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-   -   "Royals and the Reich: Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany" Jonathan Petropoulos 2006 (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f61/royals-and-the-reich-princes-von-hessen-in-nazi-germany-jonathan-petropoulos-2006-a-9105.html)

Warren 03-09-2011 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COUNTESS (Post 1213928)
Warren, I admire that you think this subject has been "discussed since 2006", so it won't be "pushed" to the back burner.

I certainly wan't trying to be glib. My intention was pointing out that at least in this small corner of the forums there's enough interest in the subject, and enough knowledgeable contributors, to keep the discussion running over an extended period. That's a positive sign.

Yes, there will always be apologists and deniers (and agenda-pushers rehashing Zionist conspiracy theories as we've seen recently in the Russian forum) but hopefully there will always be staff and members here who won't allow those type of posts - and members - to remain unchallenged.

nascarlucy 03-09-2011 07:31 PM

What anyone ever brought to justice who was either directly or indirectly responsible for the torture or murders of European royalty during World War II? Or taking their property illegally. I don't recall hearing that anyone was.

I would think that if there were individuals around who were known to have taken part in this (beating, torturing or murdering a royal) or if it was proven that certain individuals whose actions either directly or indirectly (one example turning them into the police) caused injury or death to a royal that the entire Royal establishment would demand that these individuals be brought to justice. I would also think that those who took the royals property would also be prosecuted in the court system.

COUNTESS 03-09-2011 08:30 PM

Why is beating, torturing a royal, any different, from those whose beat tortured and murdered millions of others? Roland Freisler, the judge, in the trails of the 20th of July attempt on Hitler's life, was killed in an air raid in 1945. You are young and very niave.

Than you, Warren, I saw that stuff on the Russian site and was very dismayed.

nascarlucy 03-10-2011 06:23 PM

It's isn't. It's just how the court system handles cases like this. A person or persons who harm or murder someone who is socially or economically much higher than themselves are more likely to have the book thrown at them than if the victim is someone who is just your average person. You see this in the United States and through the world. No doubt those who killed and tortured royals during the reign of Hilter killed many many others as well.

If the countries who were involved in the war took a honest look at what civilian and non-civilian person did, there probably would have been hundreds or perhaps thousands of people charged with some type of war crimes (mostly for violating the civil rights and either indirectly or directly causing the deaths of Jews, gypies, gays, people who were different, people who had medical or health issues). No country really wanted to face the truth about this. Sometimes the truth is very ugly, so it's easier to block it out than to face the truth.

How many people knew the people who were not charged with war crimes who did these things? They kept silence perhaps because they feared that they could be implicated as well. Only a small fraction of those who committed war crimes were charged and they were the Nazi leadership that were caught. Others fled.

COUNTESS 03-10-2011 08:09 PM

You are quite right. It was just a small portion of those who prepertrated or, actually, committed the crimes were charged. Many fled through the Vatican escape tunnel. Learnng a lesson is painful. You have to care.

PrincessKaimi 03-10-2011 10:41 PM

But, there is an interpretation (above), in which if some class of people (royals) hold themselves to be above the law, then those who experience the strong arm of the law eventually rebel. This is often of "not good" consequence to the royals.

A true monarch knows this; he or she rules at the will of the people - and of certain principles. Noble means principled.

This is why it is very, very difficult to accept when a true noble (and there were many who truly fulfilled their noble roles) is killed by the less-noble. The less-noble think they are going to be more noble, but often (as history tells us), they are not more noble.

It almost seems an endless circle, and perhaps it is.

PrincessKaimi 03-10-2011 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nascarlucy (Post 1214413)
What anyone ever brought to justice who was either directly or indirectly responsible for the torture or murders of European royalty during World War II? Or taking their property illegally. I don't recall hearing that anyone was.

I would think that if there were individuals around who were known to have taken part in this (beating, torturing or murdering a royal) or if it was proven that certain individuals whose actions either directly or indirectly (one example turning them into the police) caused injury or death to a royal that the entire Royal establishment would demand that these individuals be brought to justice. I would also think that those who took the royals property would also be prosecuted in the court system.

Well, this is a good question. Were the post-war trials about "atrocities against nobility" or not? Were some atrocities prosecuted and others not prosecuted? It's an historical question and I do not, at all, know the answer.

The case I know best is Russia. No one has been brought to trial for the killing of nobility there. NorI, I predict, will anyone ever be brought to trial.

I would like to be proved wrong.

David V 03-11-2011 01:44 AM

The issue is that relatives and descendants of victims, and living victims, always want no less than a sense of justice and closure so they can be at peace. And it doesn't just apply to the Nazis, but many things that have happened since, within our lifetimes.

COUNTESS 03-11-2011 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi (Post 1214881)
Well, this is a good question. Were the post-war trials about "atrocities against nobility" or not? Were some atrocities prosecuted and others not prosecuted? It's an historical question and I do not, at all, know the answer.

The case I know best is Russia. No one has been brought to trial for the killing of nobility there. NorI, I predict, will anyone ever be brought to trial.

I would like to be proved wrong.

There were no trials, specifically, for a harm (death or injury), because someone was royal. The trials were much broader in scope.

nascarlucy 03-11-2011 09:56 PM

That's true. The crimes committed were against mankind in general. Because millions of people died, the crimes were labeled as crimes against humanity. Royals were a very tiny percentage of those who atrocities were committed against. The majority of people who were victimized were average people, just like you and I.

Only a fraction of those responsible for these crimes were ever tried (most were in the Nazi leadership) as others were able to escape and others were allowed safe passage out of Europe. Even though the Nazi leadership was overthrown, there still were people out there who supported them, protected them and helped them escape to avoid prosecution.

Ruhije 03-22-2012 07:23 PM

European Royals Murdered.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by James VI (Post 1390608)
Princess Mafalda of Savoy ( 1902-44 ) Second daughter of King Victor Emmanuel II of Italy. On the surrender of Italy to the allies, in 1943, Mafalda, wife of Prince Phillip of Hesse, was arrested by the Gestapo and interned in the Buchenwald concentration camp. Mafalda died there, as a result of injuries she received during an allied bombing raid on the camp, in August 1944. Not technically murder, however, if she had not been interned there by the Nazi regime.....As a side point, Mafalda`s husband had been named as a potential King of Finland, when that nation declared it`s independence from Russia, in December 1917. This ambition was never realised, but if it had happened, and Mafalda had still married Phillip in 1925, she would have become Queen consort of Finland.

Thats an interesting, and very tragic, case of recent murdered/killed Royals.
Ive just finished an interesting book on her husbands family during this period of history - Royals and The Reich - by Jonathan Petropoulos.
Which links to another relative of Princess Mafalda of Savoy, her brother-in-law, King (Tsar) Boris III of Bulgaria, who died in extremely suspicious circumstances in 1943 shortly after returning to Bulgaria after a visit to Adolf Hitler at the Berghof in Germany.
This had been a very angry exchange and difficult meeting between King Boris and Hitler, with arguments and disagreements over King Boris and Bulgaria's situation and involvement in the war, particularly concerning King Boris's resistance and refusal to involve Bulgarian troops on the Eastern Front fighting the Russians, and the deportation of Bulgarian Jews.
It is widely believed King Boris was poisoned by the Nazis before he left Germany, although some theories suggest the Soviets as a possibility.
King Boris was married to Princess Mafalda of Savoy's sister, Princess Giovanna of Savoy (Queen/Tsarina of Bulgaria).
They are the parents of King Simeon II of Bulgaria.


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