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  #241  
Old 01-15-2022, 06:55 AM
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Andrew can't do anything. I remember in 2020 when he and Sarah tried to help during the pandemic by packing supplies for NHS workers and were criticised from pillar to post for daring to do anything. The following week Edward and Sophie did the exact same thing and everyone praised them for 'mucking in'. Same when Philip died - Andrew, like his siblings went to church on the Sunday and in his case the church basically in his own backyard, and he was criticised for daring to speak to the media, who asked him questions. Basically the public and media felt he shouldn't have even gone to the church on that Sunday morning ... a church he is able to walk to from his home while Edward and Sophie had to drive from their home in Surrey to Royal Berkshire (not a huge distance but from a different county) and again Edward and Sophie were praised for the way they spoke while Andrew was criticised for daring to speak.

Other then the one or two times a week he goes to Windsor to ride he basically now has nowhere to go nor anything to do. If he was given any 'official' position the BRF would be criticised. He simply has nothing he will be allowed to do ever again.
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  #242  
Old 01-15-2022, 07:10 AM
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Its not an admission that he's believed to be guilty in law... its a clear indication that his general conduct even if not illegal is so far from proper for a senior royal, that he has to give up any kind of public role. I think the queen may find it hard to be as tough iwth him as she should be. Shes an old lady, he is her favourite son. But Im sure that both Charles and WIllliam are clear on what needs to be done and have encouraged the queen to do it.

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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
The two issues are actually completely not related. He will probably stay at Windsor for many years to come - bless the Queen. Charles will look after him, William will look after him - they are not going to disown him. The housing really depends on the future plans for the estates - and that might be 50 years in the future. But that would have happened anyway even if he was still a working member of the family.

I am very worried about the Queen and some member of the family are really not in a good state. My prayers and concerns are with them at the moment.
The queen is a tough old gal, and I wouldnt worry about her. It is sad that in her very old age, she should have had her son beahving so badly, on top of losing Philip, but I think she is able to cope.
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  #243  
Old 01-15-2022, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Its not an admission that he's believed to be guilty in law... its a clear indication that his general conduct even if not illegal is so far from proper for a senior royal, that he has to give up any kind of public role. I think the queen may find it hard to be as tough iwth him as she should be. Shes an old lady, he is her favourite son. But Im sure that both Charles and WIllliam are clear on what needs to be done and have encouraged the queen to do it.
I cannot see Andrew be found guilty of anything in a criminal court.

And unless we are talking Code Napoleon, where you have to prove your innocence, he wouldn't have to fear a civil court either - from a legal point of view that is. (Q for Americans: Can't he simply pull the Fifth Amendment?)
But it is very clear that leading members of the BRF have found him guilty of being stupid, irresponsible and arrogant. And now it's the end of the line. He is finally at long last learning that there are consequences even if you technically haven't done anything illegal.
In hindsight this might have been avoided if he had been knocked hard on the head before. Like being "promoted" to be governor of the Falkland Islands the last time he did something stupid.
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  #244  
Old 01-15-2022, 07:39 AM
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How could he be governor of anywhere??? The days of royals becoming governors is long long since gone. And Andrew isn't one of the brighter ones, certainly and he's too arrogant to accept advice so that he could maybe do a decent job.
ANd that is exactly what I siad.. that he may not be guilty of anything illegal but his general conduct has been pretty bad, palling round with and accepting favours from a sex offender, being seen with him even when he knew he was guilty, accepting "girls who were offered to him" even when they were very young and barely legal....It would be bad for anyone. For somone with a public position as a royal, its just totally unacceptable.
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  #245  
Old 01-15-2022, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
How could he be governor of anywhere??? The days of royals becoming governors is long long since gone. And Andrew isn't one of the brighter ones, certainly and he's too arrogant to accept advice so that he could maybe do a decent job.
ANd that is exactly what I siad.. that he may not be guilty of anything illegal but his general conduct has been pretty bad, palling round with and accepting favours from a sex offender, being seen with him even when he knew he was guilty, accepting "girls who were offered to him" even when they were very young and barely legal....It would be bad for anyone. For somone with a public position as a royal, its just totally unacceptable.
It was not to be taken literally.
But giving him some kind of punishment when he did something stupid beforehand.
A "we've got just the right job for you" punishment.

