What bothers you about Abdullah and Rania

[carlota]

Before this thread goes any farther, I'd like to remind everyone that the original purpose of the "What bothers you about Diana" thread was NOT for people who disliked Diana to pile in and have a free-for-all hate-fest. It was an attempt to host a civil, calm, mutually respectful discussion in a non-threatening atmosphere so that people could explain why they felt the way they did in the hope that posters on both sides of the issue would come to a better understanding of the reasoning behind the opinions on the other side.

thanks for saying this elspeth. unfortunately there are some people that when you ask for the others opinions on a subject so that you come to a better understanding they get annoyed... i really hope the conversation doesn't go out of its main aim and that we can all share and show how civilized we are, without getting too passionate. the fact the someone doesn't think like you doesn't mean you have the right to change his or her opinion.

i must say there's nothing that bothers me about them. i don't know much about abdullah as i don't follow him too close, but absolutely nothing to me is bad with rania. i think she does a great job.

 

[Laraib]

It amazing. I mean if a jounalist writes an article about Paris Hilton stating what sort of clothes she wore, is HE the one to blame?I mean that's the sort of REPUTATION Paris Hilton has.So, if writers in the west write about what kind of clothes Rania was wearing, it's probably because that the only thing the western public knows her for.It's not the writes fault.Her carrying around a Gucci bag and dashing down the red carpets in Oscar de la Renta sends a message across to everyone.Is THAT what she wants every women to become?Nothing more than a meaningless object for the pleasure of other men?

 

[lizz70]

The only other woman with her was the education minister of Pakistan. She had her head covered so I doubt we can tell whether she was wearing jewellery.
In my last post I was speaking of the Firsty lady and the PM's wife who visited the area on separate occasions several times. Not to mention Mrs. Annan, and other foreign women who visited the region.

What is so offensive about a simple pair of earrings Rania has worn many, many times before, they weren't even visible much of the time under her hair.
http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/details_pop.aspx?iid=56029766&cdi=0

If this was Rania some people would be complaining about the "designer sunglasses" and the chunky gold earrings. But this happens to be Nane Annan.
Same thing for Condoleeza Rice Is anyone complaining about the earrings and necklace?
There's a definite double standard here. Behaviour that is considered absolutely normal or ignored in other women, is not tolerated in QR.

I dont get the whole makeup thing. If Rania likes to wear makeup, what is wrong with that. Is there some sort of law that says she cant do so. This issue seems to pre-occupy her critics more than anyone else. No one among the victims of the earthquake cared either way, infact from all the coverage i saw in the Pakistani media, Rania's visit was seen as bringing comfort and encouragement. It was her involvement in the immunization campaign that helped immunize thousands of earthquake children against diseases that could've killed them. That was considered more important.

I never heard anyone complain so much about how much makeup a woman's wearing until I saw comments from various posters here on TRF. Either these people come from cultures where makeup is frowned upon or its just another excuse to criticize Rania.
Either way, I dont get it. Infact from my observation Middle Eastern women tend to wear makeup on the very heavy side. And Im not just talking about special events but everyday occassions.

I think what also bothers some people is that Rania is doing all these things, being herself, dressing and being "western" (or what they perceive as western) out in public. Other Arab women, whether wealthy socialites or princesses do the same and much more behind the scenes. The very fact that they're not in the public eye lets them get away with so much more. If some of the Arab societies like Saudi Arabia weren't as close as they are, we'd be hearing some very interesting stories about their royal women that would make Rania look positively tame.

While I agree it is a good thing for those in positions of privilege to 'earn their keep' so to speak by engaging in charitable causes, I do feel your comments about other ME women is rather unfair. At the end of the day, the Gulf countries have extensive wealth to draw on unlike Jordan and so their woman can afford to indulge in luxuries - unlike Jordanian women.

 

[Elspeth]

Queen Rania has been on TV in the United States talking about human rights. If the western public really only knows her as some sort of fashion icon, it isn't because that's the only thing she's ever done here.

