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Lady Marmalade 03-09-2006 11:35 PM

"Royals and the Reich: Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany" Jonathan Petropoulos 2006
 
There appears to be a new book coming out later in the spring discussing the details between the royals and Nazi Germany. It will focus primarily on the relationship between the many German royal and aristocratic families and their ties to Hitler and the Reich.

Prince Philip has contributed to it and some of his comments have been printed in the British newspapers in regards to his sisters and brothers-in-law.

Should make for some very interesting reading.

crisiñaki 03-09-2006 11:39 PM

Well since most of the people mentioned in the book is dead it's gonna be one of those that exposes the dirty laundry of the RF in the Third Reich, i would like to hear about Prince Berhard's brother who was a very hard core TR supporter while PB defended the Netherlands, interesting pair of brothers:rolleyes: :cool: :D

Lady Marmalade 03-09-2006 11:46 PM

I agree. It will be interesting to see how it pitted cousin against cousin as most were related but fought on opposite sides.

norwegianne 03-10-2006 02:42 AM

It could be a very interesting book.

Jo of Palatine 03-10-2006 07:26 AM

It quite a difficult topic as there is not only the point pro-Nazi and con-Nazi.
it is true eg that most memebers of formerly reigning houses of Germany were against the Nazis while nobles who had lost their souverainity in 1802-1806 often made themselves a new place as courtiers or officers in the service of the greater states that were formed then. These nobles tended to be loyal to the state, even after the abolishment of monarchies in Germany and Austria in 1918/1919.

I mean - as a German born in 1962 I have often wondered what made the older Germans follow this pack of criminals when they took over the country in 1933. The most convincing reason I could find (you surely believe me when I say that the "reason" "All Germans were criminals" did not appeal to me <grin>) was that Germans were trained over centuries to stay loyal to the "Obrigkeit" ("authorities"), so they simply couldn't believe the government to be a bunch of murdering criminals. It was a time with very limited information after all and the Nazis very soon took control of the media.

But - a lot of Royals held a grundge towards the people who formed the first democracy (Republic of Weimar). They lost their realms, after all. So when democracy made it possible that the up-start Hitler (who was Austrian, BTW) gained control over Germany, they immediately opposed him.

Other nobles stayed loyal to the state till they realized what kind of government was representing their state. Others, especially officers only turned against the government when they realized that the army they belonged to was loosing the war and the Nazis didn't do anything to save them. Others only started doubting after the war when the truth was finally out in the open.

So it surely is a very complex and personal thing why some nobles opposed the Nazis and others supported them. Because it's difficult to say where the real obligations lay for each of them: with their country (and thus the Nazis) true to the long tradition? Or against the country because it had been "hi-jacked" by the Nazis? Against the Nazis because they were not a good government? With the army? Against the war?

It's a very complex thing, I guess, but I'm sure a book in which Prince Philip took a part will tackle the question in an appropriate manner, with in-depth research and scientific merits.

Greetings from Germany, Jo

Lady Marmalade 03-10-2006 11:07 AM

Thank you, Jo, for all your input and information. I hope you will continue to post on here once the book is out and we have had a chance to read it. :)

I am always fascinated by the book discussions and find them the most interesting ones to discuss as it is based on factual knowledge.

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 11:10 AM

I just see this as a chance to bash innocent people who did nothing wrong but follow a political party. The fact that they happen to be Royal doesn't mean a thing.

qui mal y pense 03-10-2006 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I just see this as a chance to bash innocent people who did nothing wrong but follow a political party. The fact that they happen to be Royal doesn't mean a thing.

How do you figure? A political party!
There's an excellent book about Queen Victoria's grandchildren. Many of them married into the various German houses- and enthusiastically supported the Nazis.
This support included donations. Additionally public figures who support political parties are well aware that their support lends credence to the party which makes it easier for others less informed to assume that if "upstanding" royals support them then its a good idea.

You don't see too many royals today pushing particular political agendas.

Marengo 03-10-2006 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crisiñaki
Well since most of the people mentioned in the book is dead it's gonna be one of those that exposes the dirty laundry of the RF in the Third Reich, i would like to hear about Prince Berhard's brother who was a very hard core TR supporter while PB defended the Netherlands, interesting pair of brothers:rolleyes: :cool: :D

Where did you find that Prince Aschwin of Lippe-Biesterfield was a hardcore nazi supporter? I always thought he wasn't that involved in nazism, and I think that if he were, the dutch RF would not have invited him over, not publicly anyway (as they did, he is even the godfather of Prince Constantijn).

Now, there were many other staunch Nazi's among german royalty, though in overall royalty and nazism didn't really go together, even Kaiser Wilhelm II was totally against it.

I believe Phillips brother-in-law, Prince ? of Hesse-Kasssel was a fierce Nazi, as was the Prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont. The latter even escorted Princess Antonia of Bavaria to a concentrationcamp.

I wonder why Mafalda of Hesse-Kassel was arrested and also locked up in a concentrationcamp (where she died from allied bombs) as she was the daughter of the King of Italy, a befriended country of Germany and her husband was a Nazi as well.

Warren 03-10-2006 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I just see this as a chance to bash innocent people who did nothing wrong but follow a political party. The fact that they happen to be Royal doesn't mean a thing.

The subject encompasses Royal history and is therefore relevant (and interesting) to many members. For every prince who supported the National Socialists there were those who opposed the regime. The names of the supporters are no secret; hopefully the book will attempt to analyse their motivations. If Prince Philip has contributed, chances are the author won't be painting people in black and white terms.

Marengo 03-10-2006 11:42 AM

True Warren, I believe more were against it, or at least spectival then actual supporters.
I believe Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia was involved in the plot to kill Hitler. When the SS came to question him about his role he gave them so much wine that they became drunk/tipsy and he was of the hook :)

Warren 03-10-2006 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo
I believe Phillips brother-in-law, Prince ? of Hesse-Kasssel was a fierce Nazi, as was the Prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont. The latter even escorted Princess Antonia of Bavaria to a concentrationcamp.

I wonder why Mafalda of Hesse-Kassel was arrested and also locked up in a concentrationcamp (where she died from allied bombs) as she was the daughter of the King of Italy, a befriended country of Germany and her husband was a Nazi as well.

Prince Philip's sister Princess Sophie was married to Prince Christoph of Hesse (-Cassel).
According to Albert Speer Princess Mafalda "had been done to death by the SS at Buchenwald in 1944 as part of the Fuehrer's revenge for Victor Emmanuel's desertion to the Allied side." We know that she died in Allied bombing, but the SS didn't put her in a concentration camp for her own safety.

The SS placed troops in Schloss Altshausen to keep watch on the Duke of W&#252;rttemberg; the Prince of Thurn und Taxis had one of his castles bombed in an attempt to 'bring him into line'; Wittelsbach Princes and Princesses were rounded up in Italy and sent back East to the concentration camps. There are plenty of stories to be told, from both sides.

sesa 03-10-2006 11:54 AM

I for one am extremely interested in this subject (now). I'm ashamed to admit, that I have personally chosen to remain ignorant of WWI, WWII & everything that has do with Hitler.
Just last year, I started reading something here on this site that had something to do with the above mentioned. I started digging a little further and found out about how Royalty played a part in the war. Now I am engrossed in the subject and find it extremely interesting on how things played out.
So please, Jo, and anyone else who can enlighten me more on the subject, please continue to post here. I find your knowledged and opinions amazing and interesting. And please, if you find out the name and release date of the book, please post it here! I may even go and buy it !!!!:)

Skydragon 03-10-2006 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo
I wonder why Mafalda of Hesse-Kassel was arrested and also locked up in a concentrationcamp (where she died from allied bombs) as she was the daughter of the King of Italy, a befriended country of Germany and her husband was a Nazi as well.