As I see it Andrews behavior and poor judgements was tolerated for too long.
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  #246  
Old 01-15-2022, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I can see the York Princesses missing Uncle Wales's coronation either by choice or by coercion...but their beloved grandmother's funeral should be off limits too?
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Originally Posted by rominet09 View Post
Why would his daughters be punished ? They did nothing wrong !
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
PR - the moment the York princesses attend any official event the media will run all the sordid details about their father's actions.
If the York princesses are banned from their grandmother's funeral on the grounds of being Andrew's daughters, the media will certainly run stories about that decision, which will by necessity include the sordid details about their father's actions.

Should we move the discussion about the York princesses being possibly banned from funerals/coronations/events/estates to Duties and Roles of Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie?
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  #247  
Old 01-15-2022, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
The two issues are actually completely not related. He will probably stay at Windsor for many years to come - bless the Queen. Charles will look after him, William will look after him - they are not going to disown him. The housing really depends on the future plans for the estates - and that might be 50 years in the future. But that would have happened anyway even if he was still a working member of the family.

I am very worried about the Queen and some member of the family are really not in a good state. My prayers and concerns are with them at the moment.
Charles and William will not need to look after Andrew, he will be left a substantial inheritance by The Queen.

I don't remember the expiration date, but Andrew's lease on The Royal Lodge will outlive him, and his daughters, if alive, will be in their dotage.

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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Its not an admission that he's believed to be guilty in law... its a clear indication that his general conduct even if not illegal is so far from proper for a senior royal, that he has to give up any kind of public role.
Agree.

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Originally Posted by Hallo girl View Post
What are your opinions on Royal Lodge, do you think he will be asked/told to move to something less expensive to run. Also Royal Lodge was a family home of the Queen when younger also her mother's home in later life so close connections there.
I had read somewhere a few months ago that William wanted it and I thought no , he will not be permitted to tell Andrew to move on , now I am not so sure.
There are newspaper stories that William wants to move to Windsor.
Love to read your views.
William would be an idiot to form the thought of occupying the Royal Lodge, not just in his current capacity as Duke of Cambridge, but in his future roles as Prince of Wales / Duke of Cornwall and King. Part of me was going to caveat my statement by saying that Andrew could possibly sell the lease back to The Crown Estate if he is strapped for cash, but I don't think that is even likely, because once his mother passes away, he should be rich enough to keep that roof over his head even if he does not prevail in the current lawsuit IMO.

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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
William wants it does he? Anmer and ginormous quarters at Kensington Palace are not quite enough for him?

I really don't believe this story at all.
I don't believe the part about William eyeing the Royal Lodge, but I do believe the part about the Cambridges possibly moving to Windsor.

As I stated in a previous post in another thread, the Cambridges do not need a Windsor home, but neither does The Queen. The Queen has ginormous quarters at Buckingham Palace, along with ginormous houses and goo-gobs of land in Sandringham and Balmoral. Nevertheless The Queen spends most of her time at Windsor, which was likely happening even before the pandemic.

The reason why I see the Cambridges moving to Windsor, and I think that they will move into the castle, not one of the houses, is because once The Queen is gone, then the royals most associated with Windsor will be the Yorks and Sussexes. Charles does not seem to have any interest in Windsor. I think moving the Cambridges to Windsor is, among other things, is a form of succession planning.
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  #248  
Old 01-15-2022, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Andrew can't do anything. I remember in 2020 when he and Sarah tried to help during the pandemic by packing supplies for NHS workers and were criticised from pillar to post for daring to do anything. The following week Edward and Sophie did the exact same thing and everyone praised them for 'mucking in'. Same when Philip died - Andrew, like his siblings went to church on the Sunday and in his case the church basically in his own backyard, and he was criticised for daring to speak to the media, who asked him questions. Basically the public and media felt he shouldn't have even gone to the church on that Sunday morning ... a church he is able to walk to from his home while Edward and Sophie had to drive from their home in Surrey to Royal Berkshire (not a huge distance but from a different county) and again Edward and Sophie were praised for the way they spoke while Andrew was criticised for daring to speak.

