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Melania 02-18-2006 12:42 PM

Princes and Princesses of Greece and Denmark?
 
Can someone tell me whether or not the Greek royal family are truly princes and princesses of Denmark, or are they just styles they enjoy? Do they truly enjoy the titles or do they just get to enjoy the luxury of using the styles? If so, then TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their children), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora, and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal princes and princesses of Denmark. Also, can someone tell me how long these titles can be hereditary (even their Greek titles too, how long can they continue being Greek royals of a country that claims to have no royalty)? Thanks if you can help.

H.M. Margrethe 02-18-2006 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melania
Can someone tell me whether or not the Greek royal family are truly princes and princesses of Denmark, or are they just styles they enjoy? Do they truly enjoy the titles or do they just get to enjoy the luxury of using the styles? If so, then TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their children), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora, and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal princes and princesses of Denmark. Also, can someone tell me how long these titles can be hereditary? Thanks if you can help.

Well Melania when Prince Wilhelm became King Georg 1. of Greece his grandfather King Christian 9. of Denmark decide that King Georg and his descendant would be Princes and princesses of Denmark and Greece.
King Christian 9. knew that ther was problems in the Balkan area and wantet to give his grandchild and his descendant som safety her in Denmark.
I think that the Greek Royal Family truly like the titel because they are getting a closer tie to the Danish Royal Family.
Yes TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their chrildren), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Prince Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal Princes and Princesses of Denmark and Greece.
I don´t know how long the titel can be hereditary in the family,but i think it migte become extinct if the last 3 children are going to be married into an ordinary family.

Melania 02-18-2006 01:30 PM

Thanks for your answer. Also, what would happen if their Greek titles become extinct? Would they still continue to carry on their Danish titles, or would they also become extinct? I am curious to know, when, for example, Crown Prince Pavlos visists Denmark, is he considered as much as a prince as Prince Joachim? Does he have the rights and enjoy all of the same privilages? Would he continue being a Prince of Denmark (even if he doesn't live there, nor speak Danish fluently) and would he continue to pass on the titles of Prince of Denmark to his sons and grandsons without the title of Prince of Greece? Is it sort of like the Hanovers that continue to claim to be Princes of Great Britain and Ireland, even though these are just styles and not titles that they use?

norwegianne 02-18-2006 01:52 PM

The Greek princes and princesses are not in line to the Danish throne, as Anne-Marie renounced her rights to it upon marriage with Constantine, so I wouldn't say that they were considered equal to the Danish princes and princesses in that regard.

H.M. Margrethe 02-18-2006 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norwegianne
The Greek princes and princesses are not in line to the Danish throne, as Anne-Marie renounced her rights to it upon marriage with Constantine, so I wouldn't say that they were considered equal to the Danish princes and princesses in that regard.

I think that the Danish court are finding the Greek Princes and Princesses are equal since the court still think that Konstantin and Anne-Marie still are King and Queen of Greece.

Melania 02-18-2006 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norwegianne
The Greek princes and princesses are not in line to the Danish throne, as Anne-Marie renounced her rights to it upon marriage with Constantine, so I wouldn't say that they were considered equal to the Danish princes and princesses in that regard.


That must be why she is not listed on the official Danish Monarchy website. Her sister is listed, but not her. I always wondered this and wondered why the Greek royal family was not on their website? I guess that was my question all along, why are the Greek royal family not on the website? I wish I could see them on there. I think their family would be so cute (especially Prince Pavlos and his family), and it would bring the family more attention and credibility (in the future, I guess) but they are not. Thanks for answering my question. :)

fromEU 02-18-2006 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melania
That must be why she is not listed on the official Danish Monarchy website. Her sister is listed, but not her. I always wondered this and wondered why the Greek royal family was not on their website? I guess that was my question all along, why are the Greek royal family not on the website? I wish I could see them on there. I think their family would be so cute (especially Prince Pavlos and his family), and it would bring the family more attention and credibility (in the future, I guess) but they are not. Thanks for answering my question. :)

She is on the official Danish Monarchy website. She is just not among the links on the left.
The Royal House - see bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam
HM Queen Anne-Marie - with link to the Greek website on the bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam_ann

eireann 02-18-2006 03:51 PM

What will happen when King Konstantin dies? Will Pavlos become King of Greece???

Mandy 02-18-2006 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eireann
What will happen when King Konstantin dies? Will Pavlos become King of Greece???