I read that she was injured during the bombing and as a result had to have an arm amputated, she was weak because of the forced labor and lack of food. She died the day after the bombing from a combination of these things.

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 12:33 PM

Quote:

How do you figure? A political party!
Well that's what the National Socialists were. A political party that people followed. It was only once they were in power that it became a way of life and not a political party. People, including Royalty, hardly had a choice whether to join the party or not so what will this book actually achieve other than naming and attempting to shame.

HRH Kerry 03-10-2006 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sesa
I for one am extremely interested in this subject (now). I'm ashamed to admit, that I have personally chosen to remain ignorant of WWI, WWII & everything that has do with Hitler.
Just last year, I started reading something here on this site that had something to do with the above mentioned. I started digging a little further and found out about how Royalty played a part in the war. Now I am engrossed in the subject and find it extremely interesting on how things played out.
So please, Jo, and anyone else who can enlighten me more on the subject, please continue to post here. I find your knowledged and opinions amazing and interesting. And please, if you find out the name and release date of the book, please post it here! I may even go and buy it !!!!:)

I'm here also to learn. Some of these followers were doing what they believed to be the right thing, then you have some that were just evil through and through regardless of being royal. I believe some acted on thoughts of self-preservation and or to gain favor.

Can't wait for the book. Want to see what is said about Kaiser Wilhelm amongst others.

MOLEY 03-10-2006 03:28 PM

It does sound like an intresting subject , but i do hope it isn't a book full of accusations and old news. i saw the picture in the papers this week of phillip at the funeral of princess cecile standing next to gentlemen in nazi uniform and i only glimpsed it as the newspaper belonged to the person next to me on the tube so i couldn't see if it was a good article.

Lady Marmalade 03-10-2006 05:52 PM

We must remember that not all of the various German royal and aristocratic familes supported Hitler. One must realize the immense brainwashing of what was going on at the time in Germany.

I am sure the small number of Royals who truly and enthusiastically supported Hitler and his regime of disgust and venom are VERY small compared to the many stories I have read and heard about others who were whole-heartedly opposed and could watch only in horror as to what was going on all over Germany in their various duchies and properties, cities, and regions.

Many paid a heavy price for standing against him both in secret venues and even publicly.

Many younger royals were even forced to join the Hitler Youth against their will as at the time maybe the only other alternative was death.

What I am trying to say is this is such a precarious subject to write about that we have only heard bits and pieces and scraps and not a good, full dose of the realities.

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 05:54 PM

I think also we have to remember that National Socialism was a wonderful new theory in Germany. It was brilliant and people followed because it brought the ordinary German success and prosperity. It was only after the war that the holocaust was actually revealed, so people who were in the party, the Pope and Prince Philip's relatives included, would have seen only good in Nazism.

Lady Marmalade 03-10-2006 06:07 PM

I love the flow of ideas on here.

I cannot wait for this book now to see all of our reactions once we have had a chance to read it.

You are alluding to some great points Sam. Prince Philip himself said in published newspapers quotes that the effects of what occured at the BEGINNING under Hitler were not that bad in the sense of trains running on time and the economy expanding.

I AM JUST REPEATING WHAT I HAD FROM VARIOUS BRITISH NEWSPAPERS WEBSITES IN THE PAST WEEK.

IN NO WAY AM I PUTTING WORDS IN HRH PRINCE PHILIP'S MOUTH.

Thank you all.

Lillia 03-10-2006 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think also we have to remember that National Socialism was a wonderful new theory in Germany. It was brilliant and people followed because it brought the ordinary German success and prosperity. It was only after the war that the holocaust was actually revealed, so people who were in the party, the Pope and Prince Philip's relatives included, would have seen only good in Nazism.

Well, interesting idea -- but I think that like most things, people only see and acknowledge what they want. I certainly was not born back then, but I would have to think that at least some of the ordinary Germans knew what was going on, in spite of all the wonderous things that they may have benifitted from because of it. And even while it may not have been that they themselves were visiting camps and all, and that at least a few ordinary people knew what was going on politically -- I would think it abit of a stretch that ordinary people would have known absolutely nothing at all and were innocent/ignorant of what would have been happening in their own country. But of course, that's just my own opinion, I was not there, so I would not have a personal experience of that.

This is just a question, not mean to offend anyone but only to inquire on the context of the above posting -- would that mean then that those stories I heard about other ordinary people being taken away or being forced to wear ceetain identifying markers and things like that would have happened away from the view of ordinary people, but occured only in very select areas and not really widespread around the country and out in the open?:confused:

Again, my question is a mere inquiry and actually an invitation for someone/anyone to educate me more on the subject if they would know -- I mean no offence to anyone.

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 07:13 PM

Well people had to wear yellow, pink and red stars AFAIK. And yes, there were Aryan-only areas. Jews were restricted from doing alot, so the German people would have seen it.

Lillia 03-10-2006 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Well people had to wear yellow, pink and red stars AFAIK. And yes, there were Aryan-only areas. Jews were restricted from doing alot, so the German people would have seen it.

What is AFAIK?

And I do understand your point about the idea being, in theory, one that was well recieved, at least in the beginning (I think that's what you mean -- if not, please do correct me) for what it seemed to offer, I mean the percieved benefits, not really the bad things

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 07:23 PM

AFAIK : As far as I know

That is what I meant. And to be honest, Hitler was such an inspiring man and was a great orator so he could make you believe anything - and people did. Listen to his speeches sometime - they make your spine tingle.

Lady Jennifer 03-10-2006 07:27 PM

Just wondering but isn't this book out already? I was just looking on Barnes & Noble & there is a book with the same name (or at least pretty close)- Royals and the Reich: The Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany
This book came out in Feb. 2006

Lillia 03-10-2006 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
AFAIK : As far as I know

That is what I meant. And to be honest, Hitler was such an inspiring man and was a great orator so he could make you believe anything - and people did. Listen to his speeches sometime - they make your spine tingle.

Yes, I've heard commentators say that he had alot of charisma, which helped him to gain popularity, and he probably said alot of the things that people wanted to hear or needed to hear about themselves.

Politicians today bank on their own charisma as well to get what they want, which could also be a scary thing if people today are not careful and vigilant, I think.

michelleq 03-10-2006 08:25 PM

I'm sorry, but what is the name of this book that is due out soon?

oskana 03-10-2006 09:57 PM

i dont buy anyone who says that people (ordinary or not) didnt know about the holocaust and the abuse prior to that. ofcourse many knew and some didnt. many chose to turn a blind eye which was understandable. in the beggining nazism was well recieved not only bec of Hitler's charisma but also bec of deteriorating economic conditions in germany of that time. nazism provided a solution (or so believed) to those problems. I hope this book is informative rather than to simply shame or embarass royals.

Skydragon 03-11-2006 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillia
This is just a question, not mean to offend anyone but only to inquire on the context of the above posting -- would that mean then that those stories I heard about other ordinary people being taken away or being forced to wear certain identifying markers and things like that would have happened away from the view of ordinary people, but occured only in very select areas and not really widespread around the country and out in the open?:confused:

Again, my question is a mere inquiry and actually an invitation for someone/anyone to educate me more on the subject if they would know -- I mean no offence to anyone.

It happened mainly in the poorer areas to start with, I don't think the 'better' areas were as affected.

The royals concerned were just ordinary people, trying to survive and just like ordinary people now, couldn't believe that anyone could possibly be so wicked. If you are incapable of such an atrocity yourself, It is beyond your belief that anyone else could do such things.

Warren 03-11-2006 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by michelleq
I'm sorry, but what is the name of this book that is due out soon?

"Royals and the Reich: the Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany."
See Lady Jennifer's post #25 below for more detail.