Other then the one or two times a week he goes to Windsor to ride he basically now has nowhere to go nor anything to do. If he was given any 'official' position the BRF would be criticised. He simply has nothing he will be allowed to do ever again.

Exactly. And it's all his own fault, as he (and Fergie, if that matters) got away with arrogance, narcissism, ignorance and terrible sense of judgement for too long. People can usually forgive as we are all human, and Sophie is a good example here, she made a mistake and showed bad judgement and learned from it, kept her head down, became exemplary in her role. Andrew never showed an ounce of self reflection in that respect.
He finally gets what he deserves or reaps when he has sown over the years.
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  #249  
Old 01-15-2022, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
It was not to be taken literally.
But giving him some kind of punishment when he did something stupid beforehand.
A "we've got just the right job for you" punishment.

As I see it Andrews behavior and poor judgements was tolerated for too long.
I dont quite see what kind of "punishment" they could inflict. Andrew would not pay any attention to a bawling out, he is royal and unless the queen were to remove his HRH, there is no getting away from that. The only thing that could happen was what did eventually happen.. that charities who had been working with him, who presumably gave him some recognition that gave his life meaning...and a royal role, refused to work with him any longer.. and then the RF had to make some kind of admission that he was not going to be doing any royal duties at all in the future.
in Bygone days, it might be possible if he were willilng, to do some low key charity work like Profumo for a long time, in quiet obscurity but Andrew isn't IMO willing to do that.. and even if he did try, the present climate is that anyone accused of things esp like sexual issues, is just never going to be forgiven..
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  #250  
Old 01-15-2022, 08:48 AM
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There are always ways of punishing someone. The BRF know Andrew, they know what he would not like to do.
They would know where to send him and what to strip him of and so on.

But they didn't so now they (had to) sacked him on grey paper.

Anyway, Andrew is yesterday's man now. And if he doesn't like that, what's he gonna do about it? Move in with Harry?
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  #251  
Old 01-15-2022, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
There are always ways of punishing someone. The BRF know Andrew, they know what he would not like to do.
They would know where to send him and what to strip him of and so on.

But they didn't so now they (had to) sacked him on grey paper.

Anyway, Andrew is yesterday's man now. And if he doesn't like that, what's he gonna do about it? Move in with Harry?
I dont see what you think they could do. Andrew only listens to his Mother, I suspect and not always to her. And she loves him and probably does not wholly beleive he's at fault. What could they do? They cant leave him without money, they cant lock him up... If they are seen to be at odds with him, they would be damaging the public image of the RF. He had charities who were glad of his patronage, until 2 years ago and if those charities were willing to work with him, how could the RF take them away? The charities are free to find whatever patrons they wish and they clearly felt that Andrews name and contacts were worth cultivating until his reputation took a serious dive with the Interview in November 2019.
the queen was not going to take away his HRH which might have been soemthing that would upset him.. but she simply does not do that.. Besides, the problem with the "family punishing him" scenario is that as Ive said, it just would make the family look bad, and draw attention to Andrews generally screwed up behaviour whereas leaving him to get on iwth his work at least gave him a role and kept him occupied and giving him less time for fooling around.
Im sure he is very far from happy now, confined to Windsor, no job, nothing to do but try perhaps to amuse and console his mother and see his children and grandchildren.. but I would imagine that even he realises that he is still rich, sitll looked after and has some company in his limited life.. and is putting up with it.
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  #252  
Old 01-15-2022, 09:06 AM
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The problem is that all this is happening while the Duke of York has done no any crime or misdemeanour so far. Prosecution in the UK and in the USA see no coherent case which can stand the test of a trial. For so far a lady stepped forward and laid a civil claim on the plate of the Duke. An eventual lawsuit still has to start.

But no, Andrew is publicly thrown under a bus. If there are portraits of the Queen in British courthouses: throw these in the garbage bins. Just like they did with the once sacred principle of the presumption of innocence which is as ancient as Roman Law. Also this has been thrown in the garbage bins of Buckingham Palace. The Queen is the Fount of Justice: hahahahahahahahaha.....

