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btsnyder 11-15-2005 12:11 PM

Royal Dukes, Royal Duchies and Royal Ducal Titles
 
In speaking about the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester and their heirs over the last couple of days, it got me to thinking. Are there any peerages around decended from past royal dukes? I know that current Dukes of Kent and Gloucester are grandchildren of George V, and that no other sons of Edward VII had children. What about the Dukedoms of Connaught and Albany that were held by sons of Queen Victoria? Have they died out?

It's my understanding that these peerages are heriditary, so I would assume that there are some decendants of past monarchs holding Dukedoms out there. Does anyone have any information?

Zonk 11-15-2005 12:26 PM

Listed below is the information from Wikipedia, that I pulled regarding Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught's heir. It appears that the title died with his son.
-----------------------------------
Prince Alastair of Connaught (Alastair Arthur Windsor), (August 9, 1914-April 26, 1943) was a member of the British Royal Family, a great grandson of Queen Victoria. Prince Alastair was denied the title of a British prince and the style His Highness in 1917. Afterwards he held the courtesy title of Earl of MacDuff and later inherited his grandfather's titles of Duke of Connaught and Strathearn.

Early Life

Alastair was born on August 9, 1914 in London. His parents were was Prince Arthur of Connaught, the only son of Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught and Princess Arthur of Connaught (nee Princess Alexandra, Duchess of Fife, the eldest daughter of Princess Louise, Princess Royal). As a great grandchild of the British monarch through the male line, Alastair was styled His Highness Prince Alastair of Connaught.

House of Windsor

Shortly after Alastair was born, World War I broke out, prompting strong anti-German feelings in the United Kingdom. King George V responded to this by changing the name of the Royal House from the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to the House of Windsor and relinquished all Germanic titles from royals who were British citizens.
In Letters Patent dated November 20, 1917, King George V undertook further restructuring of the royal styles and titles by restricting the titles of Prince or Princess and the style of Royal Highness to the children of the sovereign, the children of the sovereign's sons, and the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. It further stated all titles of "the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes."1 At that point, the three year-old became known as Alastair Arthur Windsor, Earl of MacDuff. Although second in line to the dukedom of Connaught and Strathearn as well as earldom of Sussex at the time of his birth, heir of his father who was the heir apparent, he was the heir apparent to his mother's dukedom of Fife. Therefore, he used his mother's secondary peerage as a courtesy title.

Army service

Alastair received his education at Bryanston and at Sandhurst. In January 1935, he received a commission as a second lieutenant in the Royal Scot Greys (2nd Dragoon), the same regiment in which his father served. He was posted to Egypt in 1936 and remained there until his transfer to Canada in 1939. He received a promotion to first lieutenant in July 1939. Alastair served as an aide-de-camp to Earl of Athlone, then the governor-general of Canada. His father, Prince Arthur of Connaught, died on September 12, 1938. Therefore, when his grandfather died on January 16, 1942, he succeeded as 2nd Duke of Connaught and Strathearn and Earl of Sussex.
Alastair died at Government House in Ottawa, where he had been a guest of the Earl of Athlone and Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone. His ashes were interred at Mar Lodge Chapel, Braemar, Aberdeenshire. Upon his death, the dukedom of Connaught and Strathearn became extinct. His first cousin, James Carnegie (September 23, 1929-), succeeded as 3rd Duke of Fife and Earl of MacDuff, upon Princess Alexandra's death on February 26, 1959.

Marengo 11-15-2005 12:40 PM

The house of Saxe-Coburg still are Dukes of Albany, and the House of Hannover Dukes of Dukes of Cumberland. I believe the only dukedoms derived from royals were of illegitemate offspring of Stuart kings, such as the Dukes of Richmond.

Lady Marmalade 11-15-2005 12:53 PM

The Dukedom of Albany has died out and has reverted back to the crown. That is what happens when there are no more male line heirs.

The House of Hanover is not allowed to use the title Duke of Cumberland and Duke of Teviotdale as they were taken away from the current prince's grandfather. He was deprived of his British titles 1919, and abdicted his right to the throne 1918.

From Wikipedia:
The last creation (the form being "Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale") was for Ernest Augustus (later King of Hanover), fifth son of King George III of the United Kingdom. The title was suspended for the third Duke's pro-German activities during World War I. Under the 1917 Titles Deprivation Act, the lineal male heirs of the 3rd Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale have the right to petition the British Crown for the restoration of his peerages. To date, none has done so. The present heir is Prince Ernst August of Hanover (born 26 February 1954), great grandson of the 3rd Duke and current head of the House of Hanover. He is the senior male-line descendant of George III of the United Kingdom.