Diana used to complain about the same sort of thing - that she'd be treated as some sort of decorative accessory by the press that paid a lot more attention to what she looked like than what she said.

 

[lizz70]

so get rid of parliament, elections and essentially become a dictator?
Isn't that a little dangerous?
More than anything, monarchs want to hold on to their power, that often means giving in to their subjects. If the monarchs get out of control their people often overthrow them. And what comes after that isn't very pleasant. Russia and Iran are a good example.
Like I said in a post before, King Abdullah can make all the laws he wants. He cant change ancient and traditional mindsets. That sort of change cant be forced.
Thats the irony of it all. People in the west claim they want democracy in the ME. But they want Arab leaders to go about implementing it using blatantly un-democratic means. Has that ever worked?
Would you go to a European monarch in the middle ages and ask him to implement democracy in the sense that we now know it in the west? Even someone from the 18 or 19th century would have trouble with the concept.
If there was true democracy in the ME there wouldn't be any pro-western leaders in the region to begin with.
The recent election of Hamas in Palestine is a good example.

With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset. This is the same the world over, people may not like laws that are made but have to abide by them. Abdullah could push for so much more.

 

[lizz70]

oh Little_star dont get me started on the labourers. Its a known fact how the gulf states treat them, most of whom are Asians. The even look down on their poorer fellow Arabs. One of my girlfriends from high school who moved to Dubai with her hubby told me as much and she happens to love living in Dubai. I have heard similar stories from an Indian family that used to live in Dubai. Anyway, that's off-topic and a touchy topic for me so I wont go into it further.

There's quite a bit of resentment here and much of it has to do with the fact that a lot people dont like the Jordanian King and Queen having a higher international profile or being so visible in the west than their own leaders, especially when Jordan is a poor country. And that's why you continuously see the word "US aid" or "handout" being used in an insulting way to describe Jordan and its King and Queen (and these insults are not coming from Jordanians, mind you. Infact they're likely to make most Jordanians angry) That is quite ironic because the image of the wealthy sheikh often has a negative connotation not only in the west but other parts of the world like Asia.
I can guarantee you that if it was some Sheikha in Rania's place she'd be praised to the skies by the same people.

Its also interesting that a lot of this so-called criticism comes from non-Jordanians, as I mentioned above. Over the past few years when I've asked many Jordanian members at TRF what they think of KA and QR, i get replies like, "we respect them because they are our king and queen"
Once I made an off-hand remark about the number of overseas trips KA had made over a short period of time and I got a rather curt response from a Jordanian who basically said, "he is our King and he knows whats best for our country"
If you check out some of the Jordanian blogs, by natives or expats, they are not full of criticism, infact since the November 11 attacks many of them express admiration and pride in KA and QR.

How do you now that some of the posters here are not Jordanian, half-Jordanian or haven't lived for many years in Jordan?? I think you are missing the point, people are not criticizing KA and QR because they have a higher profile than other ME leaders - rather it is because they have both set themselves up as champions of freedom, human rights and democracy and make out as they are single handedly leading the Muslim and Arab world into modernity. They are very high on rhetoric and self aggrandizement but not so hot when it actually comes to delivering. I don't think it is because people hate them as individuals and I personally don't want to see this thread trivialized by such things as make up but she does seem to have a 'Marie Antoinette' lifestyle while her own people are terribly poor. She could tone it down a bit although to be honest, in Jordan you don't get to see a quarter of the photos and articles that are published overseas. Ordinary Jordanians just don't get to see what their King and Queen are up to unl;ess the palace says it is OK.

 

[lizz70]

By the way, isn't it wonderful that we can have discussions like this and exchange views - healthy debate is a good thing.

 

[lizz70]

Queen Rania has been on TV in the United States talking about human rights. If the western public really only knows her as some sort of fashion icon, it isn't because that's the only thing she's ever done here.

Diana used to complain about the same sort of thing - that she'd be treated as some sort of decorative accessory by the press that paid a lot more attention to what she looked like than what she said.