HRH Kerry 03-11-2006 10:20 AM

The book received 5 stars from Amazon.com so besides my interest from the posts by you guys, I'd say its going to be an enlightening read. I'm going to be out and about today and if I don't find it at one of my local bookstores then I will be ordering from Amazon tonight.

melissajames 03-11-2006 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I think also we have to remember that National Socialism was a wonderful new theory in Germany. It was brilliant and people followed because it brought the ordinary German success and prosperity. It was only after the war that the holocaust was actually revealed, so people who were in the party, the Pope and Prince Philip's relatives included, would have seen only good in Nazism.

Do you think the propaganda actually concealed the holocaust and what are the chances that the royals did not know about it?

BeatrixFan 03-11-2006 11:33 AM

Quote:

Do you think the propaganda actually concealed the holocaust and what are the chances that the royals did not know about it?
It's possible. I believe that the ordinary Germans were told that the Jews were in Labour camps or were being sent away to be transported to other countries. Very few people knew about them being killed - and those who lived nearby either worked in the camps or were moved out and troops moved in.

susan alicia 03-11-2006 01:32 PM

any thoughts about what the followers of Hitler did to lovely men like the one portrayed by marcello mastroianni in:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076085/

wonder if that makes your spine tingle too.




Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
AFAIK : As far as I know

That is what I meant. And to be honest, Hitler was such an inspiring man and was a great orator so he could make you believe anything - and people did. Listen to his speeches sometime - they make your spine tingle.


BeatrixFan 03-11-2006 01:34 PM

Not sure what you mean Susan_Alicia.

melissajames 03-11-2006 01:47 PM

I agree with Beatrixfan, from what I know of Hitler that he was a man with the gift to inspire and draw people to believe him. He provided a vision and inspired people who were in absolute desperation because of the aftermath of WW1.

But I want to emphasis that he was a man who used his gift and talent to evil evil means, so awful that I wonder if anyone could have had enough courage to stand up to him even if they knew exactly what was going on. I identify zero with the propaganda ideals but I have to admit, this man was a genius when it came to manipulating people.

I can't make up my mind yet to what extent the royals were to blame and how big a part they played. But history belong to the victors and I am not sure whether there is ever any unbiased views as such.

Yennie 03-11-2006 02:08 PM

Recently there have been discussions in swedish press about prince Gustav Adolf (father of the present King) and his relations with germany. He was married to Sibylla, born in Germany in a noble family. Her father was a nazi and friends with Hitler.
Per Svennsson writes in the book "Han som aldrig fick bli kung" that the circle that the prince belonged to often sympathized with Hitler, but that it is impossible to say if the prince had nazi sympaties
Nina Eldh at the swedish royal court says:
I dont know if the prince ever said anything that could imply that he symapthized with the nazis

There was a photo published where the prince is seen giving money to a nazi at some social event in Berlin 1939

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/5...03a78lo.th.jpg
photo from expressen

http://expressen.se/index.jsp?a=541796

Jo of Palatine 03-11-2006 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissajames
But history belong to the victors and I am not sure whether there is ever any unbiased views as such.

Thank you melissajames, but as a German I have to say that concerning the Nazi-crimes and murders there can only one view: they were evil. Absolutely evil. Evilly planned and evilly conducted. The details are proven and the judgment should be clear.

But - I believe that a lot of Germans are honest when they say they didn't realize what was going on.

To make this more clear - let me write down a purely invented scenario. Please believe me that I don't want to slander anybody! What I write now is just a secenario to give you an idea about what happened then in Germany.

Imagine the American government ordering American soldiers/CIA-agents to torture citizens of Arab states that are in American custody.

Pictures like the infamous Abu Ghiarab-pictures leak to the press. The government pretends innocence. Anybody, especially their own people are not able to grab what is actually going on and believe their government.

Years later another party forms the government and publishes all the information about the former government's involvement and planning of these things, which are considered evil by now.

Just a scenario, please remember. NOw: what do you think: should the average American feel guilty even though he saw the media reports about torture but believed his own government to be incapable of ordering such evil doings?

I think noone can blame "the average" American. No one can blame "the average" German. it's a very compley and personal question of guilt, of believes, of not wanting to get information, of not wanting to believe information, of not be able to believe things.... Well, that's what life is all about.

Let's be thankful that we do have the media to find out the truth (or parts of it) for us and to publish it.

Then the

michelleq 03-11-2006 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
"Royals and the Reich: the Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany."
See Lady Jennifer's post #25 below for more detail.

Thanks again Warren! I can actually read, even though I may not be able to prove it per some of my post!

LOL!!!

crisiñaki 03-11-2006 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo
Where did you find that Prince Aschwin of Lippe-Biesterfield was a hardcore nazi supporter?

Well Aschwin was an officer of the German Army in WWII so he must have agreed with some of Hitler ideals, he had many conversations with his brother and never told him anything or asked for help in case he wanted to deflect Germany and the Nazi Party.

I found some links to that:
http://crossword.telegraph.co.uk/new.../ixportal.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@lis.../msg37352.html

I'm not completely sure I believe that but I want to know your opinions about this articles and stuff

oskana 03-11-2006 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It's possible. I believe that the ordinary Germans were told that the Jews were in Labour camps or were being sent away to be transported to other countries. Very few people knew about them being killed - and those who lived nearby either worked in the camps or were moved out and troops moved in.

In the beggining this was perhaps the case in many areas. but as time went by many, many more knew (but ofcourse they couldnt do anything about it). ordinary germans may not have always known about the murders initially but they knew of the abuse. it was all around and impossible to miss it.

Jo of Palatine 03-12-2006 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskana
In the beggining this was perhaps the case in many areas. but as time went by many, many more knew (but ofcourse they couldnt do anything about it). ordinary germans may not have always known about the murders initially but they knew of the abuse. it was all around and impossible to miss it.

That's a very valuable point you bring up. I asked a lot of germany who had lived then why they calim they didn't realize what was going on when it went more public with time.

It seems the Nazis were very good on playing the "we are we" and "They are not like us"-card. They managed to install a feeling that the jews did not belong and that it was right to install apartheit measures in Germany. They played on the lower emotions of the people and installed a feeling of righteousness and superiority (which is something that Germans tend to as part of their national character, I have to say).

And they installed a system of terror towards the people. They installed a system of control under the citizens, encouraged the telling of tales, punished heavily if someone did not behave as they wanted and worked with terror, fear and the feeling of helplessness. So even if you found out about these crimes, you were to afraid to tell anybody because you had to face sharing the fate of those unhappy people. So you kept quiet and stayed in line.

A lot of people, especially in the US, believe that the Germans were all guilty and hard-hearted when they didn't seem to react to the truth that was shown to them. But now that more than 60 years are gone by, it seems that they were just too shocked in the beginning. We have had our debate about the guilt and as one result we did not join in the war against terror because we don't ever want to see German soldiers be actively engaged in a war not forced upon us and on our own soil as a defense war.

Iluvbertie 03-12-2006 08:48 AM

Anti-Semitism was, and still is, a feeling in many parts of Europe. I was in Poland and Russia in 2002 and the local guide our tour had kept referring to Poles and Jews, Russians and Jews, Germans and Jews. When I asked why they did this - rather than refer to them all by the same nationality in each country - I received a reply such as - they're Jews they aren't really one of us. I found that extraordinary that after the holocaust those attitudes still existed. The guides were surprised that I would even consider a Jew to be able to be a German/Pole or Russian.

Hitler was able to 'solve' the economic crisis of Germany whereas the leaders in other countries couldn't do so and so he was admired in the early to mid-30s.