The other Royal Dukedoms are:

Lancaster - held by the sovereign
Cornwall - the Scottish dukedom automatically bestowed by birth to the eldest son of the sovereign.
York - Given to the second oldest son of the sovereign.
Connaught
Albany
Gloucester - Currently Prince Richard
Kent - Currently Prince Edward (Prince George and Princess Marina's son)
Windsor - Given to the current Queen's uncle, the former Edward VIII, when he abdicated.
Edinburgh - Currently Prince Philip, and he will be given to Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex, when his father passes on.

Mapple 11-15-2005 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marengo
The house of Saxe-Coburg still are Dukes of Albany, and the House of Hannover Dukes of Dukes of Cumberland. ...

Not quite, those two dukedoms were suspended in 1919.

Mapple 11-15-2005 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
The Dukedom of Albany has died out and has reverted back to the crown. That is what happens when there are no more male line heirs.

The House of Hanover is not allowed to use the title Duke of Cumberland and Duke of Teviotdale as they were taken away from the current prince's grandfather. He was deprived of his British titles 1919, and abdicted his right to the throne 1918.

...

There is a male heir to the dukedom of Albany, Hubertus, son of Ernst-Leopold, who in turn was a son of Johann Leopold, whose father was the last Duke of Albany Carl Eduard. In theory he can petition the British Crown for the restoration of the dignities removed in 1919.

And the Dukedom of Cumberland and Teviotdale is a single dukedom. :)

Zonk 11-15-2005 01:05 PM

So based on the info that Lady Marmalade provided, I am going to assume the ffollowing:

1) When the Duke of York dies, his title will pass back to the Crown. Unless special provisions are allowed (which I doubt) for Princess Beatrice to inheirit.
2) When the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent die, and their sons inheirit, and they die without male heirs, they will also revert back to the Crown. The Kent dukedom is unlikely as the present Duke has two sons, of which the elder already has a sons.

Is this correct? So basically, if William and Henry have sons..they can use the following, Albany, Cumberland and Windsor. I assume that Edinburgh will go to Prince Edward (by special proxy of course).

Lady Marmalade 11-15-2005 01:06 PM

Thank you Mapple, for the information. I know about Cumberland and Teviotdale, I just bolded them to show all the Royal Dukedoms from the past 100 years or so. :)

According to the British peerage websites I have researched through, the Albany line has died out.

But thank you for the information.

Lady Marmalade 11-15-2005 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk1189
So based on the info that Lady Marmalade provided, I am going to assume the ffollowing:

1) When the Duke of York dies, his title will pass back to the Crown. Unless special provisions are allowed (which I doubt) for Princess Beatrice to inheirit.
2) When the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent die, and their sons inheirit, and they die without male heirs, they will also revert back to the Crown. The Kent dukedom is unlikely as the present Duke has two sons, of which the elder already has a sons.

Is this correct? So basically, if William and Henry have sons..they can use the following, Albany, Cumberland and Windsor. I assume that Edinburgh will go to Prince Edward (by special proxy of course).


Hi Zonk, :)

1. Yes, when the current Duke of York dies, his title reverts back to the Crown. But, say he dies while Prince Charles is king, Charles could give it to Harry as Harry would be the second son of the reigning monarch.

Each monarch has the right to assign the royal dukedoms to their sons. However, Cornwall (from Scotland) is automatic for the eldest son and York is reserved for the second son.

2. Yes, the current Duke of Gloucester has a son Alexander, Earl of Ulster, who will inherit the title, should Alexander not have any sons, the dukedom reverts back to the Crown.

Yes, the current Duke of Kent has an oldest son, Earl of St. Andrews, he has a son, Baron Downpatrick. This title is not reverting back to the Crown for some time as there are heirs going down to the grandson now.

When William is king and if he has sons, he can bestow upon them any of the other royal dukedoms. These are usually bestowed when a son is married, or just comes of age.

Harry, being the second son, is not allowed to choose a royal dukedom for himself, as only the sovereign has the right to bestow them out.

But, Charles, when he is king, can bestow one to Harry, and since Andrew will more than likely still be alive, it will have be another royal dukedom.

I doubt they will be using Windsor for a LONG TIME, given the taint of it.

Mapple 11-15-2005 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk1189
...

Is this correct? So basically, if William and Henry have sons..they can use the following, Albany, Cumberland and Windsor. I assume that Edinburgh will go to Prince Edward (by special proxy of course).