I agree with this statement Elspeth, but Diana was also very media savvy like Queen Rania is and neither of them actively discouraged the publicity or the ego stroking from the press. I don't want to say anything bad about Diana as the woman is dead (God rest her soul) but she didn't exactly dress down, neither does QR. They both love/d the camera's.

 

[closesttoheaven]

With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset. This is the same the world over, people may not like laws that are made but have to abide by them. Abdullah could push for so much more.

I totally agree with you!

 

[ZZZ]

oh Little_star dont get me started on the labourers. Its a known fact how the gulf states treat them, most of whom are Asians. The even look down on their poorer fellow Arabs. One of my girlfriends from high school who moved to Dubai with her hubby told me as much and she happens to love living in Dubai. I have heard similar stories from an Indian family that used to live in Dubai. Anyway, that's off-topic and a touchy topic for me so I wont go into it further.

this is not about labourers who willing choose to leave their country inorder to find a means of survival. it is their choice to work in the gulf and they know what the conditions are like, do you think by not working and staying in their own country would be any better?? at least they have jobs in the gulf, people of the gulf have jobs - both of which are provided by their goverments. unlike jordan that does not try and help its people, people who are willing to work and learn, people who are more than capable - but they have no means provided for them by their "king and queen".

There's quite a bit of resentment here and much of it has to do with the fact that a lot people dont like the Jordanian King and Queen having a higher international profile or being so visible in the west than their own leaders, especially when Jordan is a poor country. And that's why you continuously see the word "US aid" or "handout" being used in an insulting way to describe Jordan and its King and Queen (and these insults are not coming from Jordanians, mind you. Infact they're likely to make most Jordanians angry) That is quite ironic because the image of the wealthy sheikh often has a negative connotation not only in the west but other parts of the world like Asia.
I can guarantee you that if it was some Sheikha in Rania's place she'd be praised to the skies by the same people.

if you consider hand out money or aid to be insulting, that is your derogative. the aid is not insulting, what is insulting is the way the king and queen spend their time using up the money for their extravagance. remember the birthday party they had for prince feisal - it was nearly as elaborate as prince hamza's wedding (which is fine, seeing that is the wedding of a crown prince).

at least the wealthy sheikh spends out of his own pocket, at least the wealthy sheikh's people have food on their table, a roof on their head, clothes on their back, a job to support himself and his family. same goes with a sheikha, a sheikha is extravegant, which she is allowed to be, she has the resources, she has choosen not to flash herself in the media. rania being a queen yields more power than a sheikha, but unlike a sheikha who takes it upon herself, to personally help and support a person in need, rania would much rather run around the world touting her and her husbands rhetoric of democracy. things need to be changed and working at home before she goes out proclaiming jordans accomplishments.

Its also interesting that a lot of this so-called criticism comes from non-Jordanians, as I mentioned above. Over the past few years when I've asked many Jordanian members at TRF what they think of KA and QR, i get replies like, "we respect them because they are our king and queen"
Once I made an off-hand remark about the number of overseas trips KA had made over a short period of time and I got a rather curt response from a Jordanian who basically said, "he is our King and he knows whats best for our country"
If you check out some of the Jordanian blogs, by natives or expats, they are not full of criticism, infact since the November 11 attacks many of them express admiration and pride in KA and QR.

by quoting the person who said "he is our king and he knows what is best for our country" is sort of mispalced guidance and naivity. i know many jordanians who leave jordan because the country does not provide jobs for them. genrealizing that jordanians are in love with their king and queen is easy. if they are so content with them, why not pass up laws of homour killings?? why not place more power in the hands of the king?? even though it is prided on a so called democracy.

 

[lizz70]

I totally agree with you!

Thanks closest, where I live, talk is cheap - lets see some real action from these two and then maybe they wouldn't suffer from such a lack of credibility.

