) referring to themselves by titles stripped away 80 years ago as like that old nobleman.