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-   -   "Royals and the Reich: Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany" Jonathan Petropoulos 2006 (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f61/royals-and-the-reich-princes-von-hessen-in-nazi-germany-jonathan-petropoulos-2006-a-9105.html)

Lady Marmalade 03-09-2006 11:35 PM

"Royals and the Reich: Princes von Hessen in Nazi Germany" Jonathan Petropoulos 2006
 
There appears to be a new book coming out later in the spring discussing the details between the royals and Nazi Germany. It will focus primarily on the relationship between the many German royal and aristocratic families and their ties to Hitler and the Reich.

Prince Philip has contributed to it and some of his comments have been printed in the British newspapers in regards to his sisters and brothers-in-law.

Should make for some very interesting reading.

crisiñaki 03-09-2006 11:39 PM

Well since most of the people mentioned in the book is dead it's gonna be one of those that exposes the dirty laundry of the RF in the Third Reich, i would like to hear about Prince Berhard's brother who was a very hard core TR supporter while PB defended the Netherlands, interesting pair of brothers:rolleyes: :cool: :D

Lady Marmalade 03-09-2006 11:46 PM

I agree. It will be interesting to see how it pitted cousin against cousin as most were related but fought on opposite sides.

norwegianne 03-10-2006 02:42 AM

It could be a very interesting book.

Jo of Palatine 03-10-2006 07:26 AM

It quite a difficult topic as there is not only the point pro-Nazi and con-Nazi.
it is true eg that most memebers of formerly reigning houses of Germany were against the Nazis while nobles who had lost their souverainity in 1802-1806 often made themselves a new place as courtiers or officers in the service of the greater states that were formed then. These nobles tended to be loyal to the state, even after the abolishment of monarchies in Germany and Austria in 1918/1919.

I mean - as a German born in 1962 I have often wondered what made the older Germans follow this pack of criminals when they took over the country in 1933. The most convincing reason I could find (you surely believe me when I say that the "reason" "All Germans were criminals" did not appeal to me <grin>) was that Germans were trained over centuries to stay loyal to the "Obrigkeit" ("authorities"), so they simply couldn't believe the government to be a bunch of murdering criminals. It was a time with very limited information after all and the Nazis very soon took control of the media.

But - a lot of Royals held a grundge towards the people who formed the first democracy (Republic of Weimar). They lost their realms, after all. So when democracy made it possible that the up-start Hitler (who was Austrian, BTW) gained control over Germany, they immediately opposed him.

Other nobles stayed loyal to the state till they realized what kind of government was representing their state. Others, especially officers only turned against the government when they realized that the army they belonged to was loosing the war and the Nazis didn't do anything to save them. Others only started doubting after the war when the truth was finally out in the open.

So it surely is a very complex and personal thing why some nobles opposed the Nazis and others supported them. Because it's difficult to say where the real obligations lay for each of them: with their country (and thus the Nazis) true to the long tradition? Or against the country because it had been "hi-jacked" by the Nazis? Against the Nazis because they were not a good government? With the army? Against the war?

It's a very complex thing, I guess, but I'm sure a book in which Prince Philip took a part will tackle the question in an appropriate manner, with in-depth research and scientific merits.

Greetings from Germany, Jo

Lady Marmalade 03-10-2006 11:07 AM

Thank you, Jo, for all your input and information. I hope you will continue to post on here once the book is out and we have had a chance to read it. :)

I am always fascinated by the book discussions and find them the most interesting ones to discuss as it is based on factual knowledge.

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 11:10 AM

I just see this as a chance to bash innocent people who did nothing wrong but follow a political party. The fact that they happen to be Royal doesn't mean a thing.

qui mal y pense 03-10-2006 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I just see this as a chance to bash innocent people who did nothing wrong but follow a political party. The fact that they happen to be Royal doesn't mean a thing.

How do you figure? A political party!
There's an excellent book about Queen Victoria's grandchildren. Many of them married into the various German houses- and enthusiastically supported the Nazis.
This support included donations. Additionally public figures who support political parties are well aware that their support lends credence to the party which makes it easier for others less informed to assume that if "upstanding" royals support them then its a good idea.

You don't see too many royals today pushing particular political agendas.

Marengo 03-10-2006 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crisiñaki
Well since most of the people mentioned in the book is dead it's gonna be one of those that exposes the dirty laundry of the RF in the Third Reich, i would like to hear about Prince Berhard's brother who was a very hard core TR supporter while PB defended the Netherlands, interesting pair of brothers:rolleyes: :cool: :D

Where did you find that Prince Aschwin of Lippe-Biesterfield was a hardcore nazi supporter? I always thought he wasn't that involved in nazism, and I think that if he were, the dutch RF would not have invited him over, not publicly anyway (as they did, he is even the godfather of Prince Constantijn).

Now, there were many other staunch Nazi's among german royalty, though in overall royalty and nazism didn't really go together, even Kaiser Wilhelm II was totally against it.

I believe Phillips brother-in-law, Prince ? of Hesse-Kasssel was a fierce Nazi, as was the Prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont. The latter even escorted Princess Antonia of Bavaria to a concentrationcamp.

I wonder why Mafalda of Hesse-Kassel was arrested and also locked up in a concentrationcamp (where she died from allied bombs) as she was the daughter of the King of Italy, a befriended country of Germany and her husband was a Nazi as well.

Warren 03-10-2006 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeatrixFan
I just see this as a chance to bash innocent people who did nothing wrong but follow a political party. The fact that they happen to be Royal doesn't mean a thing.

The subject encompasses Royal history and is therefore relevant (and interesting) to many members. For every prince who supported the National Socialists there were those who opposed the regime. The names of the supporters are no secret; hopefully the book will attempt to analyse their motivations. If Prince Philip has contributed, chances are the author won't be painting people in black and white terms.

