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  #21  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Most likely Doña Sofía has to accept Danish nationality and by doing so, she will cease to be a successor. Most likely, out of courtesy, the Spanish monarch will allow her to remain an Infanta de España:

Sofía de Todos los Santos,
Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsessen,
Kronprinsesse af Denmark, Grevinde af Monpezat
født De Borbón y Ortiz, Infanta af Spanien.
Oh I was also thinking the same thing. Thank you.

How about if we suppose this, Infanta Sofia marrying a royal from a non-reigning royal family like HI&RH Archduke Maximilian of Austria, Prince of Tuscany, son of Archduke Sigismund, Grand Duke of Tuscany?
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  #22  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
Oh I was also thinking the same thing. Thank you.

How about if we suppose this, Infanta Sofia marrying a royal from a non-reigning royal family like HI&RH Archduke Maximilian of Austria, Prince of Tuscany, son of Archduke Sigismund, Grand Duke of Tuscany?
It depends on Maximilian becoming a citizen of Spain. Imagine that Don Felipe will create Leonor Duquesa de San Jaime:

Su Alteza Real Doña Leonor de Borbón y Ortiz, Infanta de España, Duquesa de San Jaime
El Excélentísimo Señor Don Maximiliano de Habsburgo y Edmonstone, Duque de San Jaime
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  #23  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It depends on Maximilian becoming a citizen of Spain. Imagine that Don Felipe will create Leonor Duquesa de San Jaime:

Su Alteza Real Doña Leonor de Borbón y Ortiz, Infanta de España, Duquesa de San Jaime
El Excélentísimo Señor Don Maximiliano de Habsburgo y Edmonstone, Duque de San Jaime
So you mean to say, the Infanta is not able to use her husband's higher style of HI&RH, title in pretense Archduchess and his substantive title Princess of Tuscany?

We are still talking about Infanta Sofia, not Leonor.
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  #24  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
So you mean to say, the Infanta is not able to use her husband's higher style of HI&RH, title in pretense Archduchess and his substantive title Princess of Tuscany?

We are still talking about Infanta Sofia, not Leonor.
Modern Spain does not use titles of pretence for Spanish citizens. It is Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez Bordiú. It is not SAR el Duque de Anjou. It was Don Carlos Ugo de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset. It was not SAR el Duque de Parma.

Even the late Duque de Calabria, best friend of King Juan Carlos, was not mentioned with his title in the Royal Decree: https://www.boe.es/eli/es/rd/1994/12/16/2412 But in some way the Casa Real so now and then mentioned the title Duque de Calabria.
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  #25  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Modern Spain does not use titles of pretence for Spanish citizens. It is Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez Bordiú. It is not SAR el Duque de Anjou. It was Don Carlos Ugo de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset. It was not SAR el Duque de Parma.

With the notable exception of the Duque de Calabria.
Oh yes this make sense. I forgot about this but thank you bringing this up.

Yes, with the special exception of the Duke of Calabria and we already know why, of course.
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  #26  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Most likely Doña Sofía has to accept Danish nationality and by doing so, she will cease to be a successor. Most likely, out of courtesy, the Spanish monarch will allow her to remain an Infanta de España:

Sofía de Todos los Santos,
Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsessen,
Kronprinsesse af Denmark, Grevinde af Monpezat
født De Borbón y Ortiz, Infanta af Spanien.



I have just re-read Title II (Articles 56-65) of the Spanish constitution and I couldn't find the requirement that the King must be a Spanish citizen. Citizenship is required, however, to exercise the regency in the event of minority or incapacity of the King. Furthermore, the King's guardian (when the King is a minor) must also be a Spaniard by birth.


Is there perhaps some other article elsewhere in the Spanish constitution where it is stated that the King must be a Spanish citizen ?


On the other hand, I am not familiar with Spanish citizenship laws. Could Sofía for example become a Danish citizen and still retain her Spanish citizenship ?


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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Modern Spain does not use titles of pretence for Spanish citizens. It is Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez Bordiú. It is not SAR el Duque de Anjou. It was Don Carlos Ugo de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset. It was not SAR el Duque de Parma.

Even the late Duque de Calabria, best friend of King Juan Carlos, was not mentioned with his title in the Royal Decree: https://www.boe.es/eli/es/rd/1994/12/16/2412 But in some way the Casa Real so now and then mentioned the title Duque de Calabria.

Nevertheless, in the Royal Decree you quoted, don Carlos is referred to as "Su Alteza Real" ("His Royal Highness"). Would that be equivalent to recognizing a title of pretense (or pretence in British spelling) ?
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  #27  
Old 07-16-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I have just re-read Title II (Articles 56-65) of the Spanish constitution and I couldn't find the requirement that the King must be a Spanish citizen. Citizenship is required, however, to exercise the regency in the event of minority or incapacity of the King. Furthermore, the King's guardian (when the King is a minor) must also be a Spaniard by birth.