(And I don't mean action in Bond Street or 5th Avenue with a platinum card )

 

[Humera]

With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset. This is the same the world over, people may not like laws that are made but have to abide by them. Abdullah could push for so much more.

maybe you missed my point. It is the Jordanian Parliament that has more than once rejected the law advocating strict punishment for such crimes, despite strong backing from the King and Queen. Which led to Prince Ali participating in a march against this decision. Just like it was the Jordanian parliament who didn't like Rania pushing for equal divorce rights.
The King may have the most power, but he's not a dictator. He cant go about forcing his will, ignoring elected officials and his parliament.
And I am baffled at comments from other posters advocating that the King not only ignore his government, but acquire even more power, essentially taking Jordan 10 steps backward. I wonder if these same people would advocate something similar in their own country and risk turning it into Iran.
Either way, its not likely to happen because KA has said his ultimate goal is a constitutional monarchy.

How do you now that some of the posters here are not Jordanian, half-Jordanian or haven't lived for many years in Jordan??

Its not very difficult to tell. There aren't as many Jordanians here to begin with. A lot of the criticism does come from non-Jordanians, here at TRF and elsewhere. There have been plenty of people here speaking for Jordan though, "If I were Jordanian I wouldn't like this or that"
I can guarantee you the most notorious anti-Rania people aren't Jordanians.
I haven't spent all this time here without observing a thing or two about these people.

 

[Humera]

unlike a sheikha who takes it upon herself, to personally help and support a person in need, rania would much rather run around the world touting her and her husbands rhetoric of democracy.

I dont even know where to begin on this one.
There are plenty of people QR has help not just in her own country but outside it as well. Infact she seems to speak out for issues no one else is interested in. I am not going to sit here and convince you or anyone.
I have been through this thing before and usually people who who are inclined to think one day dont change their minds.
The internet is a great resource and there's plenty to be found on all QR has done. You dont earn the respect of international organizations and leaders just because you're pretty. Rania is an intelligent woman who knows how to get her point across. It is well-documented that anyone who has worked with her has commented on how she never trades on her looks, always means business and not only has a talent for bringing a unique point-of-view but also for often talking people into helping her causes, especially when they invovle Jordan.
Either way, its not my job to persuade anyone. I started off knowing nothing about Rania or the JRF. If it were up to the naysayers I encountered an TRF at the time I'd be believing in the gossips and lies too. But I'd rather find things out on my own.

a sheikha is extravegant, which she is allowed to be, she has the resources, she has choosen not to flash herself in the media.

Im beggining to understand this now. Extravagance, no matter how tacky and shalow, is fine as long as its done by a wealthy person behind the prying eyes of the camera. How wonderful.

I prefer Rania's way. At least its honest. Her life is open for everyone to see.
She's not trying to appease the so-called critics by covering herself head to toe in public while indulging herself behind the palace doors.

if you consider hand out money or aid to be insulting, that is your derogative. the aid is not insulting

I dont consider it insulting but the people who throw these words about do. I dont know many times the word "handout" is used in a disparaging way to describe this couple. People have gone as far as using the word beggar. Im not just inventing things here. None of this is new. Its not difficult for me to tell who has constructive criticism in mind and who is criticizing just for the sake of criticism.

remember the birthday party they had for prince feisal - it was nearly as elaborate as prince hamza's wedding

that is quite an exaggeration!
It was a private and intimate party with no where near as many guests as Hamzah's wedding.

by quoting the person who said "he is our king and he knows what is best for our country" is sort of mispalced guidance and naivity

Not at all, infact I remember that poster was rather active and articulate in getting the Jordanian point of view across. That particular response, infact, was a frustrated reaction to the constant criticism levelled at KA and QR.

 

[Little_star]

I've asked this many many times:

Please would somebody provide the evidence that Rania and Abdullah are using their aid money on themselves? These allegations amount to gross corruption if true, so a bit of evidence wouldn't go amiss?

 

[closesttoheaven]

I've asked this many many times:

Please would somebody provide the evidence that Rania and Abdullah are using their aid money on themselves? These allegations amount to gross corruption if true, so a bit of evidence wouldn't go amiss?

i dunno - but i hope the dun do so!

 

[nayeli0016]

It would be a shame if it is true.