Be my guest, throw Andrew under a bus. But only after Justice has spoken!
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  #253  
Old 01-15-2022, 09:16 AM
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He is being "thrown under a bus" because of his general conduct which is decidedly unbecoming..
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  #254  
Old 01-15-2022, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
He is being "thrown under a bus" because of his general conduct which is decidedly unbecoming..
No matter going forward now if Andrew is convicted of a crime and sentenced to serve a punishment for said crime or he loses this civil lawsuit and has to pay a sum to Ms. Giuffre, it would be seen as icing on the cake in the scheme of things. What he has already had heaped on his head until this point in time is repercussions from how he's chosen to handle things and his attitude towards his situation.

The man blatantly stood by his conviction that he was being "honorable" in his relationship with Epstein. No matter what horror stories were coming out about Epstein and his "inner circle" activities, Andrew chose to stand in his corner and defend him as a good friend. To me, that showed the world that Andrew saw nothing amiss with consorting with a known pedophile (which, when you think about it, points to Andrew believing that there's nothing wrong whatsoever with having a harem of underage females geared to providing pleasure for a man's taking). Andrew exhibited within a short space of time in an interview to the public expressing himself in such a way that could only pinpoint that his character is based on entitlement, arrogance and a very egocentric attitude. He's hung himself with his own rope.

Andrew may never serve a day in prison for any kind of criminal wrongdoing but he's basically resigned himself to a prison of his own making. A prison that has totally removed him from public view and one that prevents him from ever being looked up to in any kind of a meaningful way.
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  #255  
Old 01-15-2022, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Isn't it possible he might go abroad to wherever he isn't cared about and is allowed to use the golf courses?

The only other possibility is if he were to do a Profumo and somehow spend the next few decades working extremely quietly for some ironclad charity, but both Andrew's temperament and the current media age probably rule it out.

I'm betting on the Juan Carlos option as soon as he gets sick of being persona non grata in-country.

I would add the Cristina option as the Infanta also effectively moved out of Spain to live with her family in Switzerland, stopped receiving any official Royal Household money, and no longer undertakes any official royal duties. Cristina also lost, by royal decree, her title of Duchess of Palma de Mallorca, but kept the HRH, the title of Infanta, and her place as (currently) sixth in the line of the succession to the throne.

As (currently) 9th in line to the British throne, Andrew is 100 % expendable, so I don't expect any sympathy for him either from his elder brother nor from the courtiers. His situation will only get worse when the Queen is gone.
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  #256  
Old 01-15-2022, 10:02 AM
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I dont see what you think they could do. Andrew only listens to his Mother, I suspect and not always to her. And she loves him and probably does not wholly beleive he's at fault. What could they do? They cant leave him without money, they cant lock him up... If they are seen to be at odds with him, they would be damaging the public image of the RF. He had charities who were glad of his patronage, until 2 years ago and if those charities were willing to work with him, how could the RF take them away? The charities are free to find whatever patrons they wish and they clearly felt that Andrews name and contacts were worth cultivating until his reputation took a serious dive with the Interview in November 2019.
the queen was not going to take away his HRH which might have been soemthing that would upset him.. but she simply does not do that.. Besides, the problem with the "family punishing him" scenario is that as Ive said, it just would make the family look bad, and draw attention to Andrews generally screwed up behaviour whereas leaving him to get on iwth his work at least gave him a role and kept him occupied and giving him less time for fooling around.
Im sure he is very far from happy now, confined to Windsor, no job, nothing to do but try perhaps to amuse and console his mother and see his children and grandchildren.. but I would imagine that even he realises that he is still rich, sitll looked after and has some company in his limited life.. and is putting up with it.
That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?
A classic: The spoiled child and the loving, but overindulgent parent.

It rarely ends well when the parents don't put the foot down once in a while and Andrew is now there, at the end of the line.
He can appeal to his mother and at best get a brief respite.
His brother, Charles? Who has enough problems with a rouge son?
William? Who I suspect can be pretty ruthless, and probably just what the BRF needs in the coming years. Fat chance of any pardon from him.

Andrew is a liability.
The BRF doesn't need him.
The people don't want him.
So what has he to offer? - As I see it, nothing.
The BRF can say to Andrew: Shut up and play golf for the rest of your life or enjoy your time at court in USA.

As it is, this sacking has enabled the BRF (and the UK) to refuse extradition and having Andrew appearing in court.