Is there perhaps some other article elsewhere in the Spanish constitution where it is stated that the King must be a Spanish citizen ?
I cannot find one, either.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On the other hand, I am not familiar with Spanish citizenship laws. Could Sofía for example become a Danish citizen and still retain her Spanish citizenship ?
Yes, Spanish citizens who become foreign nationals may retain their Spanish citizenship through a declaration within three years.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Nevertheless, in the Royal Decree you quoted, don Carlos is referred to as "Su Alteza Real" ("His Royal Highness"). Would that be equivalent to recognizing a title of pretense (or pretence in British spelling) ?
My understanding is that the Spanish titles of pretense became recognized under the transitional provisions of the royal decree of 1987, so that Don Carlos's Spanish title of Royal Highness was not a title of pretense but a legal title as of 1994.
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  #28  
Old 08-20-2020, 02:33 PM
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I believe that Princess Leonor's future husband will be the title of Prince of Asturias and when Leonor becomes Queen he will be the title of Prince Consort.

As for infanta Sofia's future husband, I believe king Felipe VI will give him the title of Duke, as happened to the husbands of Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina.
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  #29  
Old 08-20-2020, 03:51 PM
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I believe that Princess Leonor's future husband will be the title of Prince of Asturias and when Leonor becomes Queen he will be the title of Prince Consort.

As for infanta Sofia's future husband, I believe king Felipe VI will give him the title of Duke, as happened to the husbands of Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina.
Tatiana Maria all laid out how it works for the future husband of Leonor.

In the case of Sofía's husband and I don't think he will be given a ducal title; Jaime and Iñaki weren't created dukes either! Instead, it is very likely that Sofía herself will be created a Duchess; her husband will then be able to use that title as well as long as he is either her husband or widower.

Note that for example Jaime is no longer the Duke of Lugo, because he and Elena divorced. Had he been the one who had been given the title, he would still be the duke of Lugo while Elena would have ceased to be the duchess of Lugo - but it is the other way around.
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  #30  
Old 08-20-2020, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
I believe that Princess Leonor's future husband will be the title of Prince of Asturias and when Leonor becomes Queen he will be the title of Prince Consort.

As for infanta Sofia's future husband, I believe king Felipe VI will give him the title of Duke, as happened to the husbands of Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina.

Yes, those are the rules today under the royal decree 1368/1987. The husband of the Princess of Asturias shares all the titles of his wife (so he is also Prince of Asturias) and also holds the style of Royal Highness . The husband of a reigning Queen has the title of Prince (note that the royal decree doesn't say Prince Consort or Prince of Spain, just plain Prince) and the style of Royal Highness. That is a break with Spanish tradition where, previously, the husband of a reigning Queen was titled King.



Those rules are not set in stone though. They can be changed at any time by a simple royal decree countersigned by the prime minister. Only the titles of King of Spain and Prince of Asturias (for the holder and the heir to the Crown respectively) are laid out in the constitution and, therefore, enjoy special protection.
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  #31  
Old 08-20-2020, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
As for infanta Sofia's future husband, I believe king Felipe VI will give him the title of Duke, as happened to the husbands of Infanta Elena and Infanta Cristina.
In the case of Sofía's husband and I don't think he will be given a ducal title; Jaime and Iñaki weren't created dukes either! Instead, it is very likely that Sofía herself will be created a Duchess; her husband will then be able to use that title as well as long as he is either her husband or widower.

Note that for example Jaime is no longer the Duke of Lugo, because he and Elena divorced. Had he been the one who had been given the title, he would still be the duke of Lugo while Elena would have ceased to be the duchess of Lugo - but it is the other way around.
Agreed. A ducal or other noble title, should one be given, would be granted to Sofía for use by her husband, in the same way it was done for Infantas Elena and Cristina, Pilar and Margarita. (Sofía herself would continue to use SAR la Infanta Doña Sofía, exactly as the other Infantas continued to use their Infanta titles after being created duchesses. In the Spanish system, an Infanta/Infante title takes precedence over a (Spanish) dukedom.)

But my prediction is that unless the monarchy is considerably more secure by the time the Infanta marries, no title of nobility will be granted to the Infanta or her spouse, who will at most become an Excmo. Sr. Likewise, in contrast to Jaime de Marichalar and Iñaki Urdangarin, my guess is that a spouse of Infanta Sofía will not become even a part-time working royal. I think the King, in the present conditions, will minimize the risk of royal scandal by keeping the number of family members who are viewed as royals pared down.
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