 

[lizz70]

maybe you missed my point. It is the Jordanian Parliament that has more than once rejected the law advocating strict punishment for such crimes, despite strong backing from the King and Queen. Which led to Prince Ali participating in a march against this decision. Just like it was the Jordanian parliament who didn't like Rania pushing for equal divorce rights.
The King may have the most power, but he's not a dictator. He cant go about forcing his will, ignoring elected officials and his parliament.
And I am baffled at comments from other posters advocating that the King not only ignore his government, but acquire even more power, essentially taking Jordan 10 steps backward. I wonder if these same people would advocate something similar in their own country and risk turning it into Iran.
Either way, its not likely to happen because KA has said his ultimate goal is a constitutional monarchy.


Its not very difficult to tell. There aren't as many Jordanians here to begin with. A lot of the criticism does come from non-Jordanians, here at TRF and elsewhere. There have been plenty of people here speaking for Jordan though, "If I were Jordanian I wouldn't like this or that"
I can guarantee you the most notorious anti-Rania people aren't Jordanians.
I haven't spent all this time here without observing a thing or two about these people.

Are you of Jordanian origin HUmera?

 

[lizz70]

I would also disagree with your assertion the QR is the only person taking an interest in 'unfashionable' causes. Many celebrities take up causes but it isn't only for altruistic purposes, they do also get a payoff in positive PR and publicity. I personally have more time for the unnamed thousands who freely give of their time, without getting any glory for it and do the charity work day in and day out, whether the causes are fashionable in the celebrity politics world that Rania inhabits or not.

This is not to say that I don't think QR is bad, I think it is good that she has causes to support but she is no different from any other royal lady in this respect.

 

[Little_star]

"With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset."

62% of Jordanians polled by the Jordan Times said they were in favour of honour killing and believed banning it would lead t "moal corruption".
The only thing bannnig it would do what be to create a situation similar to that of bride-burning in India.

 

[Laraib]

I've asked this many many times:

Please would somebody provide the evidence that Rania and Abdullah are using their aid money on themselves? These allegations amount to gross corruption if true, so a bit of evidence wouldn't go amiss?

....And do you have any proof that they DON'T use the money on themselves.We all saw the lavish vacation they all took last summer on their, I don't know, 3 yatches and shopping sprees across Paris and NewYork. If this is called using your aid money wisley than, well...

 

[lizz70]

In addition, with Jordan being a country with no natural resources, major industries etc, it is well known that Jordan is kept afloat by overseas money. Whether people deem this a handout or not depends upon their point of view however, I think trying to turn Jordan into a hub for service industries is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted as other ME countries are already doing that as we speak.

 

[lizz70]

"With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset."

62% of Jordanians polled by the Jordan Times said they were in favour of honour killing and believed banning it would lead t "moal corruption".
The only thing bannnig it would do what be to create a situation similar to that of bride-burning in India.

Yes it would, still illegal but taking place on a much lesser scale.

 

[lizz70]

"With regard to honour killings - murder is murder and should be punishes as such. the King can enforce such laws even if he cannot change the mindset."

62% of Jordanians polled by the Jordan Times said they were in favour of honour killing and believed banning it would lead t "moal corruption".
The only thing bannnig it would do what be to create a situation similar to that of bride-burning in India.

So that makes it alright then???????????

 

[Humera]

I've asked this many many times:

Please would somebody provide the evidence that Rania and Abdullah are using their aid money on themselves? These allegations amount to gross corruption if true, so a bit of evidence wouldn't go amiss?

I doubt you'll find evidence, not unless people making these claims have access to the royal family's and Jordan's financial figures.

But I can tell you this much. A lot of the aid money is known to be put into developmental projects. There are websites for various organizations like USAID that operate within Jordan. Laura Bush visited some of these places including schools built with US money when she was in Jordan in May of last year.

The aid money, how and what it is spent on, isn't given out like peanuts. Most developed nations aren't in the habit of handing out their money into personal accounts without knowing where its going. They have taxpayers who want to know that their money isn't being used to fill the coffers of a foreign leader. This is especially true since September 11, 2001 which has made western donors very cautious about their donations.