It is easy in hindsight to play the blame game but it is different when you are living it. Just look at how many people, in various countries, believed in WMDs and the reason for the Iraq War. Even in countries with freedom of the press many people felt that it was a just war when it began and there are still quite a few people in those countries that still do. It would have been so much easier in the 1930s with limited newsreels, no internet and state control of information to really limit what people knew.

melissajames 03-12-2006 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrissy57
Anti-Semitism was, and still is, a feeling in many parts of Europe. I was in Poland and Russia in 2002 and the local guide our tour had kept referring to Poles and Jews, Russians and Jews, Germans and Jews. When I asked why they did this - rather than refer to them all by the same nationality in each country - I received a reply such as - they're Jews they aren't really one of us. I found that extraordinary that after the holocaust those attitudes still existed. The guides were surprised that I would even consider a Jew to be able to be a German/Pole or Russian.

That is really really sad. :mad:
Imo racism is the most meaningless prejudice in the world.

BeatrixFan 03-12-2006 11:04 AM

It isn't racism, it's anti-semitism which isn't the same thing. The simple fact is that people will always dislike someone else. Whether it's the poor hating the rich, the Scottish hating the English, the blacks hating the whites, the muslims hating the jews, the communists hating the capitalists or the monarchists hating the republicans - hate will always be there for another group. Now what you decide as a human being to do about that hate is very much dependant on your morality.

Adolf Hitler hated the jews because he saw them as having everything whilse Aryan Germans had nothing. It's the same as the bolsheviks hating the Romanovs. Now what happens is you can say, 'Well, that's life' and get on with it. Or you can say in private, "I hate those people" but do nothing in public. Or you can do what both parties did and say, "We hate those people and we are determined to get rid of them".

Everyone wants to see progress in any regime. Hitler showed the German people falling unemployment rates - he promised work and bread and he delivered it. Now that meant in part, taking it away from jews and giving it to Aryan Germans - but what people saw was progress. They saw progress and so they kept supporting National Socialism because it provided the answers to their problems.

Alot of Germans were also bitter about their defeat in the First World War. If you see Albert Speer's plans for Germany after the War, they are truly amazing. If Hitler had have won the war (which he could easily have done), Berlin would have been the most amazing city in the world as we know it. It would spur anyone on - from the lap dog to the master.

It is very easy to now say, "I wouldn't have agreed, I would have protested" but the truth is - you wouldn't. 1) You wouldn't see a problem and 2) You wouldn't be allowed to and I hope that this book will show those things as a possible explanation as to why so many Royals supported Hitler.

melissajames 03-12-2006 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It isn't racism, it's anti-semitism which isn't the same thing.

I am not sure if they are different.

I agree with what you've said. It was situational together with Hilter's gift of manipulation. And you are spot on about people will always dislike another group of people, to me its part of human nature and does not happen exclusively to a particular race or nationality.

I like your posts, you are honest without being irrational. :)
I am an ethic minority living in the UK, and when I hear about xenophobic or racist ideas, its always weird and illogical excuses which people come up with. It is very rare that someone can actually talk about these things so openly without calling people names, shouting abuse and being angry.

BeatrixFan 03-12-2006 11:34 AM

Well this is a post for another topic, but that's the problem IMO. You say that you're an ethnic minority living in the UK. You don't say that you're British. And that is where alot of hatred begins. In my view, the old phrase, "When in Rome" applies always. For example, if I moved to Denmark, I would learn Danish, I would take Danish citizenship, I would try to fit in and I would describe myself as Danish.

But if you make yourself a minority, you are seen as a minority and then racism is almost encouraged because you create, albeit unintentionally, a divide. You say, "We are this and you are that" rather than saying, "We live here and I am British" or Danish, or Dutch or whatever it might be. And that's what happened in Germany - the Jews seperated from the main population and instead of saying, "We are German" said, "We are Jews" and so the rift is already open.

Then you get people, like Hitler, who play on that and because people see that divide, it makes sense. They follow and you end up with genocide and war - we see it in Russia, in Nazi Germany and in Serbia. The problem for Royalty comes when they are supposed to represent the people. If the people are 100% behind Nazism, should (for example) the Queen don a swastika armband, a party badge and make speeches against Jews? Surely she'd only be representing her people and how they think?

(I'm glad you like my posts - I don't mean offence by anything I write but I try to tell it as I see it).

melissajames 03-12-2006 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
Well this is a post for another topic, but that's the problem IMO. You say that you're an ethnic minority living in the UK. You don't say that you're British. And that is where alot of hatred begins. In my view, the old phrase, "When in Rome" applies always. For example, if I moved to Denmark, I would learn Danish, I would take Danish citizenship, I would try to fit in and I would describe myself as Danish.

But if you make yourself a minority, you are seen as a minority and then racism is almost encouraged because you create, albeit unintentionally, a divide. You say, "We are this and you are that" rather than saying, "We live here and I am British" or Danish, or Dutch or whatever it might be. And that's what happened in Germany - the Jews seperated from the main population and instead of saying, "We are German" said, "We are Jews" and so the rift is already open.

I am British and I am not afraid to say it. But what I find is that people start asking me "where are you from" just because I am not white. And they are not asking whether I am from London, or Manchester or whatever, but what they are really asking is - my ethinicity. So some British caucasians do make the distinction pretty much automatically, before I can even open my mouth! :D

I can totally see the problem you are describing, but I think its not just white or the people who are not white that needs to change their approach - both need to change.

Skydragon 03-12-2006 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
It isn't racism, it's anti-semitism which isn't the same thing. Adolf Hitler hated the jews because he saw them as having everything whilse Aryan Germans had nothing. It's the same as the bolsheviks hating the Romanovs.

A friend was telling me that her mother was punished for dating a non jewish boy before the nazi's took over, so anti whatever happens on both sides it would seem.
Quote:

I hope that this book will show those things as a possible explanation as to why so many Royals supported Hitler.
Lets hope so but, there will always be those willing to read more into what they did or didn't do!

melissajames 03-12-2006 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
For example, if I moved to Denmark, I would learn Danish, I would take Danish citizenship, I would try to fit in and I would describe myself as Danish.

Hope you don't mind me asking :), but if you move to China, Japan, India, Congo... would you describe yourself Chinese, Japanese, Indian and African?

I think its not as hard for a person to move to another country similar to the one that is associated with their background or ethinicity compared to say a caucasian who moved to Japan to call themselves Japanese/Chinese/Indian etc.

oskana 03-12-2006 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissajames
I am British and I am not afraid to say it. But what I find is that people start asking me "where are you from" just because I am not white. And they are not asking whether I am from London, or Manchester or whatever, but what they are really asking is - my ethinicity. So some British caucasians do make the distinction pretty much automatically, before I can even open my mouth! :D

I can totally see the problem you are describing, but I think its not just white or the people who are not white that needs to change their approach - both need to change.

agreed exactly. and led me just add that there is a difference between ethnicity and nationality. as human nature we automatically see differences wether we like it or not. its easy to call yourself an ethnic minority bec well thats what u are and thats what others see u as like it or not. if that wasnt the case we would not have terms like hispanic/latin american, african american, and chinese american. we would otherwise all be plain American. so yes both side needs to change their approach.

BeatrixFan 03-12-2006 01:47 PM

Quote:

if you move to China, Japan, India, Congo... would you describe yourself Chinese, Japanese, Indian and African?
I would try to fit in as best I could. What I wouldn't do, which is what alot of immigrants to Britain do, is to say, "I'm an Indian living in Britain and I want Indian shops and Indian schools etc etc". If you want that, go to India. This is Britain where we have British shops, British schools etc. But you have to have a firm Government saying that and unfortunately, we don't have that.