I don't think so, the dukedoms of Albany and Cumberland are in a state of 'suspended animation', and the Windsor title is associated with Edward VIII.

Among the traditional royal dukedoms the Cambridge and Kendal titles are available. A new grant of the Connaught title is IMO very unlikely.

Mapple 11-15-2005 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Thank you Mapple, for the information. I know about Cumberland and Teviotdale, I just bolded them to show all the Royal Dukedoms from the past 100 years or so. :)

Ah, I see. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
According to the British peerage websites I have researched through, the Albany line has died out.

...

Probably I have made some mistake but, as far as I can see, there is an unbroken line of male descent in the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha family.

Lady Marmalade 11-15-2005 01:22 PM

Hi Mapple,

They probably are a little unclear in some cases, some of these sites. I think the German royals who still have heirs to these titles are still sensitive subjects in Britain to discuss, even today in 2005. ;)

Take care,

Nicole

Mapple 11-15-2005 01:27 PM

Hello Nicole,

We Russians know how to defend ourselves, whether from the Germans or from the British! :-)

But let's not digress, what other royal dukedoms are available for William and Harry? The dukedom of Clarence?

WBR,

Sergey

Lady Marmalade 11-15-2005 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapple
Hello Nicole,

We Russians know how to defend ourselves, whether from the Germans or from the British! :-)

But let's not digress, what other royal dukedoms are available for William and Harry? The dukedom of Clarence?

WBR,

Sergey

Sergey,

You are very kind. Ochen blogodarno..I hope that is correct in Russian to say thank you. :)

That will be interesting...William will automatically become the Duke of Cornwall when his father assumes the throne.

Harry...well, I assume Andrew will still be alive, so York is out.

I know there is a listing of royal dukedoms by importance, but I can't find it....

Mapple 11-15-2005 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Sergey,

You are very kind. Ochen blogodarno..I hope that is correct in Russian to say thank you. :)

Ah! That's very good! A minor correction, though -- 'Ochen blagodaren/blagodarna' (depending on the speaker's gender). :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
That will be interesting...William will automatically become the Duke of Cornwall when his father assumes the throne.

I hope that the Queen is going to live long enough to grant him some title on his marriage, just like future George V was made Duke of York.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Harry...well, I assume Andrew will still be alive, so York is out.

I know there is a listing of royal dukedoms by importance, but I can't find it....

I agree on York... A listing of the dukedoms by importance -- I don't know on what possible basis it could have been compiled. :confused:

Elspeth 11-15-2005 02:04 PM

Clarence is a fairly senior dukedom; Cambridge is another royal dukedom that's dormant at the moment.

These days, with children tending to live longer and royal princes not rushing off to war every couple of years, the chances are that just about any dukedom that's conferred will remain with that line and won't be available again for a later monarch to confer on a family member.

I suppose that with the current trend toward downsizing the royal family that might not be a bad thing, but it's a shame to see traditional royal dukedoms disappear from the royal family and become regular dukedoms, which is what seems to be happening with the Kent and probably the Gloucester ones.

selrahc4 11-15-2005 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade
Each monarch has the right to assign the royal dukedoms to their sons. However, Cornwall (from Scotland) is automatic for the eldest son and York is reserved for the second son.

While the York dukedom for the second son has certainly been a tradition and pattern, I don't think it's reserved. After all, if Prince Andrew would have a son, it would pass down his line the way the Kent and Gloucester titles have so far, making it impossible to reserve.

It's interesting to me that Queen Victoria did not give her second son the York title; and in fact did not use Kent or Gloucester, etc for any of her sons. Could it be because these titles were closely associated with her uncles and their somewhat disreputable qualities?

pollyemma 11-15-2005 02:07 PM

so prince harry could be made Duke of Clarence?

also, if Andrew had had a son would he have become the next duke of York?

pollyemma 11-15-2005 02:09 PM

one more question: the dukedoms like Gloucester and Kent, is there any benefit to them besides a title? do the dukes get income from their duchies?

also, do either the gloucesters or the kents actually have homes in their duchies?

selrahc4 11-15-2005 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pollyemma
the dukedoms like Gloucester and Kent, is there any benefit to them besides a title?

No

Quote:

Originally Posted by pollyemma
do the dukes get income from their duchies?

No. There are no lands or investments connected to the titles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pollyemma
also, do either the gloucesters or the kents actually have homes in their duchies?

Not sure, but I don't think so. If they do, it would be entirely coincidental.


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