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-   -   Crown Prince Pavlos: Current and Future Titles (http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f130/crown-prince-pavlos-current-and-future-titles-800.html)

Raia 09-15-2003 11:39 AM

Crown Prince Pavlos: Current and Future Titles
 
i was reading through the Greek royal family topics and was thinking. They dont actually rule Greece so does that mean that Crown Prince Pavlos wont actually become King Pavlos when his father dies or will he?. Whats the point if he does cos he rarely goes to Greece and the country dont actually want the royal family. So what is the point of having a King and Queen of Greece when they dont live there or do anythink (to my knowledge) for there country.

Fireweaver 09-15-2003 12:23 PM

You managed to sum up on side of the debate very well there :)
I don't think he can become "King" Pavlos as they aren't in control of the country. If they really want to, he could become king of the hellenes (although I could be wrong about that or it's highly contraversal. Either way...)
I think he'll stay as Crown Prince, and head of the dynasty. His eldest son will become head (after Pavlos's death) and be head as "prince".

cuervo 09-15-2003 01:01 PM

You never know!!How can ,each of you,guess what is going to happen 1 hour after you read this??Maybe I go out of town,maybe,maybe ,maybe.....How can you guess what will it be tommorow or the day after!????A KING IS ALWAYS A KING.....this is what it always be stable!!!

Etienne,DuchessofBurgundy 09-15-2003 02:39 PM

This is like those detestable "What if..." scenerios...This is purely a 'wait and see' sort of thing. :innocent:

Bianca 09-16-2003 08:49 PM

I agree, You'll never know till it actually happens! :ninja:

USCtrojan 09-18-2003 11:31 PM

this is an interesting debate. i too however believe that pavlos will never become king of greece or the hellenes for that matter. i know that i dont know what can happen in an hour from now, but, i think that the greeks are pretty much sealed. there are however some families and kings who are given back their palaces and homes and land and so on, but, when it comes to being given back their thone? dont thik that will ever happen. there are way too many people in greece who still have hard negative feelings toward constantine and his signing the document to hand power over to the republic or what ever it was. several hate him for it and dont even refer to him as king yet, constantine gluksburg! it would be a miracle if this were to happen.

George 09-20-2003 05:34 AM

Napoleon once remarked "[I] am marrying a womb." He brought up a practical
point.
1. He married Archduchess Marie Louise of Austria (the sacrified once) to produce
a heir. (Prince of Rome).
2. If a consort or wife does not have the talent to be fluent in a language-it is
not the end of the world! relax.
3. The real issue is for the heirs to be fluent in the culture and language-
as they are the imperative aspect of the union.
4. IF the husband loves his consort-that is the icing on the cake. Many marriages
were for dynastic union or practical reasons.
5. It is a good point if the consort can learn a few words, but in the end,
the good deeds and caring for the nation and the people mean more-
"actions speak louder than words" so in the end what good is a language
proficient consort when she makes a nation angry?
6. When the time was ending for King George III-of England-all the princes
and dukes rushed to get married-many to German wives. It was a joke
amongst the British then that at the wedding vows the brides said, "ja",
and from these Deutsch speaking women the race was on to produce the
heir to the throne!

Of course we know who the heir to the winner was-why she is known as
Queen Victoria!

Yes, it is helpful to know the language of the host nation-but not everyone
has the talent or able to pick it up, some small percentage can't!
To me the quality of the lady means more-the character and personality.

George 09-20-2003 05:38 AM

There are some who come down hard on MC on the language deal.
Let's focus where we need to: let's hope the parents make sure their
children are fluent in Greek and the culture !

After all, the consort is just that: a consort, so she is as Napoleon so well
said: the womb. Of course, love is the best part if it exists, but the heirs
MUST BE THE FUTURE AND MUST KNOW THE LANGUAGE. They are vital,
the wife is not.

now, it is not for us to know if ever any members return to the nation of
Greece or anyone attains the throne or not, but let's deal with the present
issue: are the children doing well in the language area?

And others who are being looked at for consort potential-like Mary and
Frederik.....the personality and character mean more than just
wow-so and so mastered such and such a language in 6 months!
Thats great if someone can do it, but that is not the most vital area.
Raise a excellent specimen for the throne and then let that be the
good results!

tricia 10-14-2003 11:09 AM

Unless Greece reinstates the monarchy, Pavlos will never become king. He will only be Crown Prince.

Josefine 11-23-2003 06:19 AM

I think he always will be Crown Prince even after his father dies

George II 11-24-2003 10:15 AM

No prince Pavlos will not became king when his father, King Konstantinos II, died. Konstantinos (or Constantine) already has this title because he was already King before the military coup of 1967. His actual title is "former king of Greece".
Prince Pavlos don't become King after his father's dead, he stays Crown Prince, he is an heir to the throne, so he and his descendants will all be Crown Prince, as long they have rights to the Greek Throne. They will always keep this rights until they abdicated (i don't know the excact word).