So Andrew's (pretty enviable) future is long walks in the countryside, no public obligations, sleep late and play golf when he feels like it for the rest of his life.
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  #257  
Old 01-15-2022, 10:05 AM
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If it was just because of his conduct, why wasn't he punished when he was, you know, actively presenting a problematic image? I mean, I can't even remember the first time I read about his horrifying conduct. But it amounted to nothing. Only after the interview he was pulled from duty which was a half-measure I can't really get behind. He wasn't proclaimed guilty at the time and his patronages needed an active patron. Either the optics of the RF believing in his innocence or the wellbeing of the patronages should have been sacrificed. It was impossible to keep both intact. The RF chose the middle way.

Now, they're deflecting from it without him having done anything additional to deserve such treatment now. It wasn't bad enough five or two years ago but a reassessment has been suddenly made that has nothing to do with bowing to people's opinion?

I don't believe it.

I don't think anything more will be done before the trial is over because it's going to look even more like admission of guilt. Later, perhaps the Juan Carlos way.
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  #258  
Old 01-15-2022, 10:24 AM
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That pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?
A classic: The spoiled child and the loving, but overindulgent parent.

It rarely ends well when the parents don't put the foot down once in a while and Andrew is now there, at the end of the line.
He can appeal to his mother and at best get a brief respite.
His brother, Charles? Who has enough problems with a rouge son?
William? Who I suspect can be pretty ruthless, and probably just what the BRF needs in the coming years. Fat chance of any pardon from him.

Andrew is a liability.
The BRF doesn't need him.
The people don't want him.
So what has he to offer? - As I see it, nothing.
The BRF can say to Andrew: Shut up and play golf for the rest of your life or enjoy your time at court in USA.

As it is, this sacking has enabled the BRF (and the UK) to refuse extradition and having Andrew appearing in court.

So Andrew's (pretty enviable) future is long walks in the countryside, no public obligations, sleep late and play golf when he feels like it for the rest of his life.
Im not sure what your point is? Yes, Andrew's working liffe is over. We know that. Andrew knows that. I doubt if the RF would WANT Andrew turning up in court in the USA, and will try to make sure it does not happen.. But I dont know of any evidence that Andrew is phoning up Charles or his mother all the time to complain about his lot. He isn't bright and he's arrogant but I would imagine that he realises he is stuck with a comfortable but very limited life from now on.
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  #259  
Old 01-15-2022, 10:27 AM
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This is not "Andrew who has been a model citizen and royal being suddenly faced with something disturbing and unproven". He is being sacked for the sum total of what he's already done. I would really stop trying to make this about his presumptive innocence in his legal battle. Two different things.
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  #260  
Old 01-15-2022, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Moran View Post
If it was just because of his conduct, why wasn't he punished when he was, you know, actively presenting a problematic image? I mean, I can't even remember the first time I read about his horrifying conduct. But it amounted to nothing. Only after the interview he was pulled from duty which was a half-measure I can't really get behind. He wasn't proclaimed guilty at the time and his patronages needed an active patron. Either the optics of the RF believing in his innocence or the wellbeing of the patronages should have been sacrificed. It was impossible to keep both intact. The RF chose the middle way.

Now, they're deflecting from it without him having done anything additional to deserve such treatment now. It wasn't bad enough five or two years ago but a reassessment has been suddenly made that has nothing to do with bowing to people's opinion?

I don't believe it.

I don't think anything more will be done before the trial is over because it's going to look even more like admission of guilt. Later, perhaps the Juan Carlos way.
What has changed within the internal dynamics in regards to decision-making in the BRF within the past five years? Has someone new now begun to step up in earnest? William?
While someone else has begun to step back? QEII - and to whatever degree Prince Phillip, who for very natural reasons is no longer around to exercise whatever influence he had?

I see this as a clear indication that the dynamics of the BRF changing decisively. Things there were tolerated or rather indulged five years ago, are cracked down upon now. And there is no longer an attempt to sit out and weather the storm.
IMO that would be the right approach. The BRF are facing many crisis in the coming years, both within the BRF but certainly also in regards to the realm.
In short: Andrew is a luxury the BRF can't afford for a foreseeable future and they can't afford to ignore the public opinion.
And just as importantly that cannot be certain that the politicians won't throw the BRF and even the monarchy under the bus.
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