The Princess of Asturias and The Infanta Sofía's News Thread, Part 2

[TLLK]

Poor girl, I am so sorry for her. I can't imagine that it was her choice to go on this Academy.

I tend to believe that Leonor has been prepared to attend the same institutions that her father did. She was educated at the same primary/middle school and went away for part of her secondary schooling like her father. She's following the same education path.

 

[Magnolia471]

Poor girl, I am so sorry for her. I can't imagine that it was her choice to go on this Academy.

Sorry for her? Do you realize there are thousands of women entering military academy every year? We don't know her personally. When it's a royal man with a uniform, it's almost getting fetishized but we should feel sorry when it's comes to women...It's 2023, the Army it's not for men only.

 

[Countessmeout]

Poor girl, I am so sorry for her. I can't imagine that it was her choice to go on this Academy.

This isn't hundred years ago. There are thousands of women in the military. This need to think of women as weak and not willing to serve in the army is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I guess it will be a bit difficult for Leonor, as a woman,

Excuse me? There are plenty of women with military vocation. [...]

Yes, there are plenty of women with military vocations, but the overwhelming majority of soldiers globally continue to be male, and equal-rights policies have not banished unofficial sex discrimination from military life. Spain, where the proportion of women in the military plateaued at around 12% during the 2010s, is no exception. As the princess of Spain, Leonor will most likely be shielded from the more extreme difficulties suffered by women in militaries (e.g., sexual harassment), but it is very possible that being part of a small minority will make her experience of military life a bit more difficult than it would be for a prince.

 

[Adda]

Yes, there are plenty of women with military vocations, but the overwhelming majority of soldiers globally continue to be male, and equal-rights policies have not banished unofficial sex discrimination from military life. Spain, where the proportion of women in the military plateaued at around 12% during the 2010s, is no exception. As the princess of Spain, Leonor will most likely be shielded from the more extreme difficulties suffered by women in militaries (e.g., sexual harassment), but it is very possible that being part of a small minority will make her experience of military life a bit more difficult than it would be for a prince.

I served in the force, I don't need statistics to know girls don't sign up as much as boys, and that, although sad, it's not what was being discussed.

I don't know how Leonor -or any of the other 140 new Damas Cadetes- would have it difficult just because they're women. Boys struggle as well.

EVERYONE will face difficulties, it's a Military Academy, not Disneyland.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I served in the force, I don't need statistics to know girls don't sign up as much as boys, and that, although sad, it's not what was being discussed.

The post you quoted and replied to saying "Excuse me?" simply stated that "I guess it will be a bit difficult for Leonor, as a woman", so I'm not sure how it is possible to conclude that underrepresentation was not one of the difficulties being discussed by the original poster.

I don't know how Leonor -or any of the other 140 new Damas Cadetes- would have it difficult just because they're women. Boys struggle as well.

EVERYONE will face difficulties, it's a Military Academy, not Disneyland.

Yes, everyone will face difficulties (workers at Disneyland as well), and on an individual basis, certain male cadets will struggle more than certain female cadets. Nonetheless, some difficulties such as underrepresentation, maternity discrimination and sexual harassment affect women disproportionately even though men are affected as well.

ETA: Corrected "less" to "more".

 

[Blog Real]

First images of Princess of Asturias in the military uniform and receiving her first lessons.

https://www.vanitatis.elconfidencia...eras-fotos-uniforme-militar-academia_3720463/

https://www.hola.com/realeza/20230818237435/primeras-imagenes-princesa-leonor-look-militar/1

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692584528336814128

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692582020038238212

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692579917244805534

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The post you quoted and replied to saying "Excuse me?" simply stated that "I guess it will be a bit difficult for Leonor, as a woman", so I'm not sure how it is possible to conclude that underrepresentation was not one of the difficulties being discussed by the original poster.



Yes, everyone will face difficulties (workers at Disneyland as well), and on an individual basis, certain male cadets will struggle more than certain female cadets. Nonetheless, some difficulties such as underrepresentation, maternity discrimination and sexual harassment affect women disproportionately even though men are affected as well.