USCtrojan 08-24-2004 07:41 PM

So Constantinos-Alexios will one day take his fathers title of Crown Prince? However they could pull the Albanian royal family thingy. Where Luka considers himself king even though he was only crown prince.

saxon 02-03-2005 01:24 AM

'Duke of Sparta' title
 
is the title of the Crown Prince of Greece The Duke of Sparta
someone told me it was, but I have never heard it referred to before

Splodger 02-03-2005 05:57 AM

The title of the Duke of Sparta is reserved as a subsidiary title of the Crown Prince of Greece. It is similar to Crown Prince Philip of Beligum being the Duke of Brabant or Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden being the Duchess of Vastergotland. The title follows after the senior title of Crown Prince. It is NOT however like the British system that has no title of Crown Prince and therefore The Prince of Wales is a senior title attributed to the heir to the throne, otherwise they would simply be The Prince X of the UK....

Thus the title of the current Duke of Sparta is:

Title:
HRH Pavlos The Crown Prince of Greece, The Duke of Sparta, Prince of Greece and Denmark.
Style:
HRH Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece

The reason Pavlos is not often refered to as The Duke of Sparta is beacuse it is a lesser title than that of Crown Prince. It may also be partially due to the fact that Greece had no other nobility apart from the Royal Family and therefore the Duke of Sparta was the ONLY Dukedom in pre-republic Greece.

Future of the Title:
Assuming the current republican regiem continues in Greece, Constantine II will be the last person to have the title of King (or Ex-King for Republicans). Pavlos will more than likley continue to use the title of Crown Prince, however their decendents may wish to assess the titles the family use. The Royal Family of Bavaria now use their lesser title of Duke of Bavaria and the Serbian Royal Family use the style of Crown Prince for the head of the family. The GRF may either continue to use the title of Crown Prince for the head of the family or may wish to use the Duke of Sparta instead... or perhaps after Constantine has passed away, if Pavlos uses Crown Prince he may wish for Constantine-Alexios to use the title Duke of Sparta.

USCtrojan 02-03-2005 11:22 PM

Thank you for the last post. I have always wondered this! Very well explained.

saxon 02-04-2005 12:33 AM

Thanks for that explanation it was very informative and interesting

Splodger 02-04-2005 06:03 AM

thank you - all more than welcome

Royal Fan 12-31-2005 06:33 PM

I will Consider Pavlos King Paul II When the time comes

Philippe Egalite' 08-01-2007 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splodger (Post 171729)
The title of the Duke of Sparta is reserved as a subsidiary title of the Crown Prince of Greece. It is similar to Crown Prince Philip of Beligum being the Duke of Brabant or Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden being the Duchess of Vastergotland. The title follows after the senior title of Crown Prince. It is NOT however like the British system that has no title of Crown Prince and therefore The Prince of Wales is a senior title attributed to the heir to the throne, otherwise they would simply be The Prince X of the UK....

Thus the title of the current Duke of Sparta is:

Title:
HRH Pavlos The Crown Prince of Greece, The Duke of Sparta, Prince of Greece and Denmark.
Style:
HRH Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece

The reason Pavlos is not often refered to as The Duke of Sparta is beacuse it is a lesser title than that of Crown Prince. It may also be partially due to the fact that Greece had no other nobility apart from the Royal Family and therefore the Duke of Sparta was the ONLY Dukedom in pre-republic Greece.

Future of the Title:
Assuming the current republican regiem continues in Greece, Constantine II will be the last person to have the title of King (or Ex-King for Republicans). Pavlos will more than likley continue to use the title of Crown Prince, however their decendents may wish to assess the titles the family use. The Royal Family of Bavaria now use their lesser title of Duke of Bavaria and the Serbian Royal Family use the style of Crown Prince for the head of the family. The GRF may either continue to use the title of Crown Prince for the head of the family or may wish to use the Duke of Sparta instead... or perhaps after Constantine has passed away, if Pavlos uses Crown Prince he may wish for Constantine-Alexios to use the title Duke of Sparta.

Queen Frederika, in defiance of the Constitution, named her son Duke of Sparta but the government never agreed to that for it was both unconstitutional and illegal [the late Aristovoulos Manessis, professor of Constitutional Law, has written in detail about that issue]. The title Duke of Sparta had been illegitimately and unconstitutionally also used by king Constantine's grandfather, king Constantine I.

The Constitution of 1952 disallowed titles of nobility (such as duke, marquess, count etc) and provided for only three subsantive titles, those of the king, the queen (consort) and the diadoch (heir to the throne). Indeed, in Greece, and while the monarchy was in effect, there weren't even titles of princes or princesses but a king's children were recognized as vassilopaides (ie royal children) in a manner and fashion similar to that of Spain, where the only prince or princess is the heir to the throne, while the other siblings are infantes and infantas. King Juan Carlos, of course, has always respected the Law of his Land and applied it down to the iota and this explains his immense popularity.
Sadly, the Greek royals chose differently.

Charlotte1 08-02-2007 05:48 AM

Constantine II did not have the title Duke of Sparta, he has stated so publically when asked directly by a royalty historian. As heir to the throne he was known as the Diadoch.

The Duke of Sparta title was used when referring to Constantine I but only outside of Greece. He was not 'Duke of Sparta' within Greece as the King could not give out titles according to the constitution.

Pavlos does not have the 'Duke of Sparta' as one of his titles, he never did.


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