Princess Royal Title

LeDerius · #1 11-13-2014, 08:25 PM

Does anyone have a pretty good guess as to why the Queen waited 22 years to bestow the title of Princess Royal on Princess Anne? The previous Princess Royal, Mary, died in 1965 and Anne was given the title in 1987.

Also, is there an official ceremony that happens when the title is given?

Lastly, King Edward VII elevated all children of Princess Louise the Princess Royal to HRH, do you think there was talk of at least giving titles to Anne's children?

Skippyboo · #2 11-13-2014, 09:01 PM

Probably the same reason that Edward and Andrew didn't get the Order of Garter as young men- they had to earn it. Anne would have been just 15 when Princess Mary died. She really didn't have a royal role then.

At the time of the wedding with Mark Phillips, a earldom was offered but the couple turned it down. If it was accepted, Peter would have a courtesy title of a viscount and Zara would be Lady Zara. Just like Princess Margaret's kids- David and Sarah

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Ish · #3 11-13-2014, 09:02 PM

I don't know about the first two parts of your question, although I doubt there's any ceremony with the granting of the title - there isn't any for the granting of most titles.

The rumour with Anne's children is that Mark was offered an earldom when he married Anne and refused it. It's said that the Queen also offered to confer a title on Peter when he was born, but it was also refused.

As the children of Princess Margaret weren't elevated beyond their father's title (which was granted on his marriage), nor were the children of Princess Mary, I kind of doubt it occurred to the Queen to make her first grandchildren royals. A lot changed when it came to British titles during George V's reign, including the idea that every relation gets to be a British Royal.

I would also add that Edward VII elevated the Princess Royal's children to Highness (HH), not Royal Highness (HRH).

LeDerius · #4 11-13-2014, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippyboo

Probably the same reason that Edward and Andrew didn't get the Order of Garter as young men- they had to earn it. Anne would have been just 15 when Princess Mary died. She really didn't have a royal role then.

At the time of the wedding with Mark Phillips, a earldom was offered but the couple turned it down. If it was accepted, Peter would have a courtesy title of a viscount and Zara would be Lady Zara. Just like Princess Margaret's kids- David and Sarah

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I don't think you have to work for the Princess Royal title. Queen Victoria gave Princess Victoria the title when she was 1.

Skippyboo · #5 11-13-2014, 09:08 PM

The Queen probably thought you need to do something- because she waited several years.

Louise became a HRH because she married HRH Prince Arthur of Connaught and took his rank. The HH title got eliminated by George V in 1917

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Iluvbertie · #6 11-13-2014, 09:11 PM

You don't 'have to work' for the title but QEII has shown that she expects the younger siblings to do more than the heir to get any honours.

She waited until Anne was well established as a working member of The Firm to give her the title of Princess Royal. She could have done it the day after her aunt died. Edward VII waited a couple of years, as did George V, between the deaths of their respective sisters and the creation of their own daughters.

CyrilVladisla · #7 11-13-2014, 09:21 PM

Princess Charlotte, eldest daughter of King George III and Queen Charlotte, was officially designated as Princess Royal on June 22, 1789.

Ish · #8 11-13-2014, 09:34 PM

Queen Victoria was freer with titles though, and could be in general.

I don't think it's odd that QEII didn't confer the title onto Anne automatically; she's made all her children wait until marriage for any their titles (except for Charles; half of his titles were automatic. The rest came when he was still very young). I do think it's odd that she waited so long into Anne's marriage to confer the title, since it seems more comparable to Andrew's Dukedom or Edward's Earldom than their other honours.

Ish · #9 11-13-2014, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skippyboo

The Queen probably thought you need to do something- because she waited several years.

Louise became a HRH because she married HRH Prince Arthur of Connaught and took his rank. The HH title got eliminated by George V in 1917

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Louise, Princess Royal was an HRH because she was the daughter of a monarch.

Her daughters, Alexandra and Maud were elevated to HH by their grandfather. Alexandra later became a Royal Highness when she married Prince Arthur of Connaught, who was a grandson of Queen Victoria and entitled to the HRH under the 1917 LPs.

sndral · #10 11-13-2014, 11:06 PM

By 1987 Charles had two sons and the Queen may have assumed that Charles would have no more children thus she could bestow the title on Anne without interfering with Charles using the title for his own offspring during his reign. Anne is certainly a hard working Royal and deserving of the honor, IMO.

**HRHHermione** · #11 11-14-2014, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndral

By 1987 Charles had two sons and the Queen may have assumed that Charles would have no more children thus she could bestow the title on Anne without interfering with Charles using the title for his own offspring during his reign. Anne is certainly a hard working Royal and deserving of the honor, IMO.

Makes sense and it's worked out. If William and Kate have a daughter, she could be created princess royal by that point in her life too. (Anne was 37 when she received it, and as she's 64- she could live as long as the Queen Mother did and the title would still become available by the time a daughter of William turned 40)

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Curryong · #12 11-14-2014, 01:46 AM

I agree that it has probably been the Queen's personal preference to hand out these titles and styles slowly and carefully. The world's moved on from the days when Queen Victoria had her infant son and daughter proclaimed the Prince of Wales and the Princess Royal respectively.

Prince Philip has never received any title like Prince Consort, and had to wait until he was ninety to become Lord High Admiral of the Fleet.

Queen Camilla · #13 11-14-2014, 03:41 AM

LeDerius,
This is the one question I have always wanted to ask the Queen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sndral

By 1987 Charles had two sons and the Queen may have assumed that Charles would have no more children thus she could bestow the title on Anne without interfering with Charles using the title for his own offspring during his reign.