ETA: Corrected "less" to "more".

Yes this is what I meant. The military still is very much a male dominated environment and you pointed out some of the difficulties that Leonor or in general female recruits might have to face even at this day and time.

Compared to the monarchies of her nordic or dutch counterparts, Leonor will be Head of State in a country with a lot of machismo.
As we have seen in other countries, being the monarch and mother giving birth to the children is a unique challenge. Of course not easy to find a husband in the first place who is willing to walk three steps behind, shut up while enduring the press.

 

[Magnolia471]

Yes this is what I meant. The military still is very much a male dominated environment and you pointed out some of the difficulties that Leonor or in general female recruits might have to face even at this day and time.

Compared to the monarchies of her nordic or dutch counterparts, Leonor will be Head of State in a country with a lot of machismo.
As we have seen in other countries, being the monarch and mother giving birth to the children is a unique challenge. Of course not easy to find a husband in the first place who is willing to walk three steps behind, shut up while enduring the press.

No offense but you have very backward mindset. Queen Elizabeth of England served in the army during the war and had no problem finding a partner who respected her role more than 80 years ago and you think women in 2023 can't do it.

 

[Prinsara]

No offense but you have very backward mindset. Queen Elizabeth of England served in the army during the war and had no problem finding a partner who respected her role more than 80 years ago and you think women in 2023 can't do it.

Elizabeth II served in an all-female auxiliary unit for a couple of months and was the only one who got to sleep at home at night. Never had to do PT or experienced anything close to what military officer cadets go through.

If you think the Duke of Edinburgh found it easy to (suddenly) be the Queen's consort instead of continuing his traditional military career for another expected couple of decades, I would suggest you look more closely.

It's not right to believe Leonor will automatically have problems just because she is female. It's also not wrong to believe that because she is female in a country with a machismo tradition, she might have to face things solely because of gender in 2023 and beyond. I don't recall having these discussions about Elisabeth in Belgium -- and we have no idea if she had issues or not.

 

[Adda]

Compared to the monarchies of her nordic or dutch counterparts, Leonor will be Head of State in a country with a lot of machismo.
As we have seen in other countries, being the monarch and mother giving birth to the children is a unique challenge. Of course not easy to find a husband in the first place who is willing to walk three steps behind, shut up while enduring the press.

Well, the heir from a "Machista" country is doing far more for equality than the heirs from Nordic countries. Countries that, by the way, usually have disproportionally high prevalence rates of intimate partner violence against women.

Speaking as a Norwegian, I'd prefer to see Ingrid do what Leonor is doing, instead of hearing about her oh-so-wonderful meatless birthday gala and seeing her as a supposed "environmental worker". Elisabeth and Leonor are leading by example.

 

[Muhler]

I'm not particularly worried about Leonor in regards to having problems because she is a woman.

After all the cadets are pretty bright to even being admitted.
Spain is not a backward country and indeed in a number of ways is way more liberal than say the Scandinavian countries.
On top of that Leonor is the Heir and these cadets wish to have a career within the military and as such we must assume that most come with a set of fairly conservative values, in regards to king and country. And as such they may end up having some sort of affiliation with the monarchy - and their future queen... So p*ssing off Leonor by bullying her may not be a wise strategy!

Also, the instructors, staff and cadets are not stupid, they know Leonor has a specific job to do, where she is going to learn about the military but not being a career soldier. So there is little incentive to a b*stard towards her.

So while she may encounter the odd fool, idiot, macho man and no doubt when they are tired and worn out, get told off, I think most are determined to give her and each other a good experience.