Quote:

its easy to call yourself an ethnic minority bec well thats what u are and thats what others see u as like it or not.
I think you miss my point. IMO, there isn't a need to call yourself a black American or a black Briton. In my mind you are British or you are American or you are Danish etc etc. To use terms like British Jew, British Muslim etc, you create divides that needn't be there and then criticise when you're treated differently for being from a minority. The key is for the minority to fit in with the majority and for the majority to make that easier for the minority to do.

melissajames 03-12-2006 02:12 PM

Quote:

I would try to fit in as best I could. What I wouldn't do, which is what alot of immigrants to Britain do, is to say, "I'm an Indian living in Britain and I want Indian shops and Indian schools etc etc". If you want that, go to India. This is Britain where we have British shops, British schools etc. But you have to have a firm Government saying that and unfortunately, we don't have that.
I agree with the idea. I think its not only important from the integration point of view, but I think people might enjoy the experience and find it much more interesting if they make more effort to adapt to the customs and the way of life to the country which they have moved to.

Quote:

The key is for the minority to fit in with the majority and for the majority to make that easier for the minority to do.
That's a valid point, its a two way street. Minority need to make real effort to integrate into society but the majority also need to provide opportunities and support for them to do this.

oskana 03-12-2006 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I would try to fit in as best I could. What I wouldn't do, which is what alot of immigrants to Britain do, is to say, "I'm an Indian living in Britain and I want Indian shops and Indian schools etc etc". If you want that, go to India. This is Britain where we have British shops, British schools etc. But you have to have a firm Government saying that and unfortunately, we don't have that.


I think you miss my point. IMO, there isn't a need to call yourself a black American or a black Briton. In my mind you are British or you are American or you are Danish etc etc. To use terms like British Jew, British Muslim etc, you create divides that needn't be there and then criticise when you're treated differently for being from a minority. The key is for the minority to fit in with the majority and for the majority to make that easier for the minority to do.

thanks for clearing that up but u may have missed my point as well. your right there isnt a "need" to call yourself a black briton or british jew and so forth. but i think u are not realizing that although u may not use that term many many others do. and u seemed to be puting the blame on one side rather than realizing that its both sides that has to change their approach. as i stated its human nature to point out each others differences wether we like it or not. we still live in a racially/ethinc conscious world, like it or not. many minorities are part of the american culture. they do not go out of their way to divide themselves in fact just the opposite. for example i dont "need" to label myself a chinese american but others will do it for me easily. i fit in to american society just fine but i will still be labeld a chinese american. why is it that in college when i took certain exams there are boxes such as white/caucasian, asian, african american and so forth, and i have to check one. i didnt create that box did I. no, the govt and school offcials responsible created these boxes. it would be nice if all i had to do is check american.

Skydragon 03-12-2006 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskana
for example i dont "need" to label myself a chinese american but others will do it for me easily. i fit in to american society just fine but i will still be labeld a chinese american. why is it that in college when i took certain exams there are boxes such as white/caucasian, asian, african american and so forth, and i have to check one. i didnt create that box did I. no, the govt and school offcials responsible created these boxes. it would be nice if all i had to do is check american.

I have to admit that I am puzzled as to why governments do that however, do you not feel a certain amount of pride when saying you are a Chinese American? A lot of people only 'notice' the differences when it is rammed down their throats and I would hope that you are seen as you, regardless of where you come from. :) As with everyone, it is up to us whether we are seen as nice or nasty and that is what most people remember after a meeting, the impression you have left. As you said there are faults from both sides.:)

In any major city, with the amount of tourists, It shouldn't be seen as offensive to ask where you are from, it could be London, New York or anywhere in the world!

I would also add that IMO, as was said earlier, by the time anyone realised (including the majority of British MP's) what the Nazi's were doing, for the Royals and for a lot of people, it was already too late to stop anything.

norwegianne 03-12-2006 03:39 PM

Ahem, we seem to be going off-topic here.

As intrigueing as it is to read the current discussion, it is rather off-topic. Is it possible to return to discussion of the book before mass-deletion of off-topic posts have to be done?

Norwegianne
Royal Librarian ;)

Lady Marmalade 03-12-2006 06:44 PM

So Jennifer, when do you expect to receive the book you found on Amazon in regards to the Princess von Hesses, and their ties to the Third Reich?

HRH Kerry 03-12-2006 07:40 PM

I ordered from Amazon. I don't know when I'll receive the book since my order totaled over $25.00 and I took advantage of the free shipping.

Anyhoo...Hitler brainwashed Germany since he is legend as being a suave and charismatic speaker. Germany was a different Germany since its economic situation had improved under his motivating chatter and regime. He appealed to people and told them what they wanted to hear and therefore brainwashed them. He knew how to sell himself to the masses. Its not surprising that some royals got caught up in the mess. He rallied Germany against the Jews with more or less we have to blame someone for our rotten luck in life. Hitler used propaganda like no one has ever before.
It was a little too late when most realized what they had on their hands and there was no going back since they would be considered enemies of the state and face extermination.

ChevalieurduCiel 03-13-2006 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry
I ordered from Amazon. I don't know when I'll receive the book since my order totaled over $25.00 and I took advantage of the free shipping.

Anyhoo...Hitler brainwashed Germany since he is legend as being a suave and charismatic speaker. Germany was a different Germany since its economic situation had improved under his motivating chatter and regime. He appealed to people and told them what they wanted to hear and therefore brainwashed them. He knew how to sell himself to the masses. Its not surprising that some royals got caught up in the mess. He rallied Germany against the Jews with more or less we have to blame someone for our rotten luck in life. Hitler used propaganda like no one has ever before.
It was a little too late when most realized what they had on their hands and there was no going back since they would be considered enemies of the state and face extermination.

Hem,When your country is calling you,whoeverer you are.... a King a Prince or a Peasant you go!!Unquestionably!You do your best in peace or war!If you don't you are a trator!

HRH Kerry 03-13-2006 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChevalieurduCiel
Hem,When your country is calling you,whoeverer you are.... a King a Prince or a Peasant you go!!Unquestionably!You do your best in peace or war!If you don't you are a trator!

True. A traitor that will face the same fate as those who where being exterminated.

Princejohnny25 03-13-2006 09:23 PM

This sounds like a very intresting thread.

Elspeth 03-14-2006 01:57 AM

The thread is going off topic again. It's supposed to be a discussion of the book. If the participants can't keep off the topic of politics, we'll close the thread.

Elspeth

Royal Forums administrator

Lillia 03-14-2006 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissajames
I agree with Beatrixfan, from what I know of Hitler that he was a man with the gift to inspire and draw people to believe him. He provided a vision and inspired people who were in absolute desperation because of the aftermath of WW1.

But I want to emphasis that he was a man who used his gift and talent to evil evil means, so awful that I wonder if anyone could have had enough courage to stand up to him even if they knew exactly what was going on. I identify zero with the propaganda ideals but I have to admit, this man was a genius when it came to manipulating people.

I can't make up my mind yet to what extent the royals were to blame and how big a part they played. But history belong to the victors and I am not sure whether there is ever any unbiased views as such.

This is interesting to know. I think when people are desperate (and fear is the core of desperation, imo) they are especially vulnerable. But again, I have to think that while the general population may not have fully understood what exactly what was going on, I do also wonder how much history may be 're-written' which sometimes happens when these types of books come out.

What I mean is, how honest and objective will this book be, especially if the publisher is actually trying not to offend royal sensibilities?

melissajames 03-14-2006 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Kong
I've read the book and I can tell you it's not as 'historical' as the title may suggest.

Martin, would you be kind enough to share with us what you think of the book and what you found most interesting about it. I would really like to know what the readers think of it. Thank you :)

ChevalieurduCiel 03-14-2006 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alejandro_sk
When Hitler ordered Danish Jews to wear the yellow star, the Danish Royal family wore it too and asked their people to do so too, so the Nazi (not German) troops could not tell who was who. Tha Danish Royal family was brave enough to defy Hitler. Why couldn't other royal houses do the same? I mean, it was possible!Alex

Some, Royal families,fought against Fasism and Nazism escaped the last moment to Middle East.Other collaborated with Nazis,other lost thrones because of them!