There is a discussion thread in the Greek Forum that might answer your question: here

Melania 02-18-2006 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromEU
She is on the official Danish Monarchy website. She is just not among the links on the left.
The Royal House - see bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam
HM Queen Anne-Marie - with link to the Greek website on the bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam_ann


Thank you, I didn't see that. Also, I wonder if the family would be on there if Anne-Marie wasn't the Queen's sister? I wish the Greek family could be more closely linked to the Danish monarchy/ Danish royalty since they carry the titles of Princes and Princesses of Greece and Denmark. It would give us more Danish royals to follow. I like the Danish royal family for some reason. :)

msleiman 02-28-2006 02:34 PM

Greek Royal Family - Prince/Princess of Denmark
 
I was wondering why some if not all of the Greek Royal family carry the title of prince/princess of Denmark. Could someone explain why?

norwegianne 02-28-2006 02:37 PM

King George of Greece was born Prince Vilhelm/William of Denmark. As the Greek throne was viewed to be a "shaky" prospect, his descendants also are Prince/Princess of Denmark in addition to their Greek styles.

auntie 08-21-2007 09:05 AM

I think the titles of Greece and Denmark are honoury titles and not titles with much meaning, as they are not direct line to the throne nor on the Danish civil list etc.

morhange 08-21-2007 10:43 AM

BTW, here's Anne-Marie's profile: Kongehuset - Kongehuset The only link didn't work. I was wondering why it was just linked as 'Ann' when her name is AnnE, not to mention Anne-Marie! But I still wonder why Nikolai's URL is niColai.

Philippe Egalite' 08-31-2007 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H.M. Margrethe (Post 383742)
Well Melania when Prince Wilhelm became King Georg 1. of Greece his grandfather King Christian 9. of Denmark decide that King Georg and his descendant would be Princes and princesses of Denmark and Greece.

King Christian IX was not the grandfather but the father of prince Wilhelm, later king George I of the Hellenes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by H.M. Margrethe (Post 383742)
Yes TRH Prince and Princess Pavlos (and their chrildren), HRH Princess Alexia, HRH Prince Nikolaos, HRH Princess Theodora and HRH Prince Philippos are all royal Princes and Princesses of Denmark and Greece.
I don´t know how long the titel can be hereditary in the family,but i think it migte become extinct if the last 3 children are going to be married into an ordinary family.

As of the time of the Succession Act of 1953, by which succession to the Danish Throne became limited only to descendants of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine, king Constantine and other Greek royal personages, lost their succession rights to the Danish Throne. Further, in Denmark, those personages without rights to the Throne (ie without Rank) are not princes or princesses of (til) Denmark (ie they hold no legally or constitutionally backed title of prince/princess). However, because king Constantine was born a prince of (til) Denmark, since his birth (1940) occurred before the time of the Succession Act of 1953, he has retained (by permission) the constitutionally meaningless title of prince af Danmark.

In addition, Princess Anne-Marie had to resign and did resign her rights to the Throne by virtue of the fact that she was marrying a reigning foreign dynast, in contrast to, and distinction from, Princess Benedikte who retained her rights because she married a non-reigning and non-ruling foreign dynast.

Thus, in a strictly technical sense, king Constantine's children are not princes/princesses either til or af Danmark. However, I would have thought that, since the prince/ss af Danmark title is merely a matter of style and honorific, that is, not requiring legal or constitutional backing, it may be up to The Queen to style them as such, when she so decides, unless her government can legally oppose that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromEU (Post 383820)
She is on the official Danish Monarchy website. She is just not among the links on the left.
The Royal House - see bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam
HM Queen Anne-Marie - with link to the Greek website on the bottom
http://kongehuset.dk/artikel.php?dogtag=k_en_fam_ann

Queen Anne-Marie is not a member of the Royal House of Denmark and is not quoted as such. She is however quoted as a member of the Royal Family (an entirely different issue) and I quote from the Website
"The Royal Family comprises Her Majesty The Queen’s relatives, including Her Majesty Queen Anne-Marie."
In other words, Queen Anne-Marie is a member of the Royal Family as it also applies to Counts/Countesses Rosenborg etc
Indeed, the Website makes the distinction between Royal House (constitutional status- State matter) and Royal Family (no constitutional status- private matter) crystal-clear.

Melania 10-28-2007 11:03 AM

I can't remember where I read it or the exact Danish terms, but I do remember the English translation of an article that I read. In fact, there is not real English transaltion because the terms aren't used in English.

Prince Frederik, his son, his brother, and his nephews are princes TO Denmark. Where as, the Greek royals are princes OF Denmark. If a prince is a prince TO Denmark, then he is in line to inherent the throne of Denmark. However, if a prince is a prince OF Denmark, then it is just a style used, a curtesy title.

If I come across the article that I read again, I will remember and come back and post the source. Maybe someone could help with the source? Thanks

Jo of Palatine 10-28-2007 11:22 AM

AFAIK king Constantine, queen Anne-Marie and their children plus family all have Danish diplomat's passports, thus their relationship to Denmark should be somehow official.