 

[Adda]

First images of Princess of Asturias in the military uniform and receiving her first lessons.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692584528336814128

Leonor's name tag says "Borbón Ortiz" instead of just "Borbón". That's new, Don Felipe wasn't "Borbón y Grecia":

http://img.irtve.es/contenidos/fotos/felipeVI/029topografia.jpg

 

[Somebody]

First images of Princess of Asturias in the military uniform and receiving her first lessons.

https://www.vanitatis.elconfidencia...eras-fotos-uniforme-militar-academia_3720463/

https://www.hola.com/realeza/20230818237435/primeras-imagenes-princesa-leonor-look-militar/1

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692584528336814128

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692582020038238212

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692579917244805534

She doesn't look that excited... I truly hope she will enjoy her 3 years in the armed forces (and prepared herself physically over at least the last few months) as it is clear she had no choice in the matter at all.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Well, the heir from a "Machista" country is doing far more for equality than the heirs from Nordic countries. Countries that, by the way, usually have disproportionally high prevalence rates of intimate partner violence against women.

Speaking as a Norwegian, I'd prefer to see Ingrid do what Leonor is doing, instead of hearing about her oh-so-wonderful meatless birthday gala and seeing her as a supposed "environmental worker". Elisabeth and Leonor are leading by example.

What have Princesses Leonor and Elisabeth done for gender equality that Princess Ingrid and other Nordic heirs (are you referring to Frederik, Victoria, and/or Christian?) have not done?

Leonor's name tag says "Borbón Ortiz" instead of just "Borbón". That's new, Don Felipe wasn't "Borbón y Grecia":

http://img.irtve.es/contenidos/fotos/felipeVI/029topografia.jpg

Is the use of both surnames now the rule for military name tags?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Compared to the monarchies of her nordic or dutch counterparts, Leonor will be Head of State in a country with a lot of machismo.

Is there more machismo in Spain than in Sweden, Norway, Belgium or the Netherlands? For what it is worth, the World Economic Forum ranked Spain #18 in its Global Gender Gap Index 2023: lower (more unequal) than Sweden (#5), Norway (#2) and Belgium (#10), but higher than the Netherlands (#28).

From a royal watcher's perspective:

Spain has had more reigning queens than all other surviving European monarchies put together. The kingdom of Navarre alone had six (not counting failed claimants) before its unification with Castile, Aragon, and France.

Spain has acknowledged the right of daughters to inherit the throne ahead of eligible uncles, male cousins and nephews for around a millennium, earlier than any other modern European monarchy. (The British monarchy did not implement that rule until the 18th century.)

Spain is the only nation in the world with an officially recognized nobility in which women and girls have equal rights to men and boys in the succession to titles and headship of noble families.

Spain is probably the only country in Europe where female royalty and nobility currently have the same rights as males to pass (or not) their titles to their spouses and children (with one exception: King Juan Carlos I decided in his 1987 decree that in the future, husbands of queens regnant will only be princes).

I don't recall having these discussions about Elisabeth in Belgium -- and we have no idea if she had issues or not.

At the time that Princess Elisabeth of Belgium enrolled in military training, the percentage of women in the Belgian military (approximately 8%) was even lower than the current percentage (approximately 13%) in Spain.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

She doesn't look that excited... I truly hope she will enjoy her 3 years in the armed forces (and prepared herself physically over at least the last few months) as it is clear she had no choice in the matter at all.

Did you expect her to be smiles and giggles? This is military training, and it's serious. If they showed her smiling, she would be accused of not taking it seriously.

And as others have said, this level of training should be expected of ALL heirs. No doubt her program is tailored for her

 

[BriarRose]

She doesn't look that excited... I truly hope she will enjoy her 3 years in the armed forces (and prepared herself physically over at least the last few months) as it is clear she had no choice in the matter at all.

She isn't supposed to smile- notice all the other cadets have the same facial expressions. It would be incredibly weird if Leonor was grinning in those photos. They are supposed to have neutral facial expressions at all times.

I had higher expectations for Leonor than her critics, but even I'm pleasantly surprised at how she blends in seamlessly with her fellow cadets. I'm sure she's a bit annoyed to be photographed, as she wants to be just like her classmates, but it's very rewarding to see her uniform. Her countenance reminds me so much of her father.

 

[kathia_sophia]

I agree that she probably feels annoyed to be photographed. Thankfully, its just for today until the "graduation" day before going to Naval Academy (much like what happened in Wales, first-day pictures and graduation pictures).


I just wonder if we'll see her in the military parade in October for National Day? Or perhaps, at Pascoa Militar in January?