Lillia 03-14-2006 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissajames
Martin, would you be kind enough to share with us what you think of the book and what you found most interesting about it. I would really like to know what the readers think of it. Thank you :)

Yes, I would be interested in reading some commentary about this book too:)

HRH Kerry 03-14-2006 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChevalieurduCiel
Dear Kerry,as I've said,"when you are called BY YOUR COUNTRY,not by a political party!"Again,if Nazis, are the totaletarian coverment and Germany calls you,you HAVE TO GO and do, what they tell you to do!You ,as citizen,have no choice!! From the other hand,Nazis have the problem of victory or Loss!!That is why by the end of WWII none of the recruiting soldiers was punished,only members of the party(Various Ranks)went on trial.Not even jews said anything about German people!!

Okay. I see that I misunderstood what you were saying. Sorry.:o I understand from history that a lot wasn't said or "reported" and fear had to be the motivating factor behind that.

Have you read the book yet? I've ordered mine and will definitely express my views on it once I read it.

redfox6 03-14-2006 09:31 PM

I have never posted before, but realize that there is a great lack in the present education of young people as to the real evil of the Third Reich. Many royals jumped on the bandwagon fully aware of the evil nature of the Third Reich. The "we knew nothing" group is nonsense. When the Nuremberg Laws were posted, denying Jews everything including citizenship, what did they think. They didn't care. Being anti-semitic in royal circles was the business of the day. It was also the business of the day for the general German citizen. Main Kampf outlined everything. Kristallnact certainly was a prelude for things to come and very violent. German troops wrote letters that have been printed to their families describing the massacres of Jews in Poland and Russia. Putting Jewish children and women in "labor camps" was okay? DACHAU, RAVENBRUCK, BUCHENWALD, were on German soil. What did they think was happening there. Many German aristocrats found Hitler repugnant from the beginning and worked against him for many years. But there are too many who found this acceptable, until after when it made them pariahs.

Elspeth 03-14-2006 09:34 PM

Welcome to the forum, redfox6! Have you read the book?

redfox6 03-14-2006 09:45 PM

No, have read hundreds of Third Reich books and would love to read this, too.

alejandro_sk 03-15-2006 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChevalieurduCiel
Some, Royal families,fought against Fasism and Nazism escaped the last moment to Middle East.Other collaborated with Nazis,other lost thrones because of them!

Yes, that's true. I have not read that book but I know that King Leopold III of Belgium almost lost his throne during that time. What I said about the Royal Danish house is also from another book. There was a bit of everything during that time and I'm afraid we'll never get to know the whole truth.
Alejandro

King Kong 03-15-2006 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillia
Yes, I would be interested in reading some commentary about this book too:)

Hi melissajames and Lillia!
I didn't find this book fascinating, to tell you the truth. There are no historical 'revelations' as the jacket promises. There is no gossip either. :o What you find is, in my opinion, a tidy, uncompromising book that describes the history of a Royal family (in a way).
I very much doubt some of the accussations made to princes Philipp and Christoph von Hessen-Kassel. Some of Hitler's men were prominent people in German society on their own and didn't need any help to be accepted. (Foreign minister von Ribbentrop was a well-known member of German 'top' society.) And even if the authors claim to have had access to royal records, much of what took place in that time will remain a mystery. Both sides (Axis and Allies) destroyed many, many documents in order to lend more credibility to their stances.
So, as a history book, it is forgettable. As a book about Royals, it is not very interesting and, personally, I would take many statements issued there with a pinch of salt. :rolleyes:
I would like to hear some other opinions as well, please. :)
Cheers!
Martin

melissajames 03-15-2006 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Kong
Hi melissajames and Lillia!
I didn't find this book fascinating, to tell you the truth. There are no historical 'revelations' as the jacket promises. There is no gossip either. :o What you find is, in my opinion, a tidy, uncompromising book that describes the history of a Royal family (in a way).
I very much doubt some of the accussations made to princes Philipp and Christoph von Hessen-Kassel. Some of Hitler's men were prominent people in German society on their own and didn't need any help to be accepted. (Foreign minister von Ribbentrop was a well-known member of German 'top' society.) And even if the authors claim to have had access to royal records, much of what took place in that time will remain a mystery. Both sides (Axis and Allies) destroyed many, many documents in order to lend more credibility to their stances.
So, as a history book, it is forgettable. As a book about Royals, it is not very interesting and, personally, I would take many statements issued there with a pinch of salt. :rolleyes:
I would like to hear some other opinions as well, please. :)
Cheers!
Martin

Thank you Martin. I really appreicate your thoughts. In that case I will probably try and borrow this book from friends instead of spending money on a new copy. :D

Cheers! :)

melissajames 03-15-2006 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redfox6
I have never posted before, but realize that there is a great lack in the present education of young people as to the real evil of the Third Reich. Many royals jumped on the bandwagon fully aware of the evil nature of the Third Reich. The "we knew nothing" group is nonsense. When the Nuremberg Laws were posted, denying Jews everything including citizenship, what did they think. They didn't care. Being anti-semitic in royal circles was the business of the day. It was also the business of the day for the general German citizen. Main Kampf outlined everything. Kristallnact certainly was a prelude for things to come and very violent. German troops wrote letters that have been printed to their families describing the massacres of Jews in Poland and Russia. Putting Jewish children and women in "labor camps" was okay? DACHAU, RAVENBRUCK, BUCHENWALD, were on German soil. What did they think was happening there. Many German aristocrats found Hitler repugnant from the beginning and worked against him for many years. But there are too many who found this acceptable, until after when it made them pariahs.

Welcome Redfox :)

That is what I have been told by my history teacher at school a few years ago. I think it will always be a matter of debate to what extent were the royals responsible and how big a part they played. I think some royals were much more involved than others. Many thanks for your input. :p

Lillia 03-15-2006 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redfox6
No, have read hundreds of Third Reich books and would love to read this, too.

I'm very glad to have your opinion, I did wonder how much 'selective amnesia' would be used on the issue of actually holding certain royals accountable for their involvement. Like the picture of one such royal, shown with a member of the party, said to be giving them money, said to have interacted with them and moved in those circles, said to have had relatives and friends who were supporters, but at the same time it is said '' don't believe your lying eyes, we can't prove he actually sympathized with that party". I also think some people, royal and otherwise, sympathized until they figured out things were not going to play out as they bet (while at the same time they let others did the actual 'dirty work' and ignored it). I have no doubt that some people probably even switched sides after it became apparent that the party was going to lose.

I agree, it is totally reasonable to expect that a re-visionist history would have taken place given the circumstances.

just my opinion.

ysbel 03-15-2006 09:10 PM

People believe what they want to believe but that's not just confirmed to Germans under the Nazis.

Over the years its been written just how utterly banal and commonplace some of the Nazis were. Recently a German researched his grandfather who was a Nazi and said he was struck by how nondescript and how normal he appeared. He was accused of trying to whitewash his grandfather which was not the case, he didn't deny the atrocities.

You could say he was revising the story of his grandfather to reconcile himself with the fact that his grandfather was a murderer but you could also say his detractors were also grappling with an uncomfortable truth.

If there was nothing special about the Nazis, the rest of the world could not say with assurance that the atrocities of the Third Reich couldn't happen here, couldn't happen with us. And that is a far more uncomfortable truth.

So who's doing the revising? I don't know, I think everybody is to some extent because the truth and the horror of it is so shocking.

Lillia 03-15-2006 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ysbel
People believe what they want to believe but that's not just confirmed to Germans under the Nazis.