Charles' children have nothing to do with the Queen not conferring the title of Princess Royal on her daughter Anne.

Why would the Queen overlook her own daughter in preference of a granddaughter?

How is it reasonable that the Queen would not bestow an honor on her daughter so that her son could grant the title on his daughter during his reign?
Why would the Queen think Charles’ daughter would be better than her own daughter?
Why would she deny her daughter the title of Princess Royal so that Prince Charles’ daughter can have the title?

This issue has always concerned me and I could only come up with these explanations. (Hopefully some people will not get too upset.)

1. Princess Anne did something to upset her mother.
2. The Queen felt all women were inferior except herself. (Maybe she included herself and thought/thinks men are superior to women.)
3. The Queen was very selfish and didn’t like to share the spotlight with any other woman. She was forced to share it with her mother but refused to share it with her daughter. (Not only was her daughter overlooked several times but so was Princess Alexandra.)
4. The Queen was jealous of Prince Philip’s relationship with her daughter. She thought Philip spent too much time with Anne and was neglecting her so she withheld the title of Princess Royal as a way to punish Prince Philip and Princess Anne.
5. Maybe she was upset with Philp and she knew Philip wanted Anne to have the title so she withheld giving the title to Princess Anne.

The year the Queen finally decided to bestow the title of Princess Royal on her daughter, Princess Anne performed 704 engagements.

Iluvbertie · #14 11-14-2014, 06:42 AM

Anne hadn't been a full-time working royal for all that long when she was created Princess Royal as she had been a professional equestrienne throughout most of the 70s.

I think it was more to do with that than anything else.

Anne's title isn't a peerage so it isn't on a par with Andrew, Edward and William's (she has always been able to stand for election to the House of Commons - won't do so but is eligible to do so).

Skippyboo · #15 11-14-2014, 07:02 AM

The simplest answer seems like the Queen likes to make people wait for stuff. Look at the Order of the Garter.
Philip got it at the time of his marriage from George VI, its automatic for the Prince of Wales, but look at when all the others got them- DoKent (1985), Anne(1994), DoGlouc(1996), Andrew(2006), Edward (2006), Alexandria(2003) and William (2008).

Only William got it from the Queen relatively young and probably one of the reason he got it when he did was he was the 1000th knight. The royal knights don't count on the limit of knights so the Queen didn't need a open spot to name this people.

Margaret never even got the garter. So I don't think it was any personal feud or jealously on the Queen's part with Anne.

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Queen Camilla · #16 11-14-2014, 07:04 AM

What is full time?

Titles and honors were bestowed on Charles, William, Andrew and Edward without them working anywhere near the number of engagements Anne performed.

Princess Anne had to work longer & harder for her honors than her brothers and her nephew.

IIRC didn't Anne attend the Opening of Parliament in 1968?
Princess Anne attended when she was 18. Charles, IIRC, first attendance was also 1968 at age 20.

In 1970 she was president of Save the Children and she joined her parents on several foreign tours including America & Australia.

Surely the Queen's daughter deserved the honor of Princess Royal if she was expected to attend State functions.

Ish · #17 11-14-2014, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iluvbertie

Anne hadn't been a full-time working royal for all that long when she was created Princess Royal as she had been a professional equestrienne throughout most of the 70s.

I think it was more to do with that than anything else.

Anne's title isn't a peerage so it isn't on a par with Andrew, Edward and William's (she has always been able to stand for election to the House of Commons - won't do so but is eligible to do so).

It's not a perfect comparison, but Anne's title is in appearance and use more similar to the titles of her brothers and nephew, than the honours that she's been given. It's more accurate to compare the title of Princess Royal to that of the Duke of York (etc) than the honours like the Garter, because even though the PR title doesn't come with a peerage it's still a title and treated in a similar way to other titles.

Another biggie in my opinion is the fact that Anne is eligible for all the British orders that her younger brothers and nephew have - Anne is a Dame Grand Cross of the Royal Victorian Order (Andrew and Edward are both Knight Grand Crosses), she's a Royal Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Garter (as are Andrew and Edward; William is only a Royal Knight Companion), and an Extra Knight of the Most Ancient and Noble Order of the Thistle (as is William; Andrew and Edward are Royal Knights).

To me it seems like in terms of honours, the Queen has made all her cousins, daughters-in-law and younger children work for them (only granting them relatively quickly to her husband and the direct line), but in terms of personal titles she's granted them to her younger sons and grandson on their marriage - which makes me wonder why she waited so long after Anne's marriage to grant her a personal title.

Jacknch · #18 11-14-2014, 12:14 PM

Here is some information on the title of Princess Royal. I note that Princess Mary was of a similar age to Princess Anne when the title was conferred upon her, so I am not sure there is anything behind the fact that Anne did not receive the title earlier.

Princess Royal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rudolph · #19 11-14-2014, 12:18 PM

Princess Royal is regarded as a style rather than a rank or title, as it is purely honorary, bearing no particular connotation of precedence

Seven princesses have bore the style Princess Royal since it was first used in the seventeenth century

Also its created by Royal Warrant and not by Letters Patent passed under The Great Seal of Realm

Duc_et_Pair · #20 11-14-2014, 01:01 PM

It gives the bearer prestige and standing. The first two Princess Royals also were Princess of Orange and of Nassau by marriage, which will be a coincidence. It undoubtedly did add prestige back then. The first two were known as "The Princess of Orange and of Nassau, The Princess-Royal" and in those times they were almost treated as Queens.