 

[Mbruno]

This isn't hundred years ago. There are thousands of women in the military. This need to think of women as weak and not willing to serve in the army is beyond ridiculous.

I don't think that is what the OP meant to say. Instead, the original message was questioning if Leonor is genuinely interested in military life (as I think her father was at her age), or if she is doing it just because she has no choice.

I don't know the answer honestly, but the second option is not implausible.

 

[Somebody]

Did you expect her to be smiles and giggles? This is military training, and it's serious. If they showed her smiling, she would be accused of not taking it seriously.

And as others have said, this level of training should be expected of ALL heirs. No doubt her program is tailored for her

No, I hoped to see something Iike we saw when Elisabeth started her training. Signs of interest. No need for giggles of course, not sure how that would be linked to being excited about your professional training. Seriousness and being excited about this learning opportunity can go hand in hand.

 

[victor1319]

The mood here in the thread is very warlike... Yeah, duty, iron will, emancipation!

But war is ripped off limbs, blood and death! It is not very cool! The limbs of the Princess of Asturias wont be ripped off. She wont get a shot in her cute head. - She is just a mascot. She will not got to war. It is just a show!

 

[MARG]

First images of Princess of Asturias in the military uniform and receiving her first lessons.

https://www.vanitatis.elconfidencia...eras-fotos-uniforme-militar-academia_3720463/

https://www.hola.com/realeza/20230818237435/primeras-imagenes-princesa-leonor-look-militar/1

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692584528336814128

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692582020038238212

https://twitter.com/x/status/1692579917244805534

I'm not particularly worried about Leonor in regards to having problems because she is a woman.

After all the cadets are pretty bright to even being admitted.
Spain is not a backward country and indeed in a number of ways is way more liberal than say the Scandinavian countries.
On top of that Leonor is the Heir and these cadets wish to have a career within the military and as such we must assume that most come with a set of fairly conservative values, in regards to king and country. And as such they may end up having some sort of affiliation with the monarchy - and their future queen... So p*ssing off Leonor by bullying her may not be a wise strategy!

Also, the instructors, staff and cadets are not stupid, they know Leonor has a specific job to do, where she is going to learn about the military but not being a career soldier. So there is little incentive to a b*stard towards her.

So while she may encounter the odd fool, idiot, macho man and no doubt when they are tired and worn out, get told off, I think most are determined to give her and each other a good experience.

Looking at Leonor's serious demeanor reminds me of the faces of all those around me on the first day of my enlistment fifty years ago. I should imagine she is intent on listening carefully and not missing something important. Nobody wants to look foolish on their first day, week or month, etc. I should imagine that Leonor is feeling the pressure just as much as those around her on this first day. For most it is the first time they will have been away from home and are considered adults and thus are responsible for themselves.

I love her hair with its misshapen bun and endless hair clips. On my course, those that had long hair either aced military updo's or chose to cut their hair. On the upside, by the end of the course those with long hair could put their hair up without a mirror and many with no clips at all. This is probably the first time she has had to put her hair up herself and meet a required standard that makes Mama's look like a walk in in the park.

While Spain is known for its machismo, regardless of country, I believe the military is still the last bastion of male chauvinism and there are and will always be men that do not think women belong anywhere near the front but rather should be limited to the ancillary roles such as secretaries, nurses, cooks etc. Most such men will be smart enough to temper their behaviour but there are other women in the class with Leonor and she will be just as aware as them as to the mindset of those men best kept at a distance.

Leonore has begun her real job. She is not at home with Mama and Papa and staying the course is essential, she really cannot fail as her whole future and that of the Spanish monarchy lies with her. Failure is not an option and for that alone she has my best wishes and prayers. Were I her, I'd be looking serious too.

On a personal note, I always thought that her parents purposely (and selfishly) kept her sheltered for far too long. Wales was a godsend but that meant the people of Spain only really saw pictures of her during holidays and wearing incredibly childish clothes not too dissimilar to that of her younger sister. That is an image that Leonor is going to have to change and instead be seen as a strong, positive, capable woman, and a future leader of men and women. No biggie!