Over the years its been written just how utterly banal and commonplace some of the Nazis were. Recently a German researched his grandfather who was a Nazi and said he was struck by how nondescript and how normal he appeared. He was accused of trying to whitewash his grandfather which was not the case, he didn't deny the atrocities.

You could say he was revising the story of his grandfather to reconcile himself with the fact that his grandfather was a murderer but you could also say his detractors were also grappling with an uncomfortable truth.

If there was nothing special about the Nazis, the rest of the world could not say with assurance that the atrocities of the Third Reich couldn't happen here, couldn't happen with us. And that is a far more uncomfortable truth.

So who's doing the revising? I don't know, I think everybody is to some extent because the truth and the horror of it is so shocking.

This is a very good point too!

Sometimes it is very difficult to come to grip with certain truths, especially when they are hideous, and may apply to loved ones, or 'beloved' public figures. That does not excuse it, but it is true that people do sit in denial about certain things because the reality is very ugly. That's why it is probably so easy, in hindsight, to demonize some of the main people in the Nazi party, because everybody else, wants to think that the bad guy is actually someone else and someone that would look evil, rather than think that it would ever be the sweet caring grandparents, or loving neighbors, or nice schoolteacher, or grocer down the road.

Again, that does not mean to excuse anything. But I do understand your point!

King Kong 03-16-2006 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by melissajames
Thank you Martin. I really appreicate your thoughts. In that case I will probably try and borrow this book from friends instead of spending money on a new copy. :D

Cheers! :)

You're welcome, melissajames!
I think yours is a wise decision. Then, once you've read the book, you can order it. And when you read it, please let me know what you think of it. It's a pleasure to be able to share opinions with other members. :)
Cheers!
Martin

norwegianne 03-17-2006 12:55 PM

I've deleted a lot of posts from this thread, for being off-topic, and moved several to a separate thread regarding stories about Christian X of Denmark.

This thread is about discussion of the BOOK "The Royals and the Third Reich." As mentioned earlier, there is a thread in the Royal Chit Chat part of TRF, that is about what monarchs did during WWII, if one wishes to discuss that.

If anyone has complaints, or comments on the decisions of the moderators, please do so via the PM system.

If the thread cannot stay on topic or the posters can't abide by TRF's rules here, which would be a shame, then the thread will be closed.

Norwegianne
TRF Moderator

Lady Bluffton 03-17-2006 08:56 PM

Does anyone know if this book covers the activities and sympathies of the Duke of Windsor?

Any truth to speculation that his abdication was also due to his Nazi sympathies?

King Kong 03-20-2006 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Bluffton
Does anyone know if this book covers the activities and sympathies of the Duke of Windsor?

Any truth to speculation that his abdication was also due to his Nazi sympathies?

Hi milady! :)
As far as I recall the book does not mention the Duke of Windsor.
As to speculations about his abdication, well, there are many ;) (though not in this book) but which would be the correct thread to talk about that? :confused: :rolleyes:
Cheers! :)
Martin
PS. Well Lady Bluffton, if you want to discuss the reasons for the Duke's abdication, I'll meet you there, at the thread Warren pointed out.

Warren 03-20-2006 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Kong
As far as I recall the book does not mention the Duke of Windsor.
As to speculations about his abdication, well, there are many...but which would be the correct thread to talk about that? :confused:

How about this one: Duke and Duchess of Windsor thread.

King Kong 03-20-2006 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren

Thank you so much!
Where did you find it? :confused: It must have been quiet for some time because I never saw it! :eek:
Cheers!:)
Martin

Elspeth 03-20-2006 02:59 AM

Warren's a moderator at the British forum. Knowing where to find obscure threads is part of the skill set!

Warren 03-20-2006 03:09 AM

Finding old threads
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by King Kong
Thank you so much!
Where did you find it? :confused: It must have been quiet for some time because I never saw it! :eek: Cheers!:) Martin

On the first page of every Forum is a Threads in Forum listing. This is the table of contents where many topics lie dormant, waiting to be brought to life every so often.
As an example, here is page 1 (of 15) from the British Forums Threads in Forum list.

HRH Kerry 03-20-2006 12:28 PM

I got the book from Amazon.com but haven't even opened up the box yet. I've been so busy going to college basketball games. In the States its referred to as March Madness!

Anyhoo...I'm going to my last game tonight and plan to open up my box this weekend.

Fashionista100 03-20-2006 12:29 PM

There is another book about a British Family and the Third Reich and a personal relationship with Hitler. All the five daughters were involved with socialism or communism. They were part of the upper class and I believe the mother was a lady. It's been so long since I read the book. I wish I could remember the name. Maybe someone else knows it. The reason I recommend it in this thread is many of you have discussed support of Nazi's and why and how. This book spends much time covering why the sisters believed the Nazi's were doing good and some of the "ideals" they had and how some were so easily sucked into that sphere. It did say in the book that in Britian in the early days of the Nazi party a lot of people supported them. Thinking they were going to do good for the masses. Then things changed and people tried to distance themselves very quickly. I will try and find the name of the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. I think if you like this topic it might be a good primer on why people believed or choose to believe what they did.

Fashionista100 03-20-2006 12:38 PM

Okay, found it. The family it the Mitford family. The book was called "The Sisters: The saga of the Mitford family" by Lovell. I will warn you the first 100 pages are a bit of a bore as they give the background on the family. But once the girls come of age it starts to pick up. The climatic parts are about them and the third reich, then the book picks up to follow their lives since. It's the kind of book you read and think after your done these young women were so stupid they wasted their promising lives. But I guess that is the message of the book too. These women had everything and just threw it all away. Interesting book b/c it details an intimate relationship w/ the third reich and Hitler himself. The authors talked with many people, including family and looked at correspondence etc. Worth a read if you are trying to understand the people of the time. It may help explain why some "royals" and others were so supportive of what we know was evil. It won't justify but it will explain.

Warren 03-21-2006 04:03 AM

odd Duchess out
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fashionista100
There is another book about a British Family and the Third Reich and a personal relationship with Hitler. All the five daughters were involved with socialism or communism.

Not all the Mitford daughters; one became the Duchess of Devonshire!

susan alicia 03-21-2006 04:42 AM

Nancy Mitford did not have any extreem views as far as I know and think the "socialist" sister was actually a communist
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...232396-1290846

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
Not all the Mitford daughters; one became the Duchess of Devonshire!


alejandro_sk 03-22-2006 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
"Royals and the Reich: the Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany."

Hello everybody!
Sorry to come back to this topic but could someone who has read the book tell me more about who these two princes were? (BTW, Martin's away so he couldn't tell me :( )
The only Prince Phillipp von Hessen-Cassel I could find was born in the 16thC!!! :cool:
Thank you!
Alejandro

Warren 03-22-2006 06:05 AM

Two Princes of Hesse
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alejandro_sk
Hello everybody!
Sorry to come back to this topic but could someone tell me more about who these two princes were? The only Prince Phillipp von Hessen-Cassel I could find was born in the 16thC!!!

Princes Philipp and Christoph of Hesse were sons of Friedrich Karl, the Landgrave of Hesse (-Cassel) who married a daughter of Queen Victoria's daughter Vicky (Empress Frederick).

• Christoph (1901- killed in action 1943) was married to Princess Sophie of Greece, a sister of the current Duke of Edinburgh.

• Philipp (1896-1980) became Landgrave of Hesse and Head of All the House of Hesse. He was married to Princess Mafalda, a daughter of King Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy.

Of the two Princes, Albert Speer only mentions Philipp in his book 'Inside the Third Reich': "He was one of the few followers whom Hitler always treated with deference and respect. Philipp had often been useful to him, and especially in the early years of the Third Reich had arranged contacts with the heads of Italian Fascism. In addition he had helped Hitler purchase valuable art works [in Italy]."