Marengo 03-10-2006 11:42 AM

True Warren, I believe more were against it, or at least spectival then actual supporters.
I believe Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia was involved in the plot to kill Hitler. When the SS came to question him about his role he gave them so much wine that they became drunk/tipsy and he was of the hook :)

Warren 03-10-2006 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo
I believe Phillips brother-in-law, Prince ? of Hesse-Kasssel was a fierce Nazi, as was the Prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont. The latter even escorted Princess Antonia of Bavaria to a concentrationcamp.

I wonder why Mafalda of Hesse-Kassel was arrested and also locked up in a concentrationcamp (where she died from allied bombs) as she was the daughter of the King of Italy, a befriended country of Germany and her husband was a Nazi as well.

Prince Philip's sister Princess Sophie was married to Prince Christoph of Hesse (-Cassel).
According to Albert Speer Princess Mafalda "had been done to death by the SS at Buchenwald in 1944 as part of the Fuehrer's revenge for Victor Emmanuel's desertion to the Allied side." We know that she died in Allied bombing, but the SS didn't put her in a concentration camp for her own safety.

The SS placed troops in Schloss Altshausen to keep watch on the Duke of W&#252;rttemberg; the Prince of Thurn und Taxis had one of his castles bombed in an attempt to 'bring him into line'; Wittelsbach Princes and Princesses were rounded up in Italy and sent back East to the concentration camps. There are plenty of stories to be told, from both sides.

sesa 03-10-2006 11:54 AM

I for one am extremely interested in this subject (now). I'm ashamed to admit, that I have personally chosen to remain ignorant of WWI, WWII & everything that has do with Hitler.
Just last year, I started reading something here on this site that had something to do with the above mentioned. I started digging a little further and found out about how Royalty played a part in the war. Now I am engrossed in the subject and find it extremely interesting on how things played out.
So please, Jo, and anyone else who can enlighten me more on the subject, please continue to post here. I find your knowledged and opinions amazing and interesting. And please, if you find out the name and release date of the book, please post it here! I may even go and buy it !!!!:)

Skydragon 03-10-2006 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo
I wonder why Mafalda of Hesse-Kassel was arrested and also locked up in a concentrationcamp (where she died from allied bombs) as she was the daughter of the King of Italy, a befriended country of Germany and her husband was a Nazi as well.

I read that she was injured during the bombing and as a result had to have an arm amputated, she was weak because of the forced labor and lack of food. She died the day after the bombing from a combination of these things.

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 12:33 PM

Quote:

How do you figure? A political party!
Well that's what the National Socialists were. A political party that people followed. It was only once they were in power that it became a way of life and not a political party. People, including Royalty, hardly had a choice whether to join the party or not so what will this book actually achieve other than naming and attempting to shame.

HRH Kerry 03-10-2006 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sesa
I for one am extremely interested in this subject (now). I'm ashamed to admit, that I have personally chosen to remain ignorant of WWI, WWII & everything that has do with Hitler.
Just last year, I started reading something here on this site that had something to do with the above mentioned. I started digging a little further and found out about how Royalty played a part in the war. Now I am engrossed in the subject and find it extremely interesting on how things played out.
So please, Jo, and anyone else who can enlighten me more on the subject, please continue to post here. I find your knowledged and opinions amazing and interesting. And please, if you find out the name and release date of the book, please post it here! I may even go and buy it !!!!:)

I'm here also to learn. Some of these followers were doing what they believed to be the right thing, then you have some that were just evil through and through regardless of being royal. I believe some acted on thoughts of self-preservation and or to gain favor.

Can't wait for the book. Want to see what is said about Kaiser Wilhelm amongst others.

MOLEY 03-10-2006 03:28 PM

It does sound like an intresting subject , but i do hope it isn't a book full of accusations and old news. i saw the picture in the papers this week of phillip at the funeral of princess cecile standing next to gentlemen in nazi uniform and i only glimpsed it as the newspaper belonged to the person next to me on the tube so i couldn't see if it was a good article.

Lady Marmalade 03-10-2006 05:52 PM

We must remember that not all of the various German royal and aristocratic familes supported Hitler. One must realize the immense brainwashing of what was going on at the time in Germany.

I am sure the small number of Royals who truly and enthusiastically supported Hitler and his regime of disgust and venom are VERY small compared to the many stories I have read and heard about others who were whole-heartedly opposed and could watch only in horror as to what was going on all over Germany in their various duchies and properties, cities, and regions.

Many paid a heavy price for standing against him both in secret venues and even publicly.

Many younger royals were even forced to join the Hitler Youth against their will as at the time maybe the only other alternative was death.

What I am trying to say is this is such a precarious subject to write about that we have only heard bits and pieces and scraps and not a good, full dose of the realities.

BeatrixFan 03-10-2006 05:54 PM

I think also we have to remember that National Socialism was a wonderful new theory in Germany. It was brilliant and people followed because it brought the ordinary German success and prosperity. It was only after the war that the holocaust was actually revealed, so people who were in the party, the Pope and Prince Philip's relatives included, would have seen only good in Nazism.

Lady Marmalade 03-10-2006 06:07 PM

I love the flow of ideas on here.

I cannot wait for this book now to see all of our reactions once we have had a chance to read it.

You are alluding to some great points Sam. Prince Philip himself said in published newspapers quotes that the effects of what occured at the BEGINNING under Hitler were not that bad in the sense of trains running on time and the economy expanding.

I AM JUST REPEATING WHAT I HAD FROM VARIOUS BRITISH NEWSPAPERS WEBSITES IN THE PAST WEEK.

IN NO WAY AM I PUTTING WORDS IN HRH PRINCE PHILIP'S MOUTH.

Thank you all.


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