 

[Annine]

Well, the heir from a "Machista" country is doing far more for equality than the heirs from Nordic countries. Countries that, by the way, usually have disproportionally high prevalence rates of intimate partner violence against women.

Speaking as a Norwegian, I'd prefer to see Ingrid do what Leonor is doing, instead of hearing about her oh-so-wonderful meatless birthday gala and seeing her as a supposed "environmental worker". Elisabeth and Leonor are leading by example.

It seems even kids has to be compared just like their parents… Estelle and Christian are in school and has not had the possibility to make their choice just yet. Ingrid is joining the military for a year just like Elisabeth, plans after that has not been anounced. Part of the norwegian military take recruits in august other parts in january, Its not like she is taking 5 months vacation but working in a school, and school children and teachers are also an important part of sosciety, just like the military.

So far I dare say no royal has completed such a tough military education as the very nordic Cp Frederik.

 

[Mbruno]

Both attended colleges based on Kurt Hahn philosophy, only different countries.
I guess it will be a bit difficult for Leonor, as a woman, and she won't do the degree as her classmates will do.
Then going to Uni, older than her classmates.
But she is not an ordinary girl.

Reply moved to the "Royal Military Service" forum.

 

[kathia_sophia]

I have some questions about the Military Academy. Since it has boarding school, Leonor will only visit her parents during holidays? Can't she visit them during weekends, if its allowed?


Is it permitted to use a phone during time off, like for example, in the dorms? They have a curfew?


Sorry for these questions, but I'm curious about life at the Military Academy.

 

[Prinsara]

The mood here in the thread is very warlike... Yeah, duty, iron will, emancipation!

But war is ripped off limbs, blood and death! It is not very cool! The limbs of the Princess of Asturias wont be ripped off. She wont get a shot in her cute head. - She is just a mascot. She will not got to war. It is just a show!

Aside from being patronizing and demeaning about whatever happens to Leonor's "cute head" or not, her grandfather had to stop a coup. And he attributes that largely to having known a lot of the participants from the military academy.

She's going to be CINC, not a mascot. She's doing three years. It's not just a show.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

However, the UK has a completely different model of military education since its military academies are not degree-granting institutions as in the United States, Canada, Belgium, and, I believe, Spain.

Yes, the military academies are also degree-granting institutions. See the syllabus page of the General Military Academy (first posted by lula):

Officers, General Corps of the Spanish Army and Civil Guard, admission without previous university degree

The officers training of the General Corps of the Army (in Spanish CGET) includes, on the one hand, general and specific military formation and, on the other, the corresponding to a university degree of the general education system. Besides it provides with training for the branches that are necessary to perform the different tasks assigned.

For this curriculum the corresponding training for the university degree is provided by the University Center of Defense (CUD), located in the grounds of Academy General Militar (AGM), and attached to the University of Zaragoza. The degree qualification offered is Industrial Management Engineering.

Leonor and Elisabeth are exceptions in the sense of getting (partial) military training in the academies without graduating with a degree and then completing a bachelor's degree at a civilian university when they are older. For Leonor, the (full-time) military training phase is just longer than in Elisabeth's case, meaning that she will be even older when she goes to university.

For Ingrid Alexandra, her one year of military training is the standard for conscripts, most of whom are not expected to pursue a military career.

 

[theroyalfly]

The mood here in the thread is very warlike... Yeah, duty, iron will, emancipation!

But war is ripped off limbs, blood and death! It is not very cool! The limbs of the Princess of Asturias wont be ripped off. She wont get a shot in her cute head. - She is just a mascot. She will not got to war. It is just a show!

Unlike other royals and heirs, she's attending military academy for 3 years. Believe me, that's far from cosplaying.

 

[Mbruno]

Aside from being patronizing and demeaning about whatever happens to Leonor's "cute head" or not, her grandfather had to stop a coup. And he attributes that largely to having known a lot of the participants from the military academy.

She's going to be CINC, not a mascot. She's doing three years. It's not just a show.

Reply moved to the "Royal Military Service" forum.