In 1943 Prince Philipp was invited to Hitler's Headquarters where he was placed under house arrest, and then he and Princess Mafalda were taken to Buchenwald (where she died in 1944). Speer suggests Philipp was arrested in revenge for the fall of Mussolini, as an example to his inner circle that no-one was "safe", and because Hitler suspected Philipp was leaking information to the Italians.

Skydragon 03-22-2006 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susan alicia
Nancy Mitford did not have any extreem views as far as I know and think the "socialist" sister was actually a communist
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...232396-1290846

Diana Mitford, married the leader of the British Union of Fascists, Oswald Mosley.
There seems to be very little mention of Pamela's political 'bent'.
Unity Mitfordwent to Nazi Germany and idolized Adolf Hitler, she attempted suicide at the start of the war.
Jessica Mitford was an Anti-Fascist activist.
Deborah was the youngest Mitford girl and she married Andrew Cavendish, who became the Duke of Devonshire.
It was reported that Nancy actually reported Diana to the authorities.

susan alicia 03-22-2006 11:04 AM

Jessica, a vocal Communist, eloped with a notorious cousin who was also a nephew of Winston Churchill;

(from amazon.com)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...lance&n=283155

this is a great serie, shows haow nancy mitford modeled the characters in the radlett family on her own
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0278548/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skydragon
Diana Mitford, married the leader of the British Union of Fascists, Oswald Mosley.
There seems to be very little mention of Pamela's political 'bent'.
Unity Mitfordwent to Nazi Germany and idolized Adolf Hitler, she attempted suicide at the start of the war.
Jessica Mitford was an Anti-Fascist activist.
Deborah was the youngest Mitford girl and she married Andrew Cavendish, who became the Duke of Devonshire.
It was reported that Nancy actually reported Diana to the authorities.


Skydragon 03-22-2006 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susan alicia
Jessica, a vocal Communist, eloped with a notorious cousin who was also a nephew of Winston Churchill;

(from amazon.com)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...lance&n=283155

this is a great series, shows how nancy mitford modeled the characters in the radlett family on her own
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0278548/

Esmond Romilly, was Winston Churchill's 19-year-old "red" nephew who had run away from school to join the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War. Throughout their time together, they shared a passionate commitment to communism. The anti fascists were against the nazi's whilst embracing communism.

They look like good books.:)

sesa 03-22-2006 01:36 PM

Beside the books that have been mentioned here already, do any of you know of any other titles that my be out there to educate myself on this subject. As I mentioned earlier, I have chosen to remain blissfully ignorant all these years, but now this subject intrigues me, mainly because I'm finally seeing a different side of Nazi Germany than those that have been painted and told all these years. Not to mention that I never knew that any of the RF's had anything to do with it. The only thing I really know is about the Jews and how and why they got to the concentration camps and what became of them once they got there.
Any suggestions are welcome, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone by asking. Please keep in mind that I basically know nothing of this subject, so it would really need to be a basic primer so that I can understand the whom what, when, when, where, and why of things before I move on to others that have been mentioned.
Thank you in advance.

susan alicia 03-22-2006 02:55 PM

think this thread shows that the royals were not in a specific way involved with the nazi's, not more so than other levels of society.
do not understand why anyone would be offended by your asking, I suggest you go to a library.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sesa
Beside the books that have been mentioned here already, do any of you know of any other titles that my be out there to educate myself on this subject. As I mentioned earlier, I have chosen to remain blissfully ignorant all these years, but now this subject intrigues me, mainly because I'm finally seeing a different side of Nazi Germany than those that have been painted and told all these years. Not to mention that I never knew that any of the RF's had anything to do with it. The only thing I really know is about the Jews and how and why they got to the concentration camps and what became of them once they got there.
Any suggestions are welcome, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone by asking. Please keep in mind that I basically know nothing of this subject, so it would really need to be a basic primer so that I can understand the whom what, when, when, where, and why of things before I move on to others that have been mentioned.
Thank you in advance.


alejandro_sk 03-28-2006 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warren
Princes Philipp and Christoph of Hesse were sons of Friedrich Karl, the Landgrave of Hesse (-Cassel) who married a daughter of Queen Victoria's daughter Vicky (Empress Frederick).

• Christoph (1901- killed in action 1943) was married to Princess Sophie of Greece, a sister of the current Duke of Edinburgh.

• Philipp (1896-1980) became Landgrave of Hesse and Head of All the House of Hesse. He was married to Princess Mafalda, a daughter of King Vittorio Emanuele III of Italy.

Of the two Princes, Albert Speer only mentions Philipp in his book 'Inside the Third Reich': "He was one of the few followers whom Hitler always treated with deference and respect. Philipp had often been useful to him, and especially in the early years of the Third Reich had arranged contacts with the heads of Italian Fascism. In addition he had helped Hitler purchase valuable art works [in Italy]."

In 1943 Prince Philipp was invited to Hitler's Headquarters where he was placed under house arrest, and then he and Princess Mafalda were taken to Buchenwald (where she died in 1944). Speer suggests Philipp was arrested in revenge for the fall of Mussolini, as an example to his inner circle that no-one was "safe", and because Hitler suspected Philipp was leaking information to the Italians.

Hi Warren!
Thank you for the info. I think there was more in the title than in the book. Maybe the writer was trying to achieve rapid fame. :cool:
Have you read the book? What do you think about it? Is it objective, fair, etc.?
Take care!
Alejandro

alejandro_sk 03-28-2006 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sesa
Beside the books that have been mentioned here already, do any of you know of any other titles that my be out there to educate myself on this subject. As I mentioned earlier, I have chosen to remain blissfully ignorant all these years, but now this subject intrigues me, mainly because I'm finally seeing a different side of Nazi Germany than those that have been painted and told all these years. Not to mention that I never knew that any of the RF's had anything to do with it. The only thing I really know is about the Jews and how and why they got to the concentration camps and what became of them once they got there.
Any suggestions are welcome, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone by asking. Please keep in mind that I basically know nothing of this subject, so it would really need to be a basic primer so that I can understand the whom what, when, when, where, and why of things before I move on to others that have been mentioned.
Thank you in advance.

Hi sesa!
I learnt a lot from plain History books we read at school, for example. They give you a lot of background knowledge which then you can enlarge reading more specific books. I think that when someone promises a "new documented version of 'so and so' and the Reich", for example, there's nothing new in it and as for 'documented', hmmmm ... :rolleyes: And probably the 'so and so' is either unknown or of little or no importance.
One book I recommend to you is Churchill's biography published by his personal doctor, Lord Moran. I found it very interesting.
Take care!
Alejandro

ysbel 03-28-2006 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sesa
Beside the books that have been mentioned here already, do any of you know of any other titles that my be out there to educate myself on this subject. As I mentioned earlier, I have chosen to remain blissfully ignorant all these years, but now this subject intrigues me, mainly because I'm finally seeing a different side of Nazi Germany than those that have been painted and told all these years. Not to mention that I never knew that any of the RF's had anything to do with it. The only thing I really know is about the Jews and how and why they got to the concentration camps and what became of them once they got there.
Any suggestions are welcome, and I'm sorry if I offend anyone by asking. Please keep in mind that I basically know nothing of this subject, so it would really need to be a basic primer so that I can understand the whom what, when, when, where, and why of things before I move on to others that have been mentioned.
Thank you in advance.

I've found the Berlin Diary to be a fascinating book of the day-to-day life of an aristocrat in Nazi Germany. It was written by Missie Vassiltchikova, a Russian who was working in the German Foreign Office and was associated with many who were in the plot to assassinate Hitler. Since this is her actual diary from the time, its a pretty accurate portrayal of at least what one person was thinking during the war.


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