In Canada, every so often, we hear announcements about aid being donated to countries like Jordan and where that money is going to be spent, on what specific projects (education, healthcare, training projects etc) under supervision of our government and representatives. If we give money to some country and dont see it being put into the projects it is meant for, trust me, people and especially the media are going to take notice.
And I believe the same is true of other western nations.

 

[Little_star]

"....And do you have any proof that they DON'T use the money on themselves".

I'm not the one making incorrect assertions. You make an allegation you back it up with proof, that's how it works. Yet another rumour that has proven to be completely false it seems.

"We all saw the lavish vacation they all took last summer on their, I don't know, 3 yatches and shopping sprees across Paris and NewYork."
They spent 2 weeks in Croatia, hardly lavish. Shopping sprees in New York and Paris? A few pictres of Rania in Paris with her children (and I believe te visit coincided with hr work) equals a shopping spree?

"If this is called using your aid money wisley than, well..."

Proof? Evidence? Factual documentation? Yet again you haven't provided any so we must deduce you are spinning tales and spreading rumours for your own reasons.

 

[lizz70]

I doubt you'll find evidence, not unless people making these claims have access to the royal family's and Jordan's financial figures.

But I can tell you this much. A lot of the aid money is known to be put into developmental projects. There are websites for various organizations like USAID that operate within Jordan. Laura Bush visited some of these places including schools built with US money when she was in Jordan in May of last year.

The aid money, how and what it is spent on, isn't given out like peanuts. Most developed nations aren't in the habit of handing out their money into personal accounts without knowing where its going. They have taxpayers who want to know that their money isn't being used to fill the coffers of a foreign leader. This is especially true since September 11, 2001 which has made western donors very cautious about their donations.

In Canada, every so often, we hear announcements about aid being donated to countries like Jordan and where that money is going to be spent, on what specific projects (education, healthcare, training projects etc) under supervision of our government and representatives. If we give money to some country and dont see it being put into the projects it is meant for, trust me, people and especially the media are going to take notice.
And I believe the same is true of other western nations.

Extra money always makes it s way to the top with aid donations. It is the way the system operates and it is well known that USA funds it 'friends' and their lifestyles. There are plenty of examples fromhistory so Jordan is nothing special in tht regard.

 

[lizz70]

"....And do you have any proof that they DON'T use the money on themselves".

I'm not the one making incorrect assertions. You make an allegation you back it up with proof, that's how it works. Yet another rumour that has proven to be completely false it seems.

"We all saw the lavish vacation they all took last summer on their, I don't know, 3 yatches and shopping sprees across Paris and NewYork."
They spent 2 weeks in Croatia, hardly lavish. Shopping sprees in New York and Paris? A few pictres of Rania in Paris with her children (and I believe te visit coincided with hr work) equals a shopping spree?

"If this is called using your aid money wisley than, well..."

Proof? Evidence? Factual documentation? Yet again you haven't provided any so we must deduce you are spinning tales and spreading rumours for your own reasons.

Again, can you prove that they don't??? Please back up your assertions with proof as you are asking others to do.

 

[Humera]

Are you of Jordanian origin HUmera?

no im not.

 

[Little_star]

"So that makes it alright then???????????"

Please point out where I stated it was ok? You're missing the point. Banning it would achieve nothing because the mindset that it is ok would still prevail. The practice would still continue with people opting for sneakier means as has happened in India with bride burning and dowry killings. With no evidence of a crime the police investigating honour killings would be left with lots of murdered women and no suspects.

Moreover, even if they manages to arrest and charge somebody with the crime, they would still have to face the courts and the very real possibility, that should be probability, of a judge who is sympathetic to the murderer.

 

[Little_star]

"Again, can you prove that they don't??? Please back up your assertions with proof as you are asking others to do."

I'm not asserting that they don't.
However, I am questioning the claims made by people (yourself included it seems) which are baseless from the lack of evidence provided.
I asked a simple question and nobody seems to be able to answer it substantially, ergo the allegations are false. It's a simple concept.