JessRulz 10-29-2007 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melania (Post 685805)
I can't remember where I read it or the exact Danish terms, but I do remember the English translation of an article that I read. In fact, there is not real English transaltion because the terms aren't used in English.

Prince Frederik, his son, his brother, and his nephews are princes TO Denmark. Where as, the Greek royals are princes OF Denmark. If a prince is a prince TO Denmark, then he is in line to inherent the throne of Denmark. However, if a prince is a prince OF Denmark, then it is just a style used, a curtesy title.

If I come across the article that I read again, I will remember and come back and post the source. Maybe someone could help with the source? Thanks

Yes, that is how there are styled on the Danish version of Kongehuset.dk - Princess Isabella and Princess Benedikte are also Princess to Denmark, while Crown Princess Mary is ... of Denmark. Like you said, the to means they are in line for the Danish throne

Philippe Egalite' 11-03-2007 12:08 PM

Clarification
 
As discussed ad nauseam under this post and elsewhere, personages born Princes and Princesses of Denmark and retaining the Constitutional Right in the Line of Succession according to the 1953 Succession Act, are called Princes/Princesses TO (TIL) Denmark.
Prince Hendrik and Princess Mary are Prince/Princess OF (AF) Denmark. These titles have no constitutional backing, are titles by association (i.e. through marriage) and are usually good as long as the association is maintained. For example, the former Princess Alexandra ceased to be a Princess OF (AF) Denmark the moment she married again.

By the Succession Act of 1953, one may be born a prince/princess to Denmark but there is no provision for anyone getting born a prince/princess af Denmark. Therefore, prince/princess af Denmark by birthright does not exist.

When Danish Royal Personages cease to be princes/princesses to Denmark due to unequal marriage (prince Knud's sons, currently Counts Rosenborg) or marriage to a reigning foreign dynast at the time of the marriage (e.g. queen Anne-Marie), they lose the princely title altogether. Indeed, Queen Anne-Marie is neither a princess to nor a princess af Denmark anymore.

In the case of the members of the former royal family of Greece, king Constantine, queen Sofia of Spain, princess Yriny and prince Michael were all born princes/princesses to Denmark by virtue of:
1) their descent from King Christian IX, and
2) their birth having taken place before 1953,
and as such, after the passage of the 1953 Succession Act, limiting the Line of Succession to descendants of Christian X, they retained due to the special circumstances the honorific title prince/princess af Denmark [by the way, prince Michael would have lost his Danish title anyway due to having married unequally].

However, none of the above personages' children was born before 1953. And, since no one (by definition) can be born prince/princess af Denmark, the children of former king Constantine, queen Sofia and prince Michael are not princes/princesses either to or af Denmark.
Correctly so, the children of king Juan Carlos and queen Sofia are called:
Felipe Juan Pablo Alfonso de Todos los Santos de Borbon y Grecia (but never y Danimarca)
Elena María Isabel Dominica de Silos de Borbón y Grecia (but never y Danimarca)
Cristina Federica de Borbón y Grecia (but never y Danimarca)

The children of former king Constantine continue to use the of (af) Denmark which constitutes, at a minimum, an evasion of the Danish Constitution and protocol irregularity.

MargreteI 11-03-2007 01:52 PM

The children of Anne Marie could in theory take the throne of Denmark, because the Succession Act does not exclude anyone of the decrendant og Chr. IX and Alexandrine. Reardless what ever title they hold "to" "of" or nothing at all. Neighter does it say anything about the whole matter. It is short and simple. :smile:
§ 1. The throne is inherited down within king Christian X og Queen Alexandrines decrendant.
§ 2. When a king dies the throne goes to his son or daughter, in such way that son before daughter, if there is more of same gender oldest before youngest. If one of the children dies, that persons children takes the place after the liniar rule and the in § 1 mentioned rules.
§ 3. If a king dies without leaving direct heirs to the throne, the throne goes to his brother or sister, brother before sister. If there are more of same gender or someone have dies the rules in § 2 is to be used.
§ 4. If there are no direct heir to the throne according to § 2 and 3 the throne goes to the nearest sideline amongst the decendant of King Christian X and Queen Alexandrine according to the liniar rule, brother before sister and older before younger as set in § 2 and 3.
§ 5. Only children born in legal marriage can inheritage the throne.
The kings marriage has to have the parliaments aproval.
If one in line to the throne marries without the kings approval that person lose the right to the throne for him/her self and his/her children. .
§ 6. The rules in § 2-5 also applies if the king renounce the throne.
§ 7. This law enters into force on5. juni 1